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 Pacific wrote:
Others, like Kingsley, occupy some kind of dark-matter parallel universe where Mother Teresa invaded from the East, murdering millions as she did so, people take their pet goldfish out for walks and GW is cheaper to buy today than it was 10 years ago

I actually claim that that many armies are cheaper now than they were in 2004 if you adjust for inflation, and in some cases just plain cheaper. Certainly some units and perhaps armies have gone up in price, but the overall trend is very different.

One interesting thing is that a lot of people seem to think that I'm some kind of GW superfan. I'm actually not. I've been in the hobby since 1998-- but during a lot of that time, I was not playing GW games. When 4th edition 40k started up, I quit the game, since I didn't like the way it was headed. For a long chunk I only played Ætherverse, and then when that died I switched over to some homebrew systems. I only got back into GW when they published 5th edition Warhammer 40k, which IMO has put 40k on a very positive trajectory which we're still on.

I have no real loyalty to GW and would gladly switch to another manufacturer if that was what was popular, good, and being played locally. However, GW is so obviously underrated by the community here that I often feel like I need to provide a voice of reason in some of the GW-bashing threads.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Others, like Kingsley, occupy some kind of dark-matter parallel universe where Mother Teresa invaded from the East, murdering millions as she did so, people take their pet goldfish out for walks and GW is cheaper to buy today than it was 10 years ago

I actually claim that that many armies are cheaper now than they were in 2004 if you adjust for inflation, and in some cases just plain cheaper. Certainly some units and perhaps armies have gone up in price, but the overall trend is very different.

One interesting thing is that a lot of people seem to think that I'm some kind of GW superfan. I'm actually not. I've been in the hobby since 1998-- but during a lot of that time, I was not playing GW games. When 4th edition 40k started up, I quit the game, since I didn't like the way it was headed. For a long chunk I only played Ætherverse, and then when that died I switched over to some homebrew systems. I only got back into GW when they published 5th edition Warhammer 40k, which IMO has put 40k on a very positive trajectory which we're still on.

I have no real loyalty to GW and would gladly switch to another manufacturer if that was what was popular, good, and being played locally. However, GW is so obviously underrated by the community here that I often feel like I need to provide a voice of reason in some of the GW-bashing threads.

Now see, this is interesting. I can match your time in the hobby, almost exactly. I quit at the start of 3rd as I didn't like how different it was, and didn't appreciate that in many ways the differences were better for the game as a whole. Nevertheless, I stayed around the hobby, albeit mostly playing CCGs for a couple more years, before quitting entirely except books for almost 10 years. I returned to 40k mid 2010. So our hobby careers are, by and large, comparable.

Where we differ is that, while expensive, my perception of the VFM I was getting all those years ago was never too bad, even when I returned to war gaming, I wasn't too bothered by the prices. As time goes by however,my perception of the value I'm getting is getting lower and lower.

You can do all the mathematical shenanigans you want to try and prove your point, my gut tells me I'm being ripped off by GW to a greater degree than in any other time in our relationship. That is what is important, you may be able to argue that in real terms X boxed set is y% cheaper in real terms, but if I feel ripped off when I buy it, none of that is important.

I've said it before, every discussion on here about price isn't about price, it's about value. Everyone's perception of value will differ, but in many cases, this is where GW really suffers, they simply do not offer value for money to many people.

 puma713 wrote:
The "haters" on Dakka are generally the ones that care the most about GW.

I don't agree. The biggest haters are generally those who once played GW but now play Warmachine. These disaffected appear on a crusade to convert any and all by denigrating the GW game (all aspects). They are worse than reformed smokers, Amway sellers or those who have embraced a new religion.

I mean I'm happy for you but, no, I don't want to drink a different flavour of Kool-Aid

My favourite quote goes like this: "Time enjoyed wasting is not wasted time".

This quote can also be applied to money. If you "waste" your money, but enjoy doing so, then there's no problem, except I guess, in some circumstances.

And you'll always find negative press for things on the Internet, it's up to you to make your own judgement.

 Kingsley wrote:


I actually claim that that many armies are cheaper now than they were in 2004 if you adjust for inflation, and in some cases just plain cheaper. Certainly some units and perhaps armies have gone up in price, but the overall trend is very different.

...
...
.

Might you back up your claim with actual facts?

I think that some people are REALLY into the hobby, and as a result you can think things are worse than they are.

