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Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord





Dallas area, TX

All that math proves is that Banshees @ 13ppm are equal to Marines with 2W @ 13ppm. Because the casualties even out.
And a 1v1 comparison isn't very fair when you consider that Marines are meant to be more or less self-sufficient and Eldar units are meant to ALWAYS have support.

10 Banshees will never be assaulting 10 Marines, nor would they be charging without some kind of buff. The Eldar codex is built specifically in this manner. Marines, while buffs exist in their faction, are not built this way.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/12 14:01:47


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Again, please quit using eldar infantry as the comparison standard.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
10 Marines with +1W. Naked vs Naked, vs 10 Banshees:
Shooting:
Marines:
10x2x(2/3)(2/3)(1/2) = 20x(2/9), or ~ 4.5 dead Banshees

Banshees:
10x1x(2/3)[(1/3)(1/3) + (1/6)(5/6)] = 10x(1/6), or ~ 2 wounds, or 1 dead Marine.

Marines being nearly 5 times as good at shooting isn't really a problem, as Banshee are glass CC units.

CC:
Marines:
10x1(1/2)(2/3)(1/2) = 10x(1/6), or ~ 2 dead Banshees
Banshees:
(10x2+1)(2/3)(1/3)(5/6) = 21(5/27), or ~ 2 dead Marines

So we have a super glass cannon CC unit that gives up a ton of shooting to hit hard in melee, who specializes in killing Tacs. And it's about tied with it's intended target in CC. While getting destroyed 4-5 times as hard in shooting best-case by the same unit.

And they're the same points. And Banshees go from half the durability of Marines pre-change to a quarter of it, for the same price.

Do you see why Marines with +1W might not be ideal?

Your rounding is absolutely atrocious and your math is slightly wrong... So if marines had two wounds...

Shooting:
Marines:
20(2/3)(2/3)(1/2) = 4.44 dead banshees
Banshees:
10(2/3)[(1/3)(1/3) + (1/6)(5/6)] = .83 dead marines

CC:
Marines:
(10+1)(1/2)(2/3)(1/2) = 1.83 dead banshees
Banshees:
(10*2+1)(2/3)(1/3)(5/6) + 10(2/3)[(1/2)(1/3) + (1/6)(5/6)] = 2.77 dead marines

Banshees can fire their pistols before the charge, and then fire them in melee in subsequent rounds. Banshees also get other goodies that marines don't get, such as a 22" threat range (on average, marines have average 13" threat range for comparison), -1 to hit vs everything, and immunity to overwatch. So, yea, I actually think that makes tac marines somewhat balanced with howling banshees, a unit that to my knoweldge is so UP that no eldar player that I know uses them.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/07/12 13:59:29


 
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord





Dallas area, TX

Martel732 wrote:
Again, please quit using eldar infantry as the comparison standard.

I completely agree. Eldar are in a completely different ball game, and if you end up comparing their "worst" units to say 2W Marines would be OP, you actually end up hurting your own argument.
Marines should have 2W for 8E. PERIOD. This also means Bikes and Termies should have 3W.
It better reflects the "durability" they are SUPPOSED to have in a meta in which multi-damage weapons run rampant.
Scouts are probably the only "Marines" that could stay at 1W.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/12 14:12:24


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wizard,
Yes, my rounding was very broad. But it cut both ways (rounded up .83 both times).

Did you factor in the Tac pistol? I don't recall them losing it in 8th. The Tac pistol is scarier to Banshees than the Banshee pistol is to Marines, even with Marines having only 1W - much moreso with 2. Also, the pistols only fire every other round (you can shoot in your shooting phase, not theirs).

Marines, when firinig pistols:
(10+1)(1/2)(2/3)(1/2) = 1.83 wounds from CC attacks
10x(2/3)(2/3)(1/2) = 10x(2/9), or 2.22 dead Banshees,
2.77 dead Marines per pistol-firing round vs 4.05 dead Banshees. Still very strongly in Marine favor.

Banshees do have a 22" threat range for charging. They have a 20-inch threat range for shooting.

Marines only have a 13" threat range for charging. And only an 18" threat range for rapid fire. But they have a *30*" threat range to shoot the banshees - and even shooting outside rapidfire will outshoot what Banshees can do by *two and a half* times (2.66).

Banshees are bad. But the whole 'We kill half your squad at 12", or a quarter at 24"' thing should be reserved for units that can't kick their asses in CC.

Pistols make 2W Marines outperform vs Banshees by even more.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
10 Marines vs 18.6 Fire Warrors:
Marines:
20x(2/3)(2/3)(1/2) = 20x(2/9) = 4.444 wounds/dead FIre Warriors, or 31.1 points.
FW:
18.6x(1/2)(2/3)(1/3) =37.2x(1/9) = 4.13 wounds/2.06 dead Marines, or 26.78 points.

