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What sucks is that ive got so much invested in $40k right now: models, rules books, codexs. To switch id have to completely start from scratch (be a noob all over again with some other set of rules, models and codexs).I hate bein a noob.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
What sucks is that ive got so much invested in $40k right now: models, rules books, codexs. To switch id have to completely start from scratch (be a noob all over again with some other set of rules, models and codexs).I hate bein a noob.

This is one way that all companies try to get you-- by making you have enough invested that you don't want to go elsewhere. Don't fall for it! One basic principle of economics is to disregard sunk costs. If you think you'll be happier elsewhere, then by all means abandon ship.

But only bad companies do that. Not paragons of price-reduction and modern marketing strategy like GW, right Kingy?

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
What sucks is that ive got so much invested in $40k right now: models, rules books, codexs. To switch id have to completely start from scratch (be a noob all over again with some other set of rules, models and codexs).I hate bein a noob.

Why would you have to stop using the things you've already got?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But only bad companies do that. Not paragons of price-reduction and modern marketing strategy like GW, right Kingy?

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
What sucks is that ive got so much invested in $40k right now: models, rules books, codexs. To switch id have to completely start from scratch (be a noob all over again with some other set of rules, models and codexs).I hate bein a noob.

Why would you have to stop using the things you've already got?

Yep...most of the standard tropes which GW treads in work fine in any other game system - there isn't even anything to stop you from continuing to play with the rules as you have them now. I know a couple of groups who play with Rogue Trader rules and 3rd Edition rules still. You can even pick up a box of new miniatures when you feel like it.

There are of course some who will get all bent out of shape over using comparable GW figures as proxies for something like Infinity - but generally speaking people who get bent out of shape over something like that are not much fun to game with.

 insaniak wrote:

 Banicks wrote:
PS. Has anyone else noticed that GW now charge you 25 cents for a bag?

Aldi and Target also charge you for bags, just off the top of my head. It's something a lot of businesses started doing back when 'green bags' started becoming popular, to discourage plastic bag use.

That I don't mind so much because those stores that do charge you for bags have become cheaper in stock.

GW charges a premium already, so paying 25 cents for a bag is a kick in the teeth when we've already established we're paying that much more for their stock.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
What sucks is that ive got so much invested in $40k right now: models, rules books, codexs. To switch id have to completely start from scratch (be a noob all over again with some other set of rules, models and codexs).I hate bein a noob.

Starting another game doesn't mean all your 40k stuff just falls apart and needs to be thrown out.

Just sayin'.

Why do you keep ignoring the 04 july price jump? You continue to use that after cost.

The figures at that time were a package deal. 20, 25, and 30 respectivly.

Chaos had a 10 man boxed set, a 16 man boxed set, and the obiquitous metal troops for each of their big 4. This was also along the time of the 13th Black Crusade summer tourney, and the introduction of the Cadians in plastics. LATD, necron plastics, etc. Boom times before the fall- which you keep using the after price from. There was IIRC a second price hike with some other excuse.


Compared to whats going on now, it was good.

These prices your touting were for 16 man boxes, as well. Your loking at 10 man costs for twice as much for half the amount of gear in each box. IIRC, there were also at that time the introduction of the plastic heavy weapon boxes, as well as the IG stuff. Point being, your not using the 04 price, your using 3d qtr stuff, introduced right before the holiday season.

 Banicks wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Banicks wrote:
PS. Has anyone else noticed that GW now charge you 25 cents for a bag?

Aldi and Target also charge you for bags, just off the top of my head. It's something a lot of businesses started doing back when 'green bags' started becoming popular, to discourage plastic bag use.

That I don't mind so much because those stores that do charge you for bags have become cheaper in stock.

GW charges a premium already, so paying 25 cents for a bag is a kick in the teeth when we've already established we're paying that much more for their stock.

Just bring your girlfriend/fiancee/wife along. It's been my experience that their handbags have the internal capacity to hold even something the size of Dark Vengeance/Island of Blood, despite how large they actually look.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Banicks wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Banicks wrote:
PS. Has anyone else noticed that GW now charge you 25 cents for a bag?

