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Having looked into starting the hobby after painting the starter kit, I'm discovering the negative perspective here on Dakka, and amoungst long-term players (kept at a whisper in store) have regarding GW's policies and the future of GW being very much up in the air long-term.

Collated with the simple fact that Australians pay practically 100-150% more on top of British Pound prices, I'm beginning to think, is this really a hobby I want to get into?

What could happen tomorrow, prices could drop suddenly because GW realise hey we need to turn around. But I get the feeling they won't. Ultimately my question is this, has it always been like this, or is it reaching such a pinnacle now that if you were to pretend you were in my position, or a newbies position considering starting out.....is it worth it, or would you recommend to boycott and let it die out or down until the overall picture is clear?

I realise the value is in my eyes, if I enjoyed the hobby, but I'm having trouble breaking into the scene at the GW store for two reasons. The social groups there are already formed, experienced and knowledgeable - and I am a noob. The second, I'm most definitely guided under the staff members wing to ensure...shall we say, a certain direction and interest is maintained, and any negative influences are avoided - to the young child or younger man, this may seem exceptional customer service, but being experienced in my years I can see it is a great tactic to befriend ones'....finances through interest. Especially so when the friendly staff member became uneasy and avoided many direct questions regarding what is commonly spoken on here.

Perhaps I should stick to Risk?

Part of the problem with Dakka (and any online board) is an echo chamber effect. In all honest, most of the folks here are not all that upset or negative, but the ones you hear from the most are the most upset ones and they just feed off of it and create a sense of overall negativity. So generally I'd ignore what a board is doing when it comes to your enjoyment of the hobby. Focus on those you play with. If they are okay, then that is your barometer.

That said, I would add that Dakka, while pretty cool most of the time, does have more than its fair share of negativity.

It might be Dakka, but I have to confess that a number of players at our club who do not post here are in a similar state of mind.

As a vet of nearly 25 years, in some form or another, I can honestly say I've not known it this bad, but then the increased awareness the Internet bri GW may contribute to that.

Regardless, it's a fantastic time to be war gaming, so if you have misgivings about GW, why not explore some of the other options?

In a year, our club has gone from exclusively GW, and almost exclusively 40k, to regularly including Infinty, Warmahordes, X Wing and others, with 40k being perhaps half of what's played.

 curran12 wrote:
Part of the problem with Dakka (and any online board) is an echo chamber effect. In all honest, most of the folks here are not all that upset or negative, but the ones you hear from the most are the most upset ones and they just feed off of it and create a sense of overall negativity. So generally I'd ignore what a board is doing when it comes to your enjoyment of the hobby. Focus on those you play with. If they are okay, then that is your barometer.

That said, I would add that Dakka, while pretty cool most of the time, does have more than its fair share of negativity.

I can understand that.

But from your perspective, are things getting worse?

There are many ways into the hobby that don't involve GW.

If you enjoy painting/gaming there are many companies worth your time.

 Banicks wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Part of the problem with Dakka (and any online board) is an echo chamber effect. In all honest, most of the folks here are not all that upset or negative, but the ones you hear from the most are the most upset ones and they just feed off of it and create a sense of overall negativity. So generally I'd ignore what a board is doing when it comes to your enjoyment of the hobby. Focus on those you play with. If they are okay, then that is your barometer.

That said, I would add that Dakka, while pretty cool most of the time, does have more than its fair share of negativity.

I can understand that.

But from your perspective, are things getting worse?

I was looking at 40k because GW is ultimately my LGS, and there isn't much else unless I go for a 2 hour drive to where other hobby wargames are played.

I didn't even realize that there were this many haters and malcontents until I ventured online. I just played with my friends and enjoyed 40k in that capacity.

With that said, I agree with the above posters that said ignore the negativity and enjoy the game.

 Banicks wrote:

I can understand that.

But from your perspective, are things getting worse?

Compared to what? I don't take what Dakka says as gospel for my gaming experience. In my immediate area, there are decent events when I want them, and usually a pickup game whenever I have the itch. So all's well.

