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2013/10/17 17:38:59
Subject: A Very Pleasing new Project from Prodos Games
Bolognesus wrote: "troop"!="hero" though - and I am assuming both "A" and "P" to be somewhat larger than their human opponents, and priced as hero sculpts to boot. Add licensing costs and keep in mind JudgeDoug and I are arguing RRP, not KS pricing (I assume, on JD's part ), and you're well on your way there.
That RRP sounds like a great way for Prodos to regret grabbing this license. A few people are happy with $10 aliens (a horde creature) because they only want 3 or 4, so naturally that makes it a good decision for the whole company, right?
I reiterate, $5 per figure is probably too much if they want this game to have any legs at all. Otherwise, you can all have your $10 aliens line your shelves next to your Mongoose Minis Babylon 5 ships and Starship Troopers skinnies.
Not at all. I have wanted high quality aliens and USCM since the early 90's, when I started wargaming (and was disappointed even then when I bought the Leading Edge 25mm figs brand new). I bought a laserdisc player when I was 16 with my minimum wage dollars and then the $100 Aliens special edition on Laserdisc, because it was the only way to see the extended version. I have an original 1986 theatrical poster framed in glass and hanging in my nerd room. I own a full set of USCM BDU's, body armor with working shoulder lamp, a pulse rifle with LED ammo counter... I'm a fething mega fan (I'm wearing that gak in my avatar pic!). If the sculpts are incredibly high quality then I have no problem paying $10 per figure for _over a hundred_ of them. I will pay for quality and accuracy.
But that's me. A ton of people are quite happy with Mantic's Men At Arms or GW's High Elves or 7th/8th Empire infantry.
And has been pointed out several times before, Prodos is charging like less than 4 bucks for their Warzone stuff.
I'm still not sure why the comment I made about not minding a high price tag for quality minis somehow became the gospel on an actual price point. Well, you said you hoped they were less than five bucks apiece, and I said "I'm hoping they're that cheap! I'm preparing to pay Mierce-level prices for (hopefully) Mierce-level sculpts. I wouldn't mind paying $10 per mini if they are excellent." which is entirely true and entirely my own opinion.
BTW when were Skinnies $10 apiece? I was Mongoose Infantry and I remember paying about 3 bucks per metal fig (8-10 figs in a box for $29.95, right?)
The skinnies are just a reference to another high-profile license that went bust.
And I wasn't commenting directly to just you. Lots of people were chiming in about how $10 (or more!) was fair market value, that skirmish games are just fine with that price point because people (those few who play the official game with them) only need a few, etc.. Superfans might find those prices acceptable--GW has such fans, too--but the strength of the Aliens brand is not appealing to a niche of superfans but in appealing to huge swaths of the population who might not even play tabletop games yet. Selling the models pre-neckbearded is not going to give them that appeal. Prodos is reading the thread, so let's just sabotage them completely and ask for a buy-in of $500 just for the starter set, shall we?
It's not like there aren't cheaper figures out there that look close enough to proxy.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: the strength of the Aliens brand is not appealing to a niche of superfans but in appealing to huge swaths of the population who might not even play tabletop games yet
I couldn't agree more. If anyone needs proof that this is the best approach, please see X-Wing.
The skinnies are just a reference to another high-profile license that went bust.
And I wasn't commenting directly to just you. Lots of people were chiming in about how $10 (or more!) was fair market value, that skirmish games are just fine with that price point because people (those few who play the official game with them) only need a few, etc.. Superfans might find those prices acceptable--GW has such fans, too--but the strength of the Aliens brand is not appealing to a niche of superfans but in appealing to huge swaths of the population who might not even play tabletop games yet. Selling the models pre-neckbearded is not going to give them that appeal. Prodos is reading the thread, so let's just sabotage them completely and ask for a buy-in of $500 just for the starter set, shall we?
It's not like there aren't cheaper figures out there that look close enough to proxy.
Ah gotcha. Yes, I am sincerely hoping they are very cheap as well (because then I'll buy more!! and moree!!!! a whole company of USCM?! why not?! a regiment, battalion, division!!!), and the preview shots are showing the quality. If Prodos can pull a good economy of scale situation here and be able to manufacture a ton of these at a cheap cost, I can't imagine any sci fi fan not pledging at least a few bucks for some cool figs (especially if Prodos does a low level cheap entry that has an alien, a predator and a colonial marine, as a set, maybe each on a special base that matches - hive, jungle, LV-426 flooring).