Aldi and Target also charge you for bags, just off the top of my head. It's something a lot of businesses started doing back when 'green bags' started becoming popular, to discourage plastic bag use.

That I don't mind so much because those stores that do charge you for bags have become cheaper in stock.

GW charges a premium already, so paying 25 cents for a bag is a kick in the teeth when we've already established we're paying that much more for their stock.

Just bring your girlfriend/fiancee/wife along. It's been my experience that their handbags have the internal capacity to hold even something the size of Dark Vengeance/Island of Blood, despite how large they actually look.

None of the above, and I'm afraid handbags just don't suit me darling.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Why do you keep ignoring the 04 july price jump? You continue to use that after cost.

"Your Honor, I object!"
"And why is that, Mr. Reede?"
"It's devastating to my case!"
- Jim Carrey, Liar Liar

@Hbmc. I realy dont want an all proxy army. I think it may be rude to play someone who has got the right models for army and im playing GW models and having to explain what every unit is and carrying. I could trade but i think it would be at a serious loss for me. Rock-Me-Hard place. I can see why users are bitter with GW.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
@Hbmc. I realy dont want an all proxy army. I think it may be rude to play someone who has got the right models for army and im playing GW models and having to explain what every unit is and carrying.

Get ready for a paradigm shift:

Other games let you use whatever miniatures you want - regardless of manufacturer.

Seriously, go look at Gruntz, or FUBAR, or Tomorrow's War. You can use whatever you want. Mix and match.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
@Hbmc. I realy dont want an all proxy army.

Fair enough – I’ve never been a fan of proxies either, except where there is no alternative (my AdMech army is mostly models from other companies other than the Tech-Priests and Servitors), but your stuff remains completely valid for 40K even if you’re not getting any more/supporting GW/whatever.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
@Hbmc. I realy dont want an all proxy army. I think it may be rude to play someone who has got the right models for army and im playing GW models and having to explain what every unit is and carrying.

Get ready for a paradigm shift:

Other games let you use whatever miniatures you want - regardless of manufacturer.

CAN YOU DIG IT?

Not true... Every PP event I have ever seen with PP support requires 100% PP models.

You take the Kings Coin, you do the Kings Bidding. PP has press gangers who do a good job running events and providing support, it is perfectly reasonable for them to expect to promote a single miniature's minis.

I also seriously doubt when Mantic gets its event machine running and they have tourneys for Kings of War that they are going to be thrilled about someone showing up with a GW fantasy army and winning the whole thing. I would not be surprised to see requirements for those events, and I wouldn't begrudge them either.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Banicks wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Banicks wrote:
PS. Has anyone else noticed that GW now charge you 25 cents for a bag?

Aldi and Target also charge you for bags, just off the top of my head. It's something a lot of businesses started doing back when 'green bags' started becoming popular, to discourage plastic bag use.

That I don't mind so much because those stores that do charge you for bags have become cheaper in stock.

GW charges a premium already, so paying 25 cents for a bag is a kick in the teeth when we've already established we're paying that much more for their stock.

In my area, the bag thing is a Governmental *TAX* and retailers can never legally pay tax for consumers. We get charged per bag and it has to explicitly be itemized on the receipt as a tax. And while people are like 'they can drop prices', how do they do that when I may be buying 3 items or 20 and may need one bag or 5 bags? And since *EVERYONE* has to pay it, and every retailer is charging it... why should they absorb it? You going to get offended and go to the 'other' store who is still charging you the same bag tax?

"Bag Tax" is reality in the US, and many retailers have already gone nation-wide even in areas without the tax simply to be ready for when it expands and many customers like 'green initiatives' and want retailers to help curb bag pollution. Those customers support those companies because they explicitly WANT the retailers to hassle the crap out of you and discourage plastic bags.