Am I ignorant of the complaints voiced here? Not at all. But those are not how I gauge my experience.

To the OP

Look at the data here at this site positive or negative. Read the posts that give a logical answer to what they are saying. A very good example is one game store owner who was a supporter with GW has now conveyed his concern with the recent policies being in placed on LFGS. There are literally hundreds of topics of concern about how GW's policies are hurting the bottom line. You.

Look at the situation where you live. Talk to the people playing at the games stores and see what is popular. Keep an open mind on what they say, but listen to how they say things about a situation.

Bad mouthing a company (or anyone in that manner) or giving praise without logical reasoning (and/or data) behind the comment generally denotes very narrow minded people and these are the kinds of people that can poison your environment.

Next there are other kinds of games than just 40K. Look at the other forums here on this site to take a good look at. 40K is not the "Hobby". Only a part of it.

 curran12 wrote:
Part of the problem with Dakka (and any online board) is an echo chamber effect. In all honest, most of the folks here are not all that upset or negative, but the ones you hear from the most are the most upset ones and they just feed off of it and create a sense of overall negativity. So generally I'd ignore what a board is doing when it comes to your enjoyment of the hobby. Focus on those you play with. If they are okay, then that is your barometer.

That said, I would add that Dakka, while pretty cool most of the time, does have more than its fair share of negativity.

This is largely accurate. I don't think I've been a part of any message board for any game, video, board or miniature based, that isn't largely negative. The people that are happy don't make post saying "I love GW and Space marines! YAY!" but the angry sorts will be making the hater threads.

That said, a lot of these hate threads have good reasons behind them. I've been playing for 15+ years now, and I've never seen the negativity reach this leave of fervor. GW seems to be making a lot of questionable decisions that don't do anything but hurt your average hardcore gamer and line their pockets. Combine that with the fact that there are so many opportunities that they have that they just ignore and it really makes you wonder if they will be around in a few years. Their utter lack of internet presence for example. Outside their online store they do almost nothing to support the game. Miniature War Gaming, a local online retailer in Canada posts battle reports, product reviews and tons of other things that help grow the hobby....but GW pulled the rug out from under them with their new trade account policies, forcing them to shut down.

 azreal13 wrote:
It might be Dakka, but I have to confess that a number of players at our club who do not post here are in a similar state of mind.

As a vet of nearly 25 years, in some form or another, I can honestly say I've not known it this bad, but then the increased awareness the Internet bri GW may contribute to that.

Regardless, it's a fantastic time to be war gaming, so if you have misgivings about GW, why not explore some of the other options?

In a year, our club has gone from exclusively GW, and almost exclusively 40k, to regularly including Infinty, Warmahordes, X Wing and others, with 40k being perhaps half of what's played.

Now that is cool seeing how your club has been evolving. In my area most have left the hobby or gone to CCG's and Board games. The rest are doing what your club is doing but they are so small of a group now then the CCG crowd.

 Banicks wrote:

 Banicks wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Part of the problem with Dakka (and any online board) is an echo chamber effect. In all honest, most of the folks here are not all that upset or negative, but the ones you hear from the most are the most upset ones and they just feed off of it and create a sense of overall negativity. So generally I'd ignore what a board is doing when it comes to your enjoyment of the hobby. Focus on those you play with. If they are okay, then that is your barometer.

That said, I would add that Dakka, while pretty cool most of the time, does have more than its fair share of negativity.

I can understand that.

But from your perspective, are things getting worse?

I was looking at 40k because GW is ultimately my LGS, and there isn't much else unless I go for a 2 hour drive to where other hobby wargames are played.

Again, where in Sydney are you? Because Campbelltown is about a 40 minute drive from the city, and has an absolutely fantastic game store.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Banicks wrote:

 Banicks wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Part of the problem with Dakka (and any online board) is an echo chamber effect. In all honest, most of the folks here are not all that upset or negative, but the ones you hear from the most are the most upset ones and they just feed off of it and create a sense of overall negativity. So generally I'd ignore what a board is doing when it comes to your enjoyment of the hobby. Focus on those you play with. If they are okay, then that is your barometer.

