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Save you a bit of rooting as they are scattered about in it fairly well...

Cheers. The rules numbers seems to indicate growth in the number of players, 4th ed selling 800k on release, then 5th selling 930k on release.

I don't think the only codex we see through a full cycle is Space Marines which drop from $265k (4th ed release) to $194k (5th ed release).

So maybe vanilla marines are just not the kings they once were?

Ooo.... Rhinos! That might be a good evergreeen product, you get a rhino-using codex every year or two and the only competing product is the Chaos rhino.

they compete with Razorbacks though, especially when after a while people eventually figured out they (used to ) cost the same as a rhino but with extra parts.

Am i reading this correctly? they lost the sales figures in 2008-2009 for blood angels?

I think Imperial Guard is also version to version (or nearly so) though I would need to double check what month the 3rd Edition book was released in 2003. Remember the numbers are based off from a GW FY - so things like the 4th Edition Codex Eldar - released in 2006 was entirely posted to FY2007.

When trying to figure out growth/decrease or flat - you need to look at the price during each FY and split that to figure units. Codices went from $20 to $22 to $25 all the way up to $30 I think in 2012. The 40K Rulebook went from $50 to $57 or so in FY2010 (which means 5th probably was flat over 4th when you calculate across their whole lifespan).

 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
Am i reading this correctly? they lost the sales figures in 2008-2009 for blood angels?

The physical BA codex went out of print around then and was replaced with a WD minidex.

 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
Am i reading this correctly? they lost the sales figures in 2008-2009 for blood angels?

If memory serves me - that probably would have been the era of the WD Codex for Blood Angels. Nothing to see, nothing to sell.

If the rulebook numbers are accurate it can give us a rough estimate of the number of players, on the assumption that most people buy the new edition when it comes out.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If the rulebook numbers are accurate it can give us a rough estimate of the number of players, on the assumption that most people buy the new edition when it comes out.

Would tend to agree...though it appears that this might be another instance where things tend to split, merge and reform again...over in the "What significance/size/impact is the 'online community'?" thread - I used it to just crunch some rough numbers to give a broad range of what the player base might be in the US (and how it might hypothetically be extended out to the rest of the world).

The cliff notes version is that in the US - there are probably somewhere around 60,000 to 120,000 active 40K customers (with 90,000 being the sweet spot) with another 30,000 to 60,000 active WFB customers (with around 45,000 being the sweet spot). Extended globally based on the North American Market being roughly 25% of GWs sales - it would work out to 440,000 to 660,000 total active customers. I had heard from an associate a number in the 400,000-500,000 (back in 2009...though looking at 4th Edition sales numbers and 5th Edition sales numbers...there hasn't been a significant change) - which meshes well enough with the calculated figure.

There are two dissenting opinions over there as well which question the methodology...or at least the conclusion of the methodology.

You can also draw some conclusions based on the first year of a Codex release versus the popularity of a given army (useful opposition research if you are a 3rd party bits manufacturer). Space Marines are definitely the flagship - but Imperial Guard look like they are giving it a strong run for its money and may have even beat Vanilla Marines in their 5th Edition releases (Both IG and SM were released in FY2009...with SM being at the beginning of the year and IG being at the end of the year - and the IG putting up substantially better numbers). CSM also appear to have outsold the regular SM as well even before doing any pricing adjustments (with a release in early FY2008).

Unfortunately, there isn't much regarding the various Xenos armies in this chart - though Eldar do make a good showing when compared with the other human based armies. Sort of makes you wonder if GW isn't cannibalizing their Space Marine sales with all the various versions of marines and neglecting the non-human armies. Dark Angels and Black Templars both looked a bit uninspiring, in terms of sales figures. Space Wolves and Blood Angels may not be much better either when the codex pricing is taken into account.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Save you a bit of rooting as they are scattered about in it fairly well...

I'd love to see the volume sales of these books with price per unit at the current FY. That would show how much the inflated prices account for those figures.

 Morachi wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Save you a bit of rooting as they are scattered about in it fairly well...

I'd love to see the volume sales of these books with price per unit at the current FY. That would show how much the inflated prices account for those figures.

You'd have to dig out the prices and do the math. Sales is all we have unfortunately and you can best GW is not happy even this much is public.

Amusing thought on these numbers coming out. With marines not looking as strong as everyone though, will we be seeing instead a swarm of not-IG rip offs? This release is a gold mine for third party sculptors. They have direct information on what actually sells.

