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As someone posted in the thread about the ridiculous showing GW put up at a recent convention, it could be that they are trying to set themselves up for a buyout. It seems like the only logical explanation for the choices they have been making.

As far as my allegiance to GW, they burned my bridge over Finecast. It wasn't that I loved metal, it was that they were pissing on my leg and telling me it was raining. And then they tried selling me a towel to wipe it up with.

I haven't been in a GW store in three years. People liking GW isn't just the result of GW's sinister marketing tendrils or whatever, it's the result of GW putting out legitimately good products. Probably two dozen people were at one of the local stores at midnight last night to pick up Tau stuff as soon as possible. They had probably 30 Tau Codexes on the shelf and one of the guys at the store said that he expected to sell most or all of them in the upcoming weekend.

To me, that speaks of a company that knows their base well and is putting out good products. There's a reason that GW got to where they are, and despite what a lot of the haters and naysayers say they still have the ability to release interesting and appealing products.

OP, "Dakka Discussions" is perhaps one of the most negatively-biased places possible to start a thread about Games Workshop. You need only look at the signatures of several of the posters in this thread to see what kind of ingrained opinions you're dealing with here.

If they knew their customers they wouldnt have the supply issues which have been the subject of many complaints in the past few months (from the flyers to the Tau themselves).

 Kingsley wrote:
I haven't been in a GW store in three years. People liking GW isn't just the result of GW's sinister marketing tendrils or whatever, it's the result of GW putting out legitimately good products. Probably two dozen people were at one of the local stores at midnight last night to pick up Tau stuff as soon as possible. They had probably 30 Tau Codexes on the shelf and one of the guys at the store said that he expected to sell most or all of them in the upcoming weekend.

To me, that speaks of a company that knows their base well and is putting out good products. There's a reason that GW got to where they are, and despite what a lot of the haters and naysayers say they still have the ability to release interesting and appealing products.

OP, "Dakka Discussions" is perhaps one of the most negatively-biased places possible to start a thread about Games Workshop. You need only look at the signatures of several of the posters in this thread to see what kind of ingrained opinions you're dealing with here.

And which more-objective forum should he post it in? One that is going to paint a gleaming picture of the retail great that is Games Workshop? One that is going to illustrate the love they have for their fans, the arduous pursuit of marketing and inspiring interest in newcomers so the hobby can grow and thrive? Where is that forum? I'd like to hear from the folks that believe the aforementioned values.

I think it is funny that your barometer for how incredibly well they are doing is the fact that the store you visited said he "expected" to sell 30 Tau Codices. Be still my heart.

And the only negative signature in this entire thread is mine. Exaggerate much?

 puma713 wrote:
And the only negative signature in this entire thread is mine. Exaggerate much

It's Kingsley. Talk to him long enough and he'll start to talk about how GW prices haven't gone up and have actually gone down.

Hmm...

A good question.

To be honest I think the set of gamers you play with makes or breaks the game. Like anything in life the people you surround yourself with will have an effect on the game you play. I am lucky in that I have about 7 regular opponents who are good friends and top chaps to play against so 40k doesn't become boring for me. We get to spend our Thursday nights having a good chat, being competitive with our toy soldiers and showing each other what we've painted/converted etc. Sometimes I think people take toy soldiers a tad too seriously...even if you have invested a lot of time and money that's YOUR choice and it's not the end of life, it's a hobby, and whilst it's not ultra cheap in the UK when you consider the time you spend building/painting/playing with it (1000s of hours per model over the years!) I can stomach purchasing new stuff (discount stores!)

I also play Flames of War (brilliant game but even on their own forums you get similar experience to here) and used to play Infinity (Loved the models and to an extent, the game but I have much more fun with 40k) so don't be afraid to try new things either just remember to play with decent guys and your games will be much more fun!

 Kingsley wrote:
the haters and naysayers

*Realists.

Though there are some as blinded by bile as those blinded by the shine of their armour.


Also OP, counteract the prices with Ebay, FLGS (non-GW, sometimes their prices are a little better but most of the time the gaming atmosphere definitely is so it can be worth dropping some cash in them sometimes to support them) and the swapshop. Buy in store, GW'll just want more.

I am not happy in which way GW is going but thanks to the news and rumors thread i have been introduced to many.. many.. many.. many.. alternative game systems and miniature makers! things are looking up for us gamers!

 puma713 wrote:
And which more-objective forum should he post it in? One that is going to paint a gleaming picture of the retail great that is Games Workshop? One that is going to illustrate the love they have for their fans, the arduous pursuit of marketing and inspiring interest in newcomers so the hobby can grow and thrive? Where is that forum? I'd like to hear from the folks that believe the aforementioned values.