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2013/10/17 18:06:19
Subject: A Very Pleasing new Project from Prodos Games
Bobtheinquisitor - always admire how you manage to walk an extremely fine line between being purposefully contrary and trolling a thread, and make a reasonable argument Hopefully the pricing structures are already in place (if this thing really is a short time from launching) - Prodos will hopefully be able to learn from Warzone, and if they are on Dakka the sheer amount of bitching that goes on (any time you have Games Workshop and mention of pricing in the same thread) will instead push them towards a pricing strategy that is reasonable for the common law-abiding citizen
BobtheInquisitor wrote: the strength of the Aliens brand is not appealing to a niche of superfans but in appealing to huge swaths of the population who might not even play tabletop games yet
I couldn't agree more. If anyone needs proof that this is the best approach, please see X-Wing.
Not sure X-Wing is immediately comparable, with the pre-paints and different miniature style, plus different scale of game in terms of miniatures used.
I don't care if this is not exactly like X-Wing, the purpose of the analogy is price point. Given that these AvP minis are not pre-painted and will need terrain &etc, do you think that they would need to cost more in order to appeal to people who don't already wargame? Obviously not. Just like with X-Wing, a lower price point combined with a big license is the correct formula for attracting non-wargamer customers.
Manchu wrote: I don't care if this is not exactly like X-Wing, the purpose of the analogy is price point. Given that these AvP minis are not pre-painted and will need terrain &etc, do you think that they would need to cost more in order to appeal to people who don't already wargame? Obviously not. Just like with X-Wing, a lower price point combined with a big license is the correct formula for attracting non-wargamer customers.
You consider X-wing cheap?
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2013/10/17 18:36:56
Subject: A Very Pleasing new Project from Prodos Games
Manchu wrote: I don't care if this is not exactly like X-Wing, the purpose of the analogy is price point. Given that these AvP minis are not pre-painted and will need terrain &etc, do you think that they would need to cost more in order to appeal to people who don't already wargame? Obviously not. Just like with X-Wing, a lower price point combined with a big license is the correct formula for attracting non-wargamer customers.
You consider X-wing cheap?
Beat me to it.
I'm getting antsy for more information- I'd at least like to know how long I have to save up for this. Hopefully it's not until after Christmas.
Yes -- without going too far afield, I think X-Wing is very cheap ... and I think the sales back that up. The difference Pacific alluded to, I believe, is that what makes X-Wing cheap (i.e., being playable right out of the box in a real sense) is not going to apply here. Therefore, these unpainted and probably unassembled AvP miniatures, which will require terrain and other modelling time/skill/resources, should be even cheaper, in the sense of pounds/dollars, than X-Wing miniatures.
Again, I don't want to get too bogged down in the X-Wing analogy in this thread -- the point regarding these miniatures is that they're based on a license which has a huge amount of recognition beyond the tabletop war game niche. Charging a lot for them, for example on the nonsensical theory that skirmish games should be more expensive per model, is not a good way to access that market.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/17 18:51:45
Does AvP really have that kind of broad appeal, though? I mean, geeks and video gamers are aware of it, sure. But beyond that? I don't see this license really permeating society like SW does.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2013/10/17 19:10:36
Subject: A Very Pleasing new Project from Prodos Games
lord_blackfang wrote: Does AvP really have that kind of broad appeal, though? I mean, geeks and video gamers are aware of it, sure. But beyond that? I don't see this license really permeating society like SW does.
Alien and Aliens are widely regarded as two of the best films in their genres (horror, and action, respectively).
Everyone recognizes a Geiger Alien. Like, everyone.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2013/10/17 19:10:38
Subject: A Very Pleasing new Project from Prodos Games
Sure, it's not like SW. What is? But the table top niche is tiny. On video games alone, AvP has legions of fans. Take a look at how much money Colonial Marines made despite being a gigantic critical failure.
lord_blackfang wrote: By this logic, $40 for one pre-painted 28mm Predator and Arnie would be cheap, as it is a full game
If it comes with enough terrain to fill up a 6x4 table with dense jungle and multiple traps, then sure $40 would be cheap. That's what it means to be a full game with a ground-based skirmish.
Prodos! Come in here and clear the air with concrete details! including when I should start saving my pfennigs!