I've been playing on and off since 1997. During this time I've always heard player complain about how bad their favorite game was, regardless of whether the company was GW, Wizards of the Coast, White Wolf, or FASA. Gamers love to bitch and moan about their games and about how they would make it better. The reality is we gamers like to complain. Who knows why, but we do. If you enjoy the game then stick with it. There are tons of options out there and GW is really just a cool way to get into it. There are always groups that form and when you show you really want to play then those groups will bring you in. My FLGS I suppose is unique in that we are in a military heave area so the social groups here are very welcoming of new players (especially since they come and go pretty frequently). Once you've built you're favored army and decide to try something else, then do it. This hobby is all about building up a force and trying something new.

I think the GW games are great, the models are great, and the community is great (sometimes). What sucks is GW's business model. They raise prices when they're doing poorly and make the game less accessible to new players, and they change the rules constantly to the chagrin of many long time players. The combination means less sales so they raise their prices again and look for replacement store managers.

Would I enter the hobby if I were you? Yes.

Would I look into alternate ways of doing so? Very yes.

If the people you play with aren't total sticklers and you aren't planning on any tournaments I support proxying 3rd party models and scratch-building what you can.

nkelsch wrote:
Not true... Every PP event I have ever seen with PP support requires 100% PP models.

You take the Kings Coin, you do the Kings Bidding. PP has press gangers who do a good job running events and providing support, it is perfectly reasonable for them to expect to promote a single miniature's minis.

I also seriously doubt when Mantic gets its event machine running and they have tourneys for Kings of War that they are going to be thrilled about someone showing up with a GW fantasy army and winning the whole thing. I would not be surprised to see requirements for those events, and I wouldn't begrudge them either.

One example of a game that doesn't allow proxies in official events doesn't render the point untrue. There are other games out there that do allow you to use whatever models you want.

People are focusing too much on the price issue, while ignoring what I think is a drop in the general "feel" of the game. I feel like I am becoming less and less of a hobbyist, and more of just a consumer in GW's eyes. At least ten years ago, even if that was the case, they did a better job at hiding it.

I wish I could take all the miniatures available from GW now, and go back to 1998 to use them.

 insaniak wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Not true... Every PP event I have ever seen with PP support requires 100% PP models.

You take the Kings Coin, you do the Kings Bidding. PP has press gangers who do a good job running events and providing support, it is perfectly reasonable for them to expect to promote a single miniature's minis.

I also seriously doubt when Mantic gets its event machine running and they have tourneys for Kings of War that they are going to be thrilled about someone showing up with a GW fantasy army and winning the whole thing. I would not be surprised to see requirements for those events, and I wouldn't begrudge them either.

One example of a game that doesn't allow proxies in official events doesn't render the point untrue. There are other games out there that do allow you to use whatever models you want.

But yet, the games with the major share of the gaming markets have things in place which kindly encourage or downright demand official models... hardly paradigm shift to say 'other games' allow it when what they mean is 'most of the minor games with very small marketshare allow it while a large percent of the major game systems discourage or disallow it'.

The simple reality is for most gamers, the path of least resistance is using the models explicitly designed for the gaming system either out of ease of use, lack of realistic alternatives or requirement for sponsored events. This is not unique to GW.

Can you play other games with random models? Sure... but it is not always going to be an easy or seamless experience and to give the impression that everyone but GW allows it is false.

Thanks for the tips. Im gonna branch out then i gotta find someone who plays.

nkelsch wrote:

Can you play other games with random models? Sure... but it is not always going to be an easy or seamless experience and to give the impression that everyone but GW allows it is false.

Oh dear me. A bit of effort in a hobby that involves assembling and painting miniatures, and then figuring out the rulesets for them. Say it ain't so!

Also, tell me exactly when I said that everyone except GW allows you to use whatever models you want? I pointed out a few rulesets that do so, and I don't recall ever bringing PP into the discussion.

I KNEW there was a reason that Aug- Sep 04 kept nagging my gak...


The introduction of 4th edition 40K. The price increase was double at that point. July, then after the release.

Black Gobbo, Fanatic, Troll were still in full swing, by the way....


!@22#$ on a stick, look at those White Dwarf magazines... Compared to what they shill now, it is like night and day.

Your numbers are good for August/ September, but then they rose again before the holiday rush.