That said, I would add that Dakka, while pretty cool most of the time, does have more than its fair share of negativity.

I can understand that.

But from your perspective, are things getting worse?

I was looking at 40k because GW is ultimately my LGS, and there isn't much else unless I go for a 2 hour drive to where other hobby wargames are played.

Again, where in Sydney are you? Because Campbelltown is about a 40 minute drive from the city, and has an absolutely fantastic game store.

Bankstown. What's the place called?

It's just extremely confusing. I do listen to the guys already in the hobby, and they're just so negative. "GW sucks at this that and we get ripped off etc", yet I don't know if it's because they just love the game or it's a social outlet for them, because rarely are games played at the GW I go to when I'm there. Usually always the same fellas hanging around chatting or painting newly purchased (but not in-store) items.

So overall, people hate the overall business, but love the game. Very confusing to take a standpoint from that.

Have to admit, this forum is getting pretty bitter, almost as if it was cool to adopt a snide persona by much of the membership. Sad.

If you like to paint miniatures, model tanks and push them around a board and roll dice, then it is a great time to start. Tons of variety out there, minis get better every day, painting is easier, tons of large events growing every day.

If you like to paint GW only miniatures, GW only model tanks and push them around a GW only board and GW only roll dice, then it is a potentially disappointing time to start, especially based upon your local area.

While there is lot of reasons for people to complain about GW, not every reason to complain impacts every person. For me, it makes ZERO impact to my daily activity that people in Australia have terrible support and high prices. I have great availability, great places to game, models I like and large, nationwide US events which are fun to play in. Some may argue I need to furrow my brow in anger and change my purchasing and games I play because of other people's experiences. They can't be happy knowing someone somewhere may possibly be enjoying themselves.

But OP, you being in Australia... you are in for a totally different experience than us in the US. So take that in to consideration.

(Personally, I would say don't limit yourself to GW simply because it is the big smelly fart in the room which is in your face. Look around, see what will give you the models you enjoy and the playerbase you can actually play with and if it happens that GW games and products fills that need and makes you happy, so be it.)

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
It might be Dakka, but I have to confess that a number of players at our club who do not post here are in a similar state of mind.

As a vet of nearly 25 years, in some form or another, I can honestly say I've not known it this bad, but then the increased awareness the Internet bri GW may contribute to that.

Regardless, it's a fantastic time to be war gaming, so if you have misgivings about GW, why not explore some of the other options?

In a year, our club has gone from exclusively GW, and almost exclusively 40k, to regularly including Infinty, Warmahordes, X Wing and others, with 40k being perhaps half of what's played.

Now that is cool seeing how your club has been evolving. In my area most have left the hobby or gone to CCG's and Board games. The rest are doing what your club is doing but they are so small of a group now then the CCG crowd.

Not gonna lie, it's getting tough. We're losing members more often than we gain them, although seldom for gaming reasons, normally work or family related.

Apparently the local GW manager has be instructed to set up a GCN registered club, which we are not. As we are not we cannot advertise in the store for new people. I've pushed for us to start earlier as the opportunity arose at our venue, which will hopefully allow some of the younger players to make it more often, but ironically as the health and diversity of our gaming has grown, our membership has shrunk!

The game is so expensive and it seems like GW wants to drive business away... but the game itself is a blast. I don't regret the 2k I've spent on it at all, but entertainment money to me is a write off anyhow and I have hours of enjoyment from modelling and painting alone. Thats the best part of the hobby to me! Other manufacturers have some bloody nice sculpts too, though...

 Zinderneuf wrote:
Have to admit, this forum is getting pretty bitter, almost as if it was cool to adopt a snide persona by much of the membership. Sad.

I think there some truth to this as well. Dakka's atmosphere is getting darker.