I mean, GW do some wacky stuff, but Internet aside it has little bearing on your real life, all that counts there is if you enjoy it, if you have good mates to play with, and a few hundred bucks spare.

Actually, probably less than that. As I said, most people on here have too many models frankly!

I reckon with eBay you could get a nice 1000k army for about 200 bucks.

If you like it, and you can arrord it, then do it.

And welcome brother!

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:


I actually claim that that many armies are cheaper now than they were in 2004 if you adjust for inflation, and in some cases just plain cheaper. Certainly some units and perhaps armies have gone up in price, but the overall trend is very different.

...
...
.

Might you back up your claim with actual facts?

What it basically amounts to: by picking a certain time frame, some models from some armies have gone from overpriced metal to overpriced plastic, thus became cheaper.

So if I had an army with a lot of temple guard, in Oz pricing they were $11 each for metal ones, but now GW have released plastic ones which are currently $6.90 each. So if I picked a timeframe before the metal to plastic conversion and had an army that used a lot of temple guard, the price of that army has reduced.

 Kilkrazy wrote:


Might you back up your claim with actual facts?

Examples are usually units where they went from individual blisters to plastic 3-packs, and the 2004 price of 3 blisters is more than the 2013 price of 1 box of 3 plastic models.

And then people say that doesn't count because it is an extreme example falsifying a point... and then compare catchans to catchans because they wouldn't want to use an extreme example to falsify a point.

And then if you mention PP has similar prices or even more expensive in some places model per model, you get told that models become 'cheaper' when you need less of them and that you are blind if you don't see it.

And then a mantic shill pops in and tells us how every model is too expensive and how awesome they are, and then someone brings up third party models being twice the cost of regular models but being cheaper somehow... Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it.

Then when the thread devolves into people quoting prices from 30% discounters, Internet recasting and "pay where you play! My FLGS sucks! I have No FLGS! Internet raarrrrrgh" Someone posts an internet meme and the thread is over.

You know how this 'price/cost' discussion goes.

Here are the prices for the Troops units for every 40k army (format is price (inflation-adjusted price)) compared between 2004 and now:

Assault Marines (for Blood Angels): 30 USD (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004 (Sergeants with special melee weapons bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per), 33 USD for 5 now, Sergeant special melee options included. (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Space Wolf Grey Hunters/Blood Claws: 30 (36.41) USD for 10 in 2004 (special weapon status unclear), 37.25 USD for 10 now with special weapons and special melee weapons included, plus tons of bitz (comparison unclear, probably increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Scouts with melee weapons: 20 (24.27) USD for 5 including Sergeant in 2004 (heavy bolter bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per): 25 USD for 5 now, heavy bolter included (price increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Scouts with bolters or shotguns: 8 (9.71) USD for 2 in 2004 (heavy bolter bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per), 25 USD for 5 now, heavy bolter included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Scouts with sniper rifles: 8 (9.71) USD for 2 in 2004 (Sergeant bought separately at 7 (8.50) per), 25 USD for 5 now, Sergeant and missile launcher option included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Tactical Marines: 30 (36.41) USD for 10 in 2004 (non-flamer special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 37.25 USD for 10 now with non-flamer special weapons included (price increase or decrease depending on loadout)

Bloodletters of Khorne: 45 (54.61) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Dæmonettes of Slaanesh: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease, but man I liked those old sculpts )
Horrors of Tzeentch: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Plaguebearers of Nurgle: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)

Chaos Space Marines: 25 (30.34) USD for 8 in 2004, 37.25 USD for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Dark Eldar Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004 (special/heavy weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD for one blaster and one shredder or 10 (12.14) USD for two Dark Lances) 29 USD for 10 now with all options included (price increase or inflation-adjusted price decrease depending on loadout)
Dark Eldar Wyches: 30 (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)

Eldar Dire Avengers: 30 (36.41) USD for 8 in 2004, 37.25 for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Eldar Guardians: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004 (heavy weapons platforms bought separately with two crew at 20 (24.27) USD per), 36.25 for 10 now with heavy weapons platform included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Grey Knights: 30 (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004 (special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 33 USD for 5 now with special weapons included (price decrease)
Grey Knight Terminators: 55 (66.75) USD for 5 in 2004 (special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 50 USD for 5 now with special weapons included (price decrease)