40k General Discussion, on this very board, would probably be a much better place to get a realistic view.

HBMC wrote:It's Kingsley. Talk to him long enough and he'll start to talk about how GW prices haven't gone up and have actually gone down.

Which is unambiguously true for many armies if you adjust for inflation, and true for some even if you don't. "GW constantly and flagrantly increases prices beyond inflation" is essentially a myth, though like many popular myths I suspect it will prove hard to dispel.

To the OP: There are far too many games and model companies to get bogged down looking at just GW. If a GW store is your only answer, housing games at your own home or a friend's with friends and family if possible is a better choice as you'll be free to choose what you want. GW stores only allow GW product on the tables with few exceptions (self made or sparse other company bits) which means they more or less dictate your hobby to their four walls. You've seen and compared the GW prices so you have an understanding how bad it can be for you compared to another country.

If you're looking for gaming, you can try other companies or board games. Other companies have been putting out much more organized, intuitive and streamlined rules. Board games like Catan or Elder Sign are just good fun and they're cheap and there's a ton of them.

If you're looking for modeling, there are dozens of model making companies that do just that and do it better than GW. Reaper is probably the biggest name out there in this type of business and they have an extensive catalogue of miniatures.

If you're looking for a story, pretty much any board game or model game has one. Many people will cite 40k lore as good, but this is sort of a fallacy. 40k has been subject to numerous retcons of varying scale and a highly decentralized story telling method. Even in their Horus Heresy series, their most consistent presentation, they're still inconsistent in portrayals and descriptions. They have an everything is cannon, nothing is cannon approach which signals that they cannot get their act together and present a cohesive universe. Instead, they rely on you to pick through what ever they shotgun at you and hope for the best. Other story lines tend to be more solid, but not without faults, for instance Warmachine is often cited for excessive plot armor in the stories. Many of these faults come from structural problems due to writing inexperience or requirements of a game universe.


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 Kingsley wrote:

40k General Discussion, on this very board, would probably be a much better place to get a realistic view.

No, that would get a view from a current 40k player's perspective.

I have been a member of DakkaDakka since some time in 2005. In my experience the negative feeling towards GW has been rising for several years. The trigger points have been, not in any order of time or importance;

Rapid price increases
Finecast
Slow release of codexes, especially for non-Imperial factions
Pogrom against Bloodbowl fan sites
Case against Chapter House
Clampdown on PR and advance information
Exchange rate in Australia
Closing down game-playing in the shops
No advancement in the timeline
Retconning key points of fluff
Promoting unpainted armies through 'Ard Boyz
Stopping official competitions and shows
White Dwarf
The official forums, gone
The annual worldwide campaigns, gone
Chapter Approved, gone
"Specialist" games effectively gone
Confusion and erratic releases of errata and FAQs

These things can be looked at in various ways. Some people are interested from a business/legal angle. Others take a moral view, for or against GW as a "good" company (hence the accusations of "white knights" and "haters".)

The realistic viewpoint though, is, how does this affect my hobby experience?

When you look at that list, how much actually enhanced the hobby experience, especially for veterans, who are more likely than newcomers to be a member of a site like this?

However, it's important to remember that there are two aspects to the hobby. One is the GW HHHobby, in which you play GW models, on GW terrain, built and painted with GW tools, with GW rules, at GW competitions and shops. (Not that last bit so much, any more…)

The other is the "real" war-games hobby, in which you play whatever games on whatever terrain you like. That includes playing with GW models and rules if you like them, or using GW models in other rulesets or using non-GW models in GW rules.

If GW collapsed, none of your models and rules would vanish. There would be a fire sale during which to pick up any units you lacked in your army. Then you would be stuck with whatever edition of the rules and your codex were around at the end.

From a business viewpoint, discussion and argument has gone on for several years about whether GW is healthy as a company. After the LotR boom, sales and profits dropped off a cliff, and GW has been bumping along. The profits have increased, thanks largely to efficiency savings, but there is a suspicion that a fall in unit sales has been masked by higher prices. In that view, GW have been making a lot of mistakes which alienated veterans, who go on to reduce the number of newcomers into the HHHobby by not promoting it, and moving to other games.