OP- GW isn't perfect, but either are gas prices(and a ton of other things) and I still like to drive. However, in most cases if one says something positive about GW they are branded fan boys and apologists. The whole thing is stupid. Some people just need to hate.

 Byte wrote:

 Zinderneuf wrote:
Have to admit, this forum is getting pretty bitter, almost as if it was cool to adopt a snide persona by much of the membership. Sad.

I think there some truth to this as well. Dakka's atmosphere is getting darker.

OP- GW isn't perfect, but either are gas prices(and a ton of other things) and I still like to drive. However, in most cases if one says something positive about GW they are branded fan boys and apologists. The whole thing is stupid. Some people just need to hate.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. The "haters" on Dakka are generally the ones that care the most about GW. We love the games, the lore, the amount of our own history that GW has been a part of. We want GW to succeed - we want them to keep churning out codices and rules and models. It is because of our love of the game and the future of the IP that we are so vocal and seemingly bitter. We disagree with what the company is doing and their business decisions that they're making. If we didn't care or simply hated GW, we wouldn't say anything and would just let GW fold in on itself.

It is because we care that we lash out so.

I suggest finding a FLGS or club near you that you like so that you're not stuck with GW. You can always play their stuff if you want, but playing outside their stores will broaden your options a lot.

Regarding the negativity, if you want to go ahead despite it then feel free! There's still loads of discussion to be had that isn't negative. Just hang around the more specific areas of the forums more and you might not even notice it. There's no difficulty finding discussion of 40k, especially, here.

Also, what puma713 just said is awesome and true of a massive number of things in the world other than GW. When it comes to games, people usually criticise because they care.

Has it always been this bad? Yeah, it has. If you go back into the archives of old Usenet postings from 1992 you get stuff like this:

"BTW, I wonder what is going to happen to GW during the coming years. I know a LOT of people who were once Warhammer-addicts (including myself), but are turning away from GW en masse because they don't longer like the "improved" games such as WH40K, WFB or Space Marine. It seems GW is producing more and more stuff that should attract younger players (e.g. steam tanks, noise marines, childish magic etc...). And if so, where are all those younger players going to get the money to buy a lot of expensive miniatures?"

Dakka has a particularly negative culture these days, but that's a reflection on Dakka, not on the community as a whole.

 Kingsley wrote:
Has it always been this bad? Yeah, it has. If you go back into the archives of old Usenet postings from 1992 you get stuff like this:

"BTW, I wonder what is going to happen to GW during the coming years. I know a LOT of people who were once Warhammer-addicts (including myself), but are turning away from GW en masse because they don't longer like the "improved" games such as WH40K, WFB or Space Marine. It seems GW is producing more and more stuff that should attract younger players (e.g. steam tanks, noise marines, childish magic etc...). And if so, where are all those younger players going to get the money to buy a lot of expensive miniatures?"

Dakka has a particularly negative culture these days, but that's a reflection on Dakka, not on the community as a whole.

You see, that is a similar parallel about GW's current player age that they are going for to those companies that I have posted previously that went bankrupt and/or bought out by another company with less than what the market price should be. Big mistake if they continue this line of thought.

I also agree with Puma's comment. There are many that love the lore, the models and even the game of 40K. But they just hate the company in general

OP - I just started playing 40k in the last 4-5 months. It's a fine time to start, if you know what you're getting into. It's not a cheap hobby, it's time consuming and GW isn't the nicest company to deal with.

That said, I love the models, the rules are interesting and new enough that you won't see a new edition for prolly another 5 or so years, there are lots of people who play and lots of different army types to play with. Plus there are a ton of 3rd party sellers who have great pieces and bits, there are many quality paint and modeling companies and there is no end to articles in the Internet about painting and modeling tips, tricks and techniques.

Is GW worse? Personally, I don't care. Today. In a few years I might but right now I'm just enjoying.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
There are many that love the lore, the models and even the game of 40K. But they just hate the company in general

This. And I'm almost at the point where I can barely make it through a normal game of 40K. Love the lore, love the models, bored with the game, and hate the company.