Imperial Guard plastics (Cadians, Catachans): 30 (36.41) USD for 20 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase)
Imperial Guard metals (Valhallans, Steel Legion, Vostroyans, Tallarn, Mordians): 35 (42.48) USD for 10 in 2004, 35 USD for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Necron Immortals: 10 (12.14) USD for 1 in 2004, 33 USD for 5 now (price decrease)
Necron Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 12 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 12 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Ork Boyz: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase, though new kit has options for special weapons and Nob)

Sisters of Battle: 35 (42.48) USD for 10 in 2004, 64 USD for 10 now (price increase)

Tau Fire Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 12 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 12 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Kroot Carnivores: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 16 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Termagants: 30 (36.41) for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 12 now (price increase)
Hormagaunts: 30 (36.41) for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 12 now (price increase)
Genestealers: 30 (36.41) for 12 in 2004, 30 USD for 8 now (price increase)

So overall, we see that of the 28 basic Troops kits, 6 have gone up in price since 2004, 4 went up or down depending on what loadout you took (and typically went down), 10 went down in price when you account for inflation, and 8 outright decreased in price without accounting for inflation. In other words, 65% of Troops choices have gone down in price since 2004. Since this comprises 8-9 years of nominal "price increases," it's clear that GW does not hike prices as much as many people think.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:


I actually claim that that many armies are cheaper now than they were in 2004 if you adjust for inflation, and in some cases just plain cheaper. Certainly some units and perhaps armies have gone up in price, but the overall trend is very different.

...
...
.

Might you back up your claim with actual facts?

What it basically amounts to: by picking a certain time frame, some models from some armies have gone from overpriced metal to overpriced plastic, thus became cheaper.

So if I had an army with a lot of temple guard, in Oz pricing they were $11 each for metal ones, but now GW have released plastic ones which are currently $6.90 each. So if I picked a timeframe before the metal to plastic conversion and had an army that used a lot of temple guard, the price of that army has reduced.

Could you do it with actual examples?

I did a study of all the Tau models from 2004 to 2010 (or 2011, I can't remember now) and found that some models inflated much faster than CPI.

However the Tau was always an 80% plastic army so there was not much example of metal moving to plastic.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Could you do it with actual examples?

I did. Look one post above yours.

One figure is not an army.

I personally think that from the miniatures side of things, GW has never been doing better. Right now exists the largest available selection of minis for the largest selection of armies and games there ever has been. At least from the plastics side of things, they are more advanced and user-friendly than they ever have been. The only flaw I can see is Finecast in the place of metal, and that's only from a quality and price standpoint. If they were to be the same cost as metals, and cast with a metal-level of quality, I would be hugely interested in buying into Finecast.

But.....from a company standpoint, GW has never been worse. Especially as a veteran player and long-term consumer (15 years) of GW products. They are increasingly giving out a feeling of "buy our stuff and get the hell out of our store- you're taking up valuable space". They are willfully ignorant of what it takes to be in touch with the consumer base- I honestly think they truly think that we should be kneeling and thanking them for being around, rather than thanking us for keeping their company alive.

They are also completely against the things that other miniatures companies are using to get their product to the fans. Closing all in-store gaming, when it is free advertising for each store, and made them feel like a true LGS. The threatening stance they are taking with bitz purveyors. They constantly harass third-party producers of bitz, when those third-party companies (generally) help buoy GW's own product, or at least the general 40K and Fantasy IP. The old deal with online shopping carts- when no other competing company seems to care one little bit.

It's a very different feel than 10-15 years ago. Back then they didn't give off such a feel of being such an old grump.

Those prices are wrong for '04.

The boxed sets were in the 20-25.00 range still. the larger armies had the 16-20 guy boxs, and the blisters were still along the lines of leftovers from the colored era's to that crazy art stuff they brought about with the newer styled sculpts. Case in point, the tyranids, orks, and IG.

Space marines were getting more love, and GW was reducing thier bits sales, reducing blister packs and that 39 buck increase was the after effect of the changes.