But let's not be too pessimistic. The 40K rules (at least) seem to have stabilised quite well in 6th edition. The rate of release of codexes has picked up a lot and the xenon armies are catching up. There are plenty of new model kits. It looks like Finecast may get phased out in favour of polystyrene.

So I am hopeful that things are going to improve.

 Surtur wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

40k General Discussion, on this very board, would probably be a much better place to get a realistic view.

No, that would get a view from a current 40k player's perspective.

If only that were the case. Were 40k General Discussion restricted to people who currently play 40k, this forum would be a lot nicer.

 Banicks wrote:


Having looked into starting the hobby after painting the starter kit, I'm discovering the negative perspective here on Dakka, and amoungst long-term players (kept at a whisper in store) have regarding GW's policies and the future of GW being very much up in the air long-term.

Collated with the simple fact that Australians pay practically 100-150% more on top of British Pound prices, I'm beginning to think, is this really a hobby I want to get into?

What could happen tomorrow, prices could drop suddenly because GW realise hey we need to turn around. But I get the feeling they won't. Ultimately my question is this, has it always been like this, or is it reaching such a pinnacle now that if you were to pretend you were in my position, or a newbies position considering starting out.....is it worth it, or would you recommend to boycott and let it die out or down until the overall picture is clear?

I realise the value is in my eyes, if I enjoyed the hobby, but I'm having trouble breaking into the scene at the GW store for two reasons. The social groups there are already formed, experienced and knowledgeable - and I am a noob. The second, I'm most definitely guided under the staff members wing to ensure...shall we say, a certain direction and interest is maintained, and any negative influences are avoided - to the young child or younger man, this may seem exceptional customer service, but being experienced in my years I can see it is a great tactic to befriend ones'....finances through interest. Especially so when the friendly staff member became uneasy and avoided many direct questions regarding what is commonly spoken on here.

Perhaps I should stick to Risk?

Not reading the other answers, I would definitely start a cheaper and a superior tactically game, such as Infinity. War40K does not give me the enjoyment it did, after I embraced the ruleset of Infinity - and a playable army comes at around 100 USD not 500 USD like in War40K.

Knowing what I know now, I'd not start Warhammer 40K.

GW is not the hobby. I don't get why people keep saying it is. If gw died the hobby wont end. GW would but the wargaming hobby would still be around.

Why limit yourself to gw, this is part of the problem with people like the op. I don't mean to be an ass but look around. Why limit yourself with a company who does nothing for the hobby but only for their shareholder's

Motograter wrote:
GW is not the hobby. I don't get why people keep saying it is.

What constitutes the hobby is completely personal. If someone only plays 40k through either ignorance of other games or inability to play other games for various reasons, 40k is the hobby. Considering GW still holds the most amount of players, to most people who play wargames, GW is the hobby.

Motograter wrote:
Why limit yourself to gw, this is part of the problem with people like the op. I don't mean to be an ass but look around. Why limit yourself with a company who does nothing for the hobby but only for their shareholder's

He made it quite clear that he finds it hard to start other games due to lack of people to play against, being that his LGS is a GW store. That's why, to him, GW is the hobby.

I can appreciate the OPs situation with the GW being the only local game store. My advice is to post on Dakkas "Find a Game" forum regardless of whether or not you end up taking up 40k. You will probably find some locals with places to game.

I think GW policies in Australia are particularly bad. If I lived there I would not consider getting into a GW game. However, if you are dead set on a 28mm dark sci fi large battle game then 40k it is. If you are not, you may want to look into Infinity, War Machine, Mercs, or Dropzone Commander. Infinity and Mercs are very inexpensive for wargames. A starter for Infinity is not much more expensive than the GW paint set (in Australia it may even be less expensive.) The set comes with roughly half of the models to play a 300 point (large) game. The rules are also free online. The Mercs starter is slightly more, but the game is always played with five models, so the investment is still small.

I'd like to add, in my opinion, the future of 40k is in no way bound to GW. Outside of GW stores there are, and have always been lots of players that keep the spirit of the first days, substituting what they don't own (formerly partly just because there were no models, partly because the first rules encouraged you to design your own vehicles) with sometimes fantastic kitbashes, scratchbuilts and proxies. You don't have a community outside of GW stores? Make one! Look for a room to use regularly, have meetings to build your own terrain, be creative! Break free! 40k is so much bigger than what GW made from it - if only they would recognice that, they would prosper...