I remember that zombie rush thing we had going for October of that year, as well. Skirmish was in full swing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
What sucks is that ive got so much invested in $40k right now: models, rules books, codexs. To switch id have to completely start from scratch (be a noob all over again with some other set of rules, models and codexs).I hate bein a noob.

Yes and no.

Sometimes it is a fresh slate, you get about 50 bucks worth of a new game, take your time and enjoy it and really you don't have the same issues you have with a competitive collective game like GW's got. You take more time on models, learning rules, and bs'ing with your mates then you do trying to keep up with the Joneses, and fight it out with rules lawyers, competition builds, and weasle players. If you get a skirmish game, such as Rafm, Helldorado, Gorkamorka, or others, you take it to another type of experience.

Depending on your group, you can even go other routes, and just try rules sets with your outstanding figures, and just leave the "GW" experience to a side and just have a different type.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Why do you keep ignoring the 04 july price jump? You continue to use that after cost.

Because it isn't relevant to my argument. Troop prices still haven't increased in over eight years, regardless of what happened before then. The concept that I'm "ignoring" it is also absurd since I have recognized and talked about it in multiple threads now.

 Kingsley wrote:

...
...
...

I also look at many more units than he does. Overall, my analysis is more comprehensive. That said, that does not mean that Sean is wrong-- I do think he's presented his data misleadingly, however.

You have looked only at basic troops.

No-one makes armies only with basic troops.
No-one "collects" basic troops only, to paint and display.

The facts are that lots of individual kits have increased a lot, so, even though some haven't gone up so fast, the cost of typical armies has increased a lot. Overall the increase has been much quicker than inflation. This affects players and it affects collectors who want to purchase outside the limited range of kits that have not inflated so rapidly.

@grot6
Sadly I dont have a group...just me :( you could say dakka is my group. My local gw store closed. Now i have pegasus hobbies (awesome place btw) has no tables tho. Keeps me busy with project supplies. I was drawn to the complexity of 40k and the models. For some reason i really like the ugly ones. Lol! Seriously tho i love it however Its really hard justifing to the wife the expenses. It really is a single mans game. I think they get jealous of the time, attention, and $ that is devoted to it.

Guys, please stick to the arguments rather than the other users.

 Kingsley wrote:
Troop prices still haven't increased in over eight years, regardless of what happened before then. .

Where are you getting that from, because IG Cadians look a hell of a lot more expensive today then they did a couple of years ago?

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Troop prices still haven't increased in over eight years, regardless of what happened before then. .

Where are you getting that from, because IG Cadians look a hell of a lot more expensive today then they did a couple of years ago?

It's a good point and one that tends to get lost amidst all the bickering over methodology and time spans. The only clear and unambiguous way to compare prices is to compare like for like and one of the few ways to do so is to compare sets which haven't changed material nor radically changed composition. One of the few sets to have done so are the IG plastic boxes like Cadians or Catachans (and maybe some Tyranid stuff - maybe Genestealers?) as they have not changed pretty much at all in ages. The only thing that has changed, is that you get less for more, ie 10 models instead of 20 - the models are the same so the comparison is clear.

That way there is no arguing over whether or not army composition is part of the analysis or whether you are taking into consideration point or squad sizes or any of that nonsense; it is a clear like for like comparison.

If you are comparing the cost of participation in the hobby, which means the cost of armies rather than specific individual kits, then it is fair enough to compare a metal model from 10 years ago with the plastic replacement now.

For example, Tau used to have metal Pathfinders sold in blister packs. These have been replaced with a plastic box set. Pathfinders are an important unit in the Tau codex, and are widely used. Thus, if they have got cheaper it should be taken into account in pricing the army as a whole.

In actuality, some Tau units are as cheap or cheaper now, taking inflation into account, as 7-8 years ago, but others have gone up so much that the cost of a realistic army is much more than it used to be.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If you are comparing the cost of participation in the hobby, which means the cost of armies rather than specific individual kits, then it is fair enough to compare a metal model from 10 years ago with the plastic replacement now.

But that's not what he's doing. He's attempting to argue that the prices haven't gone up in 8 years, something that is so obviously wrong it boggles the mind as to how one could even begin to think that.