On those numbers for determining players base, looking to be around 38 - 39,000 copies were sold. Assumed a 55% of sales through GW stores and 45% through FGS at 60% cover price. Though that doesn't mean that is an accurate number. People who don't buy the book and rely on others and those who wait for the box set book likely make up a significant chunk. Growing up, playing group of me and four friends, only I had the book. At the FLGS, 1/3 the players did not buy the hard cover 8th book when it came out. Anecdotal, but still demonstrates book sales are not the be-all-end-all.

The sloppy math and large upwards adjustments I used should fairly well cover things like that (and starter set rulebooks too). The 90,000 number which is where I feel it is most likely to be is about 2 1/2 times your figure for sold copies. Between this and other information - it generally coincides nicely.

You are right though regarding the 3rd party production - though it seems a lot of that is being slipped past right now. There is a lot of area that could be expanded on - especially for the guard which are even more varied than the Space Marine figure lines could ever hope to be. Back in the old IG codex, they had that 2 page spread of 30 or 40 different IG regiments with their different thumbnail sketches and little blurp under them.

The downside of course being that because of the variety and nature of the guard - you really need a more significant commitment to do them than you might need putting out shoulder pads or character models which work with existing GW IG.

Would be hard pressed to call them "rip-offs" though. Very little about the guard is unique when compared to any other infantry based army. Capitalizing on those Eldar sales figures though....that would be a bit more difficult due to the more distinctive nature of the Eldar styling (though I can think of a dozen or so different Space Elves who like to wear body suits with shoulder boards off the top of my head in other fiction).

And considering how much less competition there is in that particular portion of the 3rd party market - it may well be something that you could make a solid go of (especially targeting pricier GW figures like Wraith Guard and the existing Finecast figures).

There are heaps of "not-IG" futuristic infantry models on the market. All of GW's Imperial Guards stylings, including the vehicles and guns, are based on historical designs anyway, so you just refer to a historical original and make a "futurised" version.

So far no-one has done "not-IG" armies based on pre-19th century uniforms, which might be fun.

While there are a lot of figures which are futuristic infantry - a lot of them sort of fail to hit the boxes to become a "not-IG" army. Pig Iron does a pretty good job in selling different heads and what not (as do a few other companies) - but I am always surprised at how few complete armies use other figures as their core.

As far as pre-19th century goes...haven't seen too much, though there is plenty available to convert (especially with a large number of plastics that have come out for historical gamers). I have noticed a bit of tunnel vision though for a lot of 40K gamers in regarding to getting outside of their comfort zones. Books have become more focused on what figures GW sells as opposed to the background that was put in place years ago - so if you were to model something like Remus Crushers (based on Roman Gladiators) or Bushmen of Serica (Boer War type figures) for your IG regiment...most people would likely have a bit of a cow even though both are actual "official" regiments designed by GW.

But - should a company (or individual) go through and do a comprehensive army (like the upcoming KS for female infantry) - I think it might work. It needs to cover a fairly large swath of figures though in order to check all the various boxes of an IG army list, and that can be a tall order for a new company.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
While there are a lot of figures which are futuristic infantry - a lot of them sort of fail to hit the boxes to become a "not-IG" army. Pig Iron does a pretty good job in selling different heads and what not (as do a few other companies) - but I am always surprised at how few complete armies use other figures as their core.

Victoria Miniatures has some really good kits for this purpose. One problem though is that they are very expensive-- even more so than GW metal IG. While they are better than GW metal IG (IMO), 50 USD for 10 guys that only cost 50 points in game is a tough price point. That's getting into Forge World territory, and realistically FW Elysians or Death Korps are much better-- albeit substantially less customizable. I think Victoria Miniatures are great for customization bitz and conversions but a little too expensive for entire armies, especially given the fact that some events will not let you use an army of Victoria miniatures and will let you use Elysians or Death Korps.

 Kingsley wrote:
Victoria Miniatures has some really good kits for this purpose. One problem though is that they are very expensive-- even more so than GW metal IG.

At Oz prices, they're the same price as GW's guard models.

...especially given the fact that some events will not let you use an army of Victoria miniatures and will let you use Elysians or Death Korps.

How many events is that realistically going to be, these days, other than small tournies run in stores that don't sell Vic Minis?

 insaniak wrote:

...especially given the fact that some events will not let you use an army of Victoria miniatures and will let you use Elysians or Death Korps.