Fourth Edition (2004)The fourth edition of Warhammer 40,000 was released in 2004.[25] This edition did not feature as many major changes as prior editions, and was "backwards compatible" with each army's third-edition codex. The fourth edition was released in three forms: the first was a standalone hardcover version, with additional information on painting, scenery building, and background information about the Warhammer 40,000 universe. The second was a boxed set, called Battle For Macragge, which included a compact softcover version of the rules, scenery, dice, templates, and Space Marines and Tyranid miniatures. The third was a limited collector's edition. Battle for Macragge was a 'game in a box', targeted primarily at beginners. Battle for Macragge was based on the Tyranid invasion of the Ultramarines' homeworld, Macragge. An expansion to this was released called The Battle Rages On!, which featured new scenarios and units, like the Tyranid Warrior.

- 40K Wiki.

'04 was the Battle for MacCragge days. We still had hope, and the price increases started getting deeper with no lube around July or so of that year. YOUR prices were after that one.

AUG, SEP timeframe...

 Pacific wrote:
Come on man... that has to be one of the most ridiculous things I have read on here in a long time, I don't think you need to say why

It's the SoloFalcon we all know and love.

 Kingsley wrote:

Ork Boyz: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase, though new kit has options for special weapons and Nob)

It has never been better for orks... In addition to 16 boys, you needed 2 metal heavy weapon boyz for 8.99 and 2 Metal Nobz for 10$ each.

So two Units of 10 boyz actually cost 65.38 in 2004. I can get the same thing all in plastic for 58$ today.

Grots were metal and a 4pack was 8.99 and a slaver was like 8$

So 8 grots and a slaver were 25$+ and now they are 16.50$

Kanz were 20$ each, now 46$ bucks.

Nobz were 10$ each and now they 25$ for 5.

About 70% of my models I need are cheaper and better quality. And now I have models which never existed back then as well. They had some flops like the metal kommando/tankbustaz, but they ended up making a neat FW kit for the Kommandoz.

I am very happy about GW prices when it comes to being an Ork player... and when others quit, I get cheap models to loot for my army. While I haven't needed to buy that much from GW recently, if they drop new Ork models, I will be handing them a bunch of my money.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Those prices are wrong for '04.

I took them directly from this archive of the GW webstore in August 2004. Feel free to investigate yourself and form your own conclusions if you want. All this information is out there in the public view.

nkelsch wrote:It has never been better for orks... In addition to 16 boys, you needed 2 metal heavy weapon boyz for 8.99 and 2 Metal Nobz for 10$ each.

Very interesting, I did not know that! I suppose that means that the Orks actually went up or down in price depending on loadout despite the reduced size of their kit. Similarly I forgot to put Grots up on that list, and it looks like their price has dropped considerably with the new kit. You can tell I'm less familiar with the Orks!

To the OP...

Dakka can be a toxic environment. Make sure to keep your re-breather handy.

IMO, don't allow any amount of negativity regarding any game or company influence your decisions. Tune all these people out. If a particular game captures your interest, dive in head first and form your own opinion.

Yes - and what Grot 6 says is accurate. 2004 had a big mid year price increase:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040301084938/http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=Odd&odd=NewLayout&_do=Default&code=yes&game=3&database=5

Rhinos went from $25 to $30. Terminators went from $30 for 5 to $40 for 5...

If you look at the prices before the June/July price hike - they are significantly lower. Prices after the hike are already a step higher on the way to where we are now. Some things stayed the same...but a lot of things went up (and many of them went up significantly).

You're not attempting to say that Kingsley is cherry-picking his evidence to proove his point?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You're not attempting to say that Kingsley is cherry-picking his evidence to proove his point?

Surely not?

Catch me!

*swoon*

That would be trollish...and apparently I have been told that I am one...so...

For me though, it is really less about whether or not there has been an increase (or decrease) relative to inflation and more as to whether or not there has been an increase at all. If you look at other classes of "luxury" goods as everyone likes to say game materials are - you generally do not see them pegged to inflation at all. They might have a commodity related cost to them (cost of tin caused many companies to do price increases on metal miniatures) - but generally speaking these sorts of items remain the same or get less expensive over time.

When I look at how much I paid for a new CD, DVD or video game 10 or even 20 years ago (in the case of video games and CDs) it is almost exactly the same as what I pay for a new item today.

There are a few exceptions - though, really those are few and far between (notably when WotC did the d20 series they bumped the excepted cost for RPG related books up quite a bit for example) - but generally speaking..."luxury" products have flat pricing, it isn't tied to inflation at all.