Going slightly offtopic, I've seen lots of people mention the price of the hobby as a "bad" thing. Whilst GW is more expensive than most other wargaming companies I still think that as a hobby it is pretty damn cheap.

I have 2 armies for 40k, and an army for Warhammer (and a bunch of stuff for other games to, but lets keep to GW for now) in the 20 years I've been playing, counting going to conventions, paints, scenary and eveything I have probably spent around £10k on GW stuff.

Now lets look at my other hobby, which I've been doing for 2 years, of Archery. Here I spent £3k on a reasonable bow - certainly not the best around - and another £1k on accessaries. I spend £200 every 3 months on a new set of arrows and £150 every 6 months on a new target. I also need to spend £120 a month in club membership, and whilst I havn't been to a tournament yet the cost of these is also much higher than wargame tournaments. Over a similar 20 year period I really wouldn't be surprised if I spend closer to £50k on Archery.

So, whilst GW is an expensive hobby when compared to other wargames (and I suppose CCGs should probably be in there too as they tend to attract the same people) in terms of a hobby it's actually surprisingly cheap. Obviously this is based on the UK, in Australia it may well be that other hobbies are much cheaper and GW wargaming is very expensive over there.

Collecting local leaves is definitely a cheaper hobby. That doesn't mean squat. A lot of hobbies are cheaper than wargaming. That doesn't mean squat.

 curran12 wrote:
Part of the problem with Dakka (and any online board) is an echo chamber effect. In all honest, most of the folks here are not all that upset or negative, but the ones you hear from the most are the most upset ones and they just feed off of it and create a sense of overall negativity. So generally I'd ignore what a board is doing when it comes to your enjoyment of the hobby. Focus on those you play with. If they are okay, then that is your barometer.

That said, I would add that Dakka, while pretty cool most of the time, does have more than its fair share of negativity.

This. My sentiments exactly. It's infectious too.

I for one think GW are taking 40K in a really good direction based on the last 4 codex releases not being Space Wolves or GK level strong. It costs alot, but it's a ridiculous hobby when you think about it and a box of, say, Terminators represent more value on the time vs enjoyment graph than most, more expensive, video games

The online community has a way of making EVERYTHING seem terrible. But Ive played a long time, my oldest brother even longer then me, and I know a few guys locally that have played since I was a wee one. Its the people that have been in it a long time that seem to get annoyed/irritated by the way GW has been conducting their business. I see it, and Im smart enough to have said "Nope....no more, GW can have it until they lower prices and pull their heads from their asses" And I havnt touched the game since. I dont really miss it, and I havnt gotten rid of anything, because I know Ill go back to it someday, but for now, Im done with them. Ive moved into other gaming systems and so far Im really digging those

Great post Killkrazy, I think that's it in a nutshell.

To the OP - I think the viewpoint here is more negative because you generally have people who have spent a lot more time than most with the game, reading about GW, and following it's progress. The casual outsider (as someone pointed out a few posts above) can not know about these things, occassionally dabble in 40k and still enjoy themselves just fine - the problem comes where they have been within the GW hobby for a while, and are able to witness the changes taking effect first hand.

I've likened GW's behaviour, and its effect on the fanbase over the years, to the Monty Python Fish Slapping dance (Youtube it), with GW as the nimbly dancing, kipper-wielding man lightly slapping John Cleese in the face repeatedly. Each one of those tiny slaps might be the equivalent of a price rise, the nerfing of an army, Finecast, whatever. Eventually a 'threshold' is reached, and like John Cleese in the video, you feel compelled to lash out with your haddock, smash them round the head with it and knock them into the canal. But how many kipper-strikes each individual can take (or, somewhat perversely, they enjoy the feeling of a wet fish sliding off their cheek!) varies very much on the individual in question and what they deem to be important. (I realise I've just repeated what Killkrazy has said, but in a much less useful and much more ridiculous way!)

With that in mind, I've witnessed many times new users coming to the forum and, believing they are coming from a world of fluffy clouds and roses, to be shocked by what they perceive to be the level of negativity. How those users deal with this varies from sticking their fingers in their ears, perhaps just focusing on one part of the forum (either because they don't care about whatever the issue might be, or choose not to read about it). Sometimes they lash out in a sort of whirlwind of disbelief (think of the bit in the Matrix, when Morpheus has just revealed the Matrix to Neo for the first time), and end up getting banned, before coming back with a grudging acknowledgement that perhaps their is some fire making that smoke. Others, like Kingsley, occupy some kind of dark-matter parallel universe where Mother Teresa invaded from the East, murdering millions as she did so, people take their pet goldfish out for walks and GW is cheaper to buy today than it was 10 years ago
Finally, there is the worst sort who enjoy stirring and deliberately posting a contrary viewpoint just to try and get a rise out of the people who have quite obviously made an emotive post about something. Fortunately, these individuals are not common, and usually get bored after a while.