2W Marines win pitched firefights against *Fire Warriors*. Slightly, but holding their own vs FW is crazy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/12 14:51:36


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Frankly, I don't care how banshees perform at this point. I'm willing to sacrifice them to the scrap heap in order to make 5+ codices function again.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





YOu're not sacrificing one unit: you're sacrificing about 15 codexes to make the remaining 5 "function" again. What troops would still be even on the same page as Marines?
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord





Dallas area, TX

Bharring wrote:
2W Marines win pitched firefights against *Fire Warriors*. Slightly, but holding their own vs FW is crazy.
They are friggin Space Marines. It is not crazy to hold their own vs FW. Marines are the Imperium's "elite". FWs are the T'au s rank-n-file schmoes.
I don't disagree that 13ppm for 2W Marines is powerful and could probably be upped to 15ppm
But as it stands, 13ppm for a 1W Marine is pretty garbage.

-

   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






Give back their OLD armor rules but make it more reasonable. Give them a 5+ on 2d6

Indomitable and tartaros get a 5+ on 2d6
Cataphractii get a 4+ on 2d6

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/12 15:26:57


kill ALL the orks!

1500 pts Legion of the Damned (Salamanders)
1500 point Dewathwings  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hold their own 1v1? They already do that. Eliteism vs redshirtism is managed by points - otherwise, you're asking for the 'elite' armies to actually be more powerful on the tabletop, which is obviously unbalanced. T'au rank-and-file per point *should* outshoot Marines: it's their schtick.

I don't disagree with buffing Marines. I think we agree that 13ppm for 2W marines with no other change is going too far, though.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Bharring wrote:
YOu're not sacrificing one unit: you're sacrificing about 15 codexes to make the remaining 5 "function" again. What troops would still be even on the same page as Marines?

We already have 18 point primaris with 2 wounds....did it invalidate all other troops? I mean come on man...Not even close. They are so bad they don't show up in anyone's list unless they are just playing for fun (much like tactical marines or anything in power armor) - that's not a few points off kind of bad - it's holy crap this unit is 25% over-costed at least. I can tell you why too - the additional wound almost NEVER matters.

Pretty sure the game is dominated right now by 4 point infantry 6 point kabalites and 7 point firewarriors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
Hold their own 1v1? They already do that. Eliteism vs redshirtism is managed by points - otherwise, you're asking for the 'elite' armies to actually be more powerful on the tabletop, which is obviously unbalanced. T'au rank-and-file per point *should* outshoot Marines: it's their schtick.

I don't disagree with buffing Marines. I think we agree that 13ppm for 2W marines with no other change is going too far, though.

I say 14 points but that would also include an additional CC attack as well.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/12 15:43:57


"We are eternal all this pain is an illusion"
-Tool 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sure, those Primaris are overcosted, but saying they're at least 25% overcosted means you think they're worth only 13 points. How would they not be OP at 13ppm? I think you're way off.

The addtional wound never matters? The 4pt Guardsmen, 6pt Kabs, and 7pt Firewarriors have one important thing in common: the additional wound *always* matters against those models. In fact, it matters against *most* of the weapons in the game. It'll be rare you'll run into a DE list with more Dissies than Splinter. Or CWE with more Spears/Reapers than Shuriken.

What troops are supposed to hold their own against 14ppm Marines with 2W with or without an extra CC attack?
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord





Dallas area, TX

14-5ppm 2W Marines are about on par with two 7ppm FW, or two Kabs.
Both is points, and number of wounds total. The Marines have better armour and T, but this is offset by the better weapons of the other choices and the fact that 2 FWs will have 2 weapons against that 1 Marine
Compare 5 2W Marines (10 wounds, 70-75pts) with 10 FWs (10 wounds, 70pts). It's about even, with the advantage STILL on the FWs side, especially in RF range.

Yes, Marines need better offense. but their defense is just sad.

My standpoint is that +1W to all Marines is where you START making them work. Points per model can follow later, but 13ppm is far more appropriate for 2W than for only 1W. 15ppm feels right overall though, for the Primaris Stat line but just a regular bolter.
Actual Primaris Marines need something different, like a special ability that all <Primaris> models share. Maybe their armour reduces damage by 1? Or maybe the bolt rifle becomes S5, AP-1, 30". Primaris can fill the "offensive" gap in the Marine line. That would, afterall, be consistant with why Guililman created them in the first place.