How many events is that realistically going to be, these days, other than small tournies run in stores that don't sell Vic Minis?

Store tournaments may be small, but I can go to a store tournament every week if I want.

 insaniak wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Victoria Miniatures has some really good kits for this purpose. One problem though is that they are very expensive-- even more so than GW metal IG.

At Oz prices, they're the same price as GW's guard models.

Almost the exact same price - especially since Victoria switched to trading under USD as opposed to AUD. That $50 ends up being $48 or so Australian...same price as a box of plastic...

 insaniak wrote:

...especially given the fact that some events will not let you use an army of Victoria miniatures and will let you use Elysians or Death Korps.

How many events is that realistically going to be, these days, other than small tournies run in stores that don't sell Vic Minis?

That is the big thing. Realistically, any tournaments now should not have a problem with armies that are entirely non-GW figures. Tournament organizers who write their rules otherwise have deeper issues to deal with... Stores shouldn't have any more problem with Victoria Minis than they do the large swaths of the GW catalog that are direct only.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are heaps of "not-IG" futuristic infantry models on the market. All of GW's Imperial Guards stylings, including the vehicles and guns, are based on historical designs anyway, so you just refer to a historical original and make a "futurised" version.

So far no-one has done "not-IG" armies based on pre-19th century uniforms, which might be fun.

You don't know Colonel Gravis stuff?
http://colgravis.blogspot.jp/

I am aware of it, however Praetorians are based on British infantry of the Sudan and Zulu war era -- 1880s roughly -- and so are not pre-19th century.

I was thinking more of the possibility of an IG army made using say 1700s figures in long coats and tricorn hats, or Persian Immortals of the Graeco-Persian Wars.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
While there are a lot of figures which are futuristic infantry - a lot of them sort of fail to hit the boxes to become a "not-IG" army. Pig Iron does a pretty good job in selling different heads and what not (as do a few other companies) - but I am always surprised at how few complete armies use other figures as their core.

Agree there are a lot of armies that add parts of a not-IG army, but none that really go full throttle like some of the companies that do full not-SM armies. Vic Miniatures is the only one I'm aware that goes for the full package and does it well. Sick and tired of some them. By focusing on the GW SM aesthetic they limit themselves. IG can allow for a far larger variety.

And am looking forward to the Raging Heroes one.

Just to add, sad there isn't a good, not-Valhallan/WW2 Soviet winter alternative.

I have to sympathise with you somewhat, especially regarding your experiences in your GW store.

I consider myself fairly new to the game of Warhammer itself (although I have played Blood Bowl, LotR and other GW games), having only just assembled a 1,000 point army and have played a total of 3 proper games (all against my son, played in the living room) and a couple of trial games to get used to the rules.

I used to enjoy taking my son to GW to play a game. He started with the Beginner Sessions on Sundays and had a reasonable amount of time to play a game. Then we started going to the Saturday sessions so that he could get some experience playing against other gamers.

His first real game with his proudly painted Skaven army, and the GW staff member pitted him against 4 players - 2 brothers sharing an army of High Elves, a third an experienced and older player with a big unit of Tomb Kings and the staff member himself giving them gaming advice. My son (11 at the time) almost left in tears.

When I finally painted my own army of 1,000 point Vampire Counts, I went down to the store for a game. The event for the day was advertised on facebook as Staff Challenge and was Warhammer ONLY (not 40K or LotR) and I posted on the page to say I would be going.

I got there and was told by the Store Manager that the event was cancelled due to not having enough staff players for it and we should have let them know, either by phoning or posting on facebook (I felt like saying - "Do you ever actually check your own event postings on facebook to see if anyone has responded?").

He then said "You can still set up and play against another player". I thought "Fair enough - I don't mind who I play against as long as I get to play someone I've never played before".

I was about to start setting up then I was told I would be playing my son (I'm thinking "What? We could have stayed at home for that"). Then I we found out that we would be playing on a 2' by 4' section of the gaming board because the other 4' x4' section was going to be used by 40K players INCLUDING A THIRD STAFF MEMBER who had just turned up.

We had no room to put our cases etc. while setting up (my son was even told to move his boxes out of the way, wherever he tried to put them), barely enough room on the (joke of a) gaming table, and to top it all we only had an hour of gaming time.

The store manager was very apologetic afterwards, though. I think he saw in my face how much of a farce I thought the whole thing had been.