But I think most of us here are just gamers, modellers or painters who want want anyone would want - good products at a reasonable price. It's been painful at times watching GW change from a small, 'by the gamers, for the gamers' company into one 'operated by suits at all levels', and sometimes the worst, crass, aspects of that. But the company is still there, they still have a core of good design guys (who really just think the way we do, for the most part), and there is still the possibility that they will recognise some of the things being done well by their rivals and try and follow suit. And finally, if a GW is your only place to play then don't let any of this put you off. You can be a rational person about it - play whatever game, enjoy it, but at the same time you don't have to agree or disagree with everything that the company does mindlessly, like some kind of right or left wing political nutjob or football fan.

 puma713 wrote:

 Byte wrote:

 Zinderneuf wrote:
Have to admit, this forum is getting pretty bitter, almost as if it was cool to adopt a snide persona by much of the membership. Sad.

I think there some truth to this as well. Dakka's atmosphere is getting darker.

OP- GW isn't perfect, but either are gas prices(and a ton of other things) and I still like to drive. However, in most cases if one says something positive about GW they are branded fan boys and apologists. The whole thing is stupid. Some people just need to hate.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. The "haters" on Dakka are generally the ones that care the most about GW. We love the games, the lore, the amount of our own history that GW has been a part of. We want GW to succeed - we want them to keep churning out codices and rules and models. It is because of our love of the game and the future of the IP that we are so vocal and seemingly bitter. We disagree with what the company is doing and their business decisions that they're making. If we didn't care or simply hated GW, we wouldn't say anything and would just let GW fold in on itself.

It is because we care that we lash out so.

''

Is this a wargaming forum or a Narcotics Anonymous intervention?

Embrace the suck, let the hate flow!

40K is still interesting, the issues boil down to company decisions, and general ineptitude.

Dakka has always been darker. We're not here to parrot the party line, if you want that head over to warseer. Dakka is about truth and gaming, with a good dose of information, Number 6.

Overall a common rule with the internet is that people complain a lot more on it than praise things, overall 40k (as that is what you are interested in) prices go up each year, this can be somewhat negated by ordering online from a discount store, the current 6th ed books I think are great books and all balance well with each other, I think 40k is just more expensive than most people would like and there were some real balance issues in 5th edition, (still some in 6th ed, but I think less)

The only person you need to listen to is yourself, if you are willing to pay for warhammer 40k and you enjoy it, then go for it, no need to listen to random people on the internet if you like somthing.

 Surtur wrote:

If you're looking for a story, pretty much any board game or model game has one. Many people will cite 40k lore as good, but this is sort of a fallacy. 40k has been subject to numerous retcons of varying scale and a highly decentralized story telling method. Even in their Horus Heresy series, their most consistent presentation, they're still inconsistent in portrayals and descriptions. They have an everything is cannon, nothing is cannon approach which signals that they cannot get their act together and present a cohesive universe. Instead, they rely on you to pick through what ever they shotgun at you and hope for the best.

For storytelling in and the lore of the 40K universe, the Fantasy Flight RPG's replaced GW writing for me a long time ago. Because it has to focus on the armies and big wars, the lore from codexes feels rather "finished", often several editions ago, and you can end up with some rather silly one-upmanship in things getting bigger and badder.

There is still lots to like about GW and I adopt a take it or leave it approach with them.

If I don't like something they've produced or written, I change it, ignore it or do something different.

As for the prices, I scour ebay and independents for the best deals i.e. I never buy direct from the company anymore.

It was better when I finally got into the hobby about a year and a half ago (I was into the fluff/BL long before that). So I would say yes it has.

Being in and out of the hobby until a couple of years ago, no, it hasn't been "this bad". GW stuff has always been expensive, but worth the money. Nowadays, they just seem to want to cut out the middleman a little too much.

I think one of the worst things for the hobby has been the internet. A whole bunch of anonymous whining gets hobbyists no where.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

I think one of the worst things for the hobby has been the internet.

Come on man... that has to be one of the most ridiculous things I have read on here in a long time, I don't think you need to say why