OP, No.

These people are trying to put lipstick on a pig.

GW has earned every amount of vile darkness that they breed.

In general, people love the setting, love playing games, and love the nastalga of what once was. This new corperate venier in a suit and tie only in it for the outright- "HOW MUCH CAN WE SHILL FROM THE PLEBES... is what people hate the most.

For one, Games workshop is first and foremost a corperate shill(shell) of what it once was. They have taken everything good from the "HHHobby", and turned it into something of a caricature of what once was.

From the "annual price increase", to Finecrap, to complete ineptitude in "Improving" the game without so much as as astandardised FAQ, support, gaming, and support of the general two game systems in general, GW has taken the piss and makes it a point to continue to do so.

Case in point, read over a few of the choice morsels of information amongst the chaff of "Oh, dakka dakka is generally negative". You people do know that most of the players here have pretty much over ten + years in the hobby in general, right? You do know that some of the issues are real? When GW does well, Dakka is the first to say so, unfortunately- They have neglected the very customer/ consumer base that they once cultivated with things such as "Open gaming", scenery construction classes, gaming instruction, bits service, battle bunkers, deals, sales, specialist games, internal support, training programs on how to model, paint, and play, customer support, FLGS support, online information support, pdf's, army lists, How To's from everything from painting to playing, Online worldwide campaigns, Special events, giveaways, general good will, and a reasonable product at a reasonable price.

Dakka is negative? It's cool to be negative? People have no reason to complain about being treated with such disrespect from a bunch of corperation D bags?


I'm sorry, but just because you only have a GW store as your only outlet, you really don't have a leg to stand on.

For one, GW is capable of much much more with even just a little effort. Another point is that, with so much and so many- there is too little effort going to the product/ system that it is almost laughable.

I speak for myself, but others can probibly agree from thier own prospective-

You don't throw down hard earned coin to the tune of thousands of dollars, pounds, euros over many many years just to join the hate is cool crowd.

We love or loved the game and are genuinly frustrated to the point of hate over a company that continues to do everything other the accomplish the mission of selling cool figures for a cool game, and cultivate a gaming community that WANTS to play a good game.

(Then we can go on and on about our games developers, writers, and sculpters and how they are and have been treated...)

When Wart and Wells took it on themselves to turn the game and company in general into thier own personal piggy bank, they lost a whole lot more the just credibility for not only themselves, but the brand.

So, no. OP, the issues have always been there, but never to the point of where they are now that everyone is dumping thier collections, giving up playing, and reducing stock from whole walls to two or less rows, or closing down support for other systems outright.

Bankstown. What's the place called?

It's just extremely confusing. I do listen to the guys already in the hobby, and they're just so negative. "GW sucks at this that and we get ripped off etc", yet I don't know if it's because they just love the game or it's a social outlet for them, because rarely are games played at the GW I go to when I'm there. Usually always the same fellas hanging around chatting or painting newly purchased (but not in-store) items.

So overall, people hate the overall business, but love the game. Very confusing to take a standpoint from that.

Sydney has a GW Battle Bunker (as far as I know, it is still operational). GW has been very busy in Sydney moving out of high rent locations, such as Westfields Liverpool and Macarthur Square, to set up what I assume is cheaper shops with fewer staff. They still have a small store in Liverpool and one in Campbelltown off Queen St.

If you are going to head out to Campbelltown though, I would suggest ducking in to The Hall of Heroes (60 Queen St). I know a lot of good folk purchase and play games there, so they will be able to help you out. At the least they can give you some advice regarding the local gaming groups.

My opinion: GW has always been expensive, but the quality of the product and lore has made it worthwhile. When GW started to lose this, by ret-conning their own lore and using substandard materials, I started to take a step back. Recently the company seems to be clutching at straws (...and by that I mean money). It is very easy, once a company like this has disenfranchised you, to be highly cynical whenever the company does something new. For example, to me now, every new Codex is a blatant money grab that nerfs old armies and makes you buy new stuff to stay afloat.