Kingsley may have been correct in his statement that some army builds are cheaper today than they were in years past. Armies that are built from starter boxes today versus old metal stuff would be an example. However, by and large, it is much more expensive to build an army today than it was in the past. In addition to the price increases, GW has been lowering the points on many units. Necron Warriors are a good example. Thus you need more minis to fill out your force, and minis cost money.

For those who are interested in following the numbers...

The big price hike of 2004 was followed by the big drop in sales in the first half of FY2005 (from 79.8 million in the last half of 2004 FY which was before the hike to 71 million in the first half of 2005 FY...). Might be entirely unrelated though...

Some of the things people complain about really are a bit silly. I mean really who cares if GW shut its official forum down, the forum was just not useful and there are many, many forums. The White Dwarf magazine is not useful to anyone over 12 so just dont buy it and read the better and free articles that are on many hundreds of forums and blogs all over the internet.

If you have the misfortune to live in an area where there are only GW stores and no independent game stores, then their recent policies are definitely alienating people and hopefully there is a game club nearby. GW has abandoned their whole hobby center idea in practice if not in name or advertising.

GW has always been relatively expensive compared to its competitors but in my view it has only been in recent years that they have reached a point where the quality is not good enough for the premium price. The rules writing is especially bad and from what comes out of the mouth of Jervis and others is that they just cant be bothered to write decent rules. More than anything I find this attitude to be just intolerable and I wish they would fire the entire design team and start over fresh.

I think things are ironically a bit better in the US than the UK because we mostly have independent stores and dont have to put up with GW corporate owned stores. This insulates us from some of their more annoying practices like making veterans feel unwanted in the hobby. Also if you know the store owner and they are a decent person, when buying GW's expensive plastic crack cocaine you are also helping out someone you have a personal relationship with.

The complaints about finecast are generally well founded but there is an easy answer, dont buy any finecast.

Your numbers are wrong. I was there and made it a point to grab up a few extra boxed sets from Stoney Point,up in Richmond VA after I got the .... hot tip... at the time.

Back when 3 or 4 boxes would have been enough for some good mobs, specialists, and minimal bits gave you everything you needed. Those "online prices" are gak, as well.

Additionally- If you need reminding, that was also the time around when they had at least 3 good events, and ample support going with all three games, full stores with no room to move, and a steady diet of paint and play, in store events, company events, and that really good Lustria world wide campaign.

The prices you got were from almost gak near christmas of that year.

Want to dig back into dakka's archives? We still have that conversation in there, somewhere.

I've been visiting Dakka and occasionally some other gaming boards since about 1999 or 2000. Even when I stopped playing any tabletop games for about 5 years I was still a regular lurker and enjoyed just keeping up with the hobby.

I started coming to Dakka when they were regularly posting giant multi-table mega-battle reports on the site back in 3rd edition 40K.

That and Batreps.com (RIP) were a big part of getting my 14 year old self into the hobby.

Unfortunately, even for a pessimist like myself things have gotten almost unbearably negative at times. Not for just GW, but for other games and systems too.

Unfortunately, even for a pessimist like myself things have gotten almost unbearably negative at times. Not for just GW, but for other games and systems too.

You know that is a very good point on what you commented on. The negativity of other game systems. Some of this is economy driven as I have seen first hand to other people, while others it is the game system itself. Myself is something different. I'm old skool. I'm into the social interaction aspect of teaching the hobby to others in a social environment. And have fun.

The current GW business model has remove this aspect. Many of their loyal customers are dismayed and do feel betrayed by what Games Work Shop is doing. This lack of social involvement with their customer base is one of the reason for its current stressful state.

The way I see it, things only really started going bad, as in, notably worse than typical internet fan/hate-dom, was in May 2011 when they introduced Finecast, a price hike and the online sales embargo in the space of a month or so.

Since then, policies have become worse and a lot of good will hasn't just been eroded but stamped on.

The Tau thing is a good example of how bad things have become. It probably was a genuine mistake (that GW seems to have worked overtime now to try to correct, I think most stores are helped now), now had the default reaction of "GW are trying to mess with people." Whereas, a few years ago, it would have been, "oh, silly GW, what a bunch of noobs."

So, in my mind, things really are that bad now, with good reason.

 Kommisar wrote:
That and Batreps.com (RIP) were a big part of getting my 14 year old self into the hobby.

Ah man, I remember Batreps.com. What a great site! I wish there was something like that these days.