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2013/10/17 19:17:57
Subject: A Very Pleasing new Project from Prodos Games
lord_blackfang wrote: By this logic, $40 for one pre-painted 28mm Predator and Arnie would be cheap, as it is a full game
If it comes with enough terrain to fill up a 6x4 table with dense jungle and multiple traps, then sure $40 would be cheap. That's what it means to be a full game with a ground-based skirmish.
Well Xwing has cardboard asteroids, etc. So you're not miles off. If they go for a space colony or a ship, small printed board, couple of marines, couple of aliens, $40? Could happen.
That said since it's going on KS do we think it'll be mass-market priced? KS is niche city. Population: us.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/17 19:28:28
Dead account, no takesy-backsies
2013/10/17 19:32:01
Subject: A Very Pleasing new Project from Prodos Games
yeah, Prodos would need about a couple million bucks or more to do high quality plastic prepaints.
They should have a 5 million dollar stretch goal for that, just for the hell of it.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2013/10/17 19:40:10
Subject: A Very Pleasing new Project from Prodos Games
If by "us" you mean millions and millions of dollars, then sure.
I agree that there's money to be made - but it's not the same kind of pay day as putting a boxed game in to toy stores across the globe, surely? Unless, that is, you're going for the quite pricey wargaming niche market, with appropriately pricey stuff, which would likely die on its ass in said toy stores, but will do brilliantly on KS.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/17 19:57:24
Dead account, no takesy-backsies
2013/10/17 19:57:24
Subject: A Very Pleasing new Project from Prodos Games
Pacific wrote: Bobtheinquisitor - always admire how you manage to walk an extremely fine line between being purposefully contrary and trolling a thread, and make a reasonable argument
It's what I do.
Sometimes, I stumble over the line, but then I look down and see one line of footprints and know that Dakka is carrying me.
Hopefully the pricing structures are already in place (if this thing really is a short time from launching) - Prodos will hopefully be able to learn from Warzone, and if they are on Dakka the sheer amount of bitching that goes on (any time you have Games Workshop and mention of pricing in the same thread) will instead push them towards a pricing strategy that is reasonable for the common law-abiding citizen
I have a lot of friends who would buy up anything Aliens-related that can afford, but they are all 35 or younger in this economy, so...
Ah gotcha. Yes, I am sincerely hoping they are very cheap as well (because then I'll buy more!! and moree!!!! a whole company of USCM?! why not?! a regiment, battalion, division!!!), and the preview shots are showing the quality. If Prodos can pull a good economy of scale situation here and be able to manufacture a ton of these at a cheap cost, I can't imagine any sci fi fan not pledging at least a few bucks for some cool figs (especially if Prodos does a low level cheap entry that has an alien, a predator and a colonial marine, as a set, maybe each on a special base that matches - hive, jungle, LV-426 flooring).
If this product can appeal to the average Aliens fan, it could be worth millions. I really like the idea of a "sampler set" that gets the figures into lots of hands for cheap. Hell, market it right, and you can convince many fans that they never have to use the thimble again in monopoly, or basic chess sets, or ...Risk tokens. Make the rules free, too, and many people with a sampler pack (that they bought because, y'know, Aliens) might try their hand at it just to try out...
Now, that might seem a bit too ambitious, but even trying to broaden the appeal like that will do Prodos a lot better than making Infinity with licensed models.
Manchu wrote: You know, we're just assuming there will be a KS at all.
My god, I'd just really firmly got it into my head that this was a KS. I guess I'm just so used to seeing them. That kind of renders my whole line of argument null and void. Whoops. Nothing to see here folks!
Manchu wrote: Yes -- without going too far afield, I think X-Wing is very cheap ... and I think the sales back that up. .
Agree. When it comes to miniature gaming, X-Wing is a darned steal.
$40 gets in you, and that's retail. Shop online and you can get two solid forces to play with for under $100.
See, the problem with this is that there will be a very large number of potential customers who do not find that cheap for an untested game, who do not want to buy "solid forces", but rather minis for their own purposes and probably in large numbers, and people who will want a sample of "toys" for their computer desk and who don't want to pay for rules or whatever. X-Wing might be very successful, but $15 for a single spaceship is nuts. $15 for a single 28mm dude will be an instant buzzkill.
And Aliens is probably the second most famous and most-imitated science fiction franchise after Star Wars. It is huge. But not $15 for one 30mm alien huge.
), and you're well on your way there.
" - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
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