Realistically though, GW is a company that has to make money to stay alive. Everything it does is profit driven, which is ok, but they seem to have forgotten that customer goodwill also attracts a profit. 40K has kept me interested for 20 years now ( getting old), but recently it has been a one way relationship. My advice is that if you can find a good group to game and collect with, 40K can still be a very enjoyable hobby. If you are doing it alone it will take a lot of self motivation.

Good luck!

It's not negativity at all. It's harsh positivity. Wargaming is thriving, or at least on a heavy upswing. GW is in a death spiral. The quality of the sculpts, rules, and even fluff has taken a nosedive in the past couple of years, while prices have increased by 35-100% and GW's behavior has become ever more erratic and antisocial.


If you have non-GW stores or clubs or whathaveyou in your area, check out other systems. Malifaux, for instance, can be started for less than a single vehicle or box of tac marines costs, perhaps even any 40k kit since you're in Australia. Warmahordes is pricier but bigger, and still radically cheaper than 40k. Infinity is pricy per model, but encourages proxying, and looks like an amazing game. That's the limit of what I know of other systems, because I stopped looking for a new system on finding Malifaux (playing cards instead of dice, awesome models, and a heavy melee focus (I ran a wych cult in 5th ed, and 6th nerfed what was already a challenging (but awesome) playstyle to the point of uselessness (I blame Ward, since everything horrible in 6th is a straight buff to his pet Necrons, and he's one of the three most conspicuously credited authors for the 6th ed BRB))).

If GW is your only option, find something else to do for a year or so, and check again. Now is the worst time to be starting 40k. If the hobby aspect is your thing, try taking up sculpting: there are a number of threads around by sculptors who are, from what I've seen, more than happy to give advise and comment on how they're doing things. Building a piece from nothing but a length of wire and a lump of polymer clay is many times as satisfying as assembling a kit someone else designed, particularly once it starts coming out decent looking (which takes lots of practice and patience, of course).

 Monster Rain wrote:
I didn't even realize that there were this many haters and malcontents until I ventured online. I just played with my friends and enjoyed 40k in that capacity.

Same here, but I was also ignorant of all the other games out there and the magnitude of bs GW heaps upon its customers, so ignorance works both ways.

Some interesting replies there fellas. Thanks very much.

If what you are saying is true, and people are selling out their armies I'll keep an eye out on here and eBay for some cheap CSMs. Might be a way into the hobby cheaper as long as they're not expecting to make back what they bought them for.

On the other hand, I have a trip coming up to UK, and having a look at prices over there. I could practically pick up the same army I was looking at for a quarter of the price even after currency exchange.

I think for now, I'll get a start on DV kit, and watch Dakka and GW closely - especially come mid-year where business do their EOFY.

I think what you find online is really more representative of the world at large than what you tend to find in local groups (especially if that local group is centered around a GW store).

You may see more online, but that is often just because people tend to congregate with others of similiar views, while online forums tend to draw based on subject matter, and various aspects like economic conditions and local gaming availability do not impact who logs into a forum.

All of that said, the best advice that I can offer to anyone getting into various aspects of the hobby is to not marry into a company and simply buy what you like. Read the fluff you like, buy the miniatures you want in the scale you prefer and game using the rules which suit you best. There are nearly a thousand companies making miniatures in dozens of sizes and scales and well over a hundred different sets of rules to cover everything you can think of from GMed dungeon crawls and skirmishes to planet spanning campaigns featuring combined arms and space battles.

The only thing that restricts people to use GW figures, with GW fluff, GW rules in GW stores is a false idea that you have to. Most rules are flexible enough to change sizes and figures with little problem. Weapons from one system can easily be shited to be 'counts as' weapons from a different system. If the GW fluff is appealing, I recomend you look at FFGs 40k RPG books as they are (IMO) better written and more consistent than the stuff GW has been putting out.