-

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/12 16:16:55


   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






7 point breachers maybe?
Khabs with shredders?
Infantry squads shooting twice?
Crusdians gaurds? flat 2 on all their shooting and d3 in CC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/12 16:18:47


"We are eternal all this pain is an illusion"
-Tool 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






Oh I just realized how to make them good. Let them fo what they actually we're intested for, vanguard stike units. Introduce a new strat for now deathwing terminators

Teleportarium lightning strike 1/3cp: use this stratigem before the battle begins. Select 1/2 units that are in deep strike reserve and have the terminator key word, these units my perform a lightnings strike. They maybe set up within 6 inches of an enemy unit but roll a d6, on 5+ the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.

Deathwing lighting strike 1/3cp: use this stratigem before the battle begins, select 1/2 units in deep strike with the deathwing and terminator key word, along with 1/2 charters with the terminator and deathwing keyword. They may deep strike within 6 inches of an enemy unit, in doing so roll a d6 on a 5+ that unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.

Boom you can now use them as they should have been, shock troopers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/12 16:15:38


kill ALL the orks!

1500 pts Legion of the Damned (Salamanders)
1500 point Dewathwings  
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oh I just realized how to make them good. Let them fo what they actually we're intested for, vanguard stike units. Introduce a new strat for now deathwing terminators

Teleportarium lightning strike 1/3cp: use this stratigem before the battle begins. Select 1/2 units that are in deep strike reserve and have the terminator key word, these units my perform a lightnings strike. They maybe set up within 6 inches of an enemy unit but roll a d6, on 5+ the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.

Deathwing lighting strike 1/3cp: use this stratigem before the battle begins, select 1/2 units in deep strike with the deathwing and terminator key word, along with 1/2 charters with the terminator and deathwing keyword. They may deep strike within 6 inches of an enemy unit, in doing so roll a d6 on a 5+ that unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.

Boom you can now use them as they should have been, shock troopers.

Their issue isn't making it into CC though - their issue is hitting like wet noodels when they get there and dying to a swift breeze after. Pretty bad for a 40 point model. They can deep strike near guilliman and a libby - +1 to charge distance with a reroll charge from a psychic power. Or can just be black templars to get reroll charge for free.

Honestly with their current statline and basic logic. One can tell they are worth 25-27 points currently. Compared to other good units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/12 16:23:23


"We are eternal all this pain is an illusion"
-Tool 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




13 pt intercessors still lose to drukhari handily. They still are paying 13 pts for at most two s4 shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
Sure, those Primaris are overcosted, but saying they're at least 25% overcosted means you think they're worth only 13 points. How would they not be OP at 13ppm? I think you're way off.

The addtional wound never matters? The 4pt Guardsmen, 6pt Kabs, and 7pt Firewarriors have one important thing in common: the additional wound *always* matters against those models. In fact, it matters against *most* of the weapons in the game. It'll be rare you'll run into a DE list with more Dissies than Splinter. Or CWE with more Spears/Reapers than Shuriken.

What troops are supposed to hold their own against 14ppm Marines with 2W with or without an extra CC attack?


Other troops aren't supposed to hold their own. Marine troops are also their elites, fast attack, and heavy support. Marines have to be able to handle grotesques and dark reapers and carnifexes and riptides, because marines don't get distinct choices in their other slots. They get marines with different gear. The fact that marines are comparable to and in fact inferior to most other troops is what's killing them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/12 16:46:36


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Bharring wrote:
10 Marines with +1W. Naked vs Naked, vs 10 Banshees:
Shooting:
Marines:
10x2x(2/3)(2/3)(1/2) = 20x(2/9), or ~ 4.5 dead Banshees

Banshees:
10x1x(2/3)[(1/3)(1/3) + (1/6)(5/6)] = 10x(1/6), or ~ 2 wounds, or 1 dead Marine.

Marines being nearly 5 times as good at shooting isn't really a problem, as Banshee are glass CC units.

CC:
Marines:
10x1(1/2)(2/3)(1/2) = 10x(1/6), or ~ 2 dead Banshees
Banshees:
(10x2+1)(2/3)(1/3)(5/6) = 21(5/27), or ~ 2 dead Marines

So we have a super glass cannon CC unit that gives up a ton of shooting to hit hard in melee, who specializes in killing Tacs. And it's about tied with it's intended target in CC. While getting destroyed 4-5 times as hard in shooting best-case by the same unit.

And they're the same points. And Banshees go from half the durability of Marines pre-change to a quarter of it, for the same price.

Do you see why Marines with +1W might not be ideal?

None of that matters.

Don't compare to something everyone agrees is already terrible.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





"The fact that marines are comparable to and in fact inferior to most other troops is what's killing them."

I think this is the crux of our disagreement. I want Marines to be as viable as other armies, not more viable.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Bharring wrote:
"The fact that marines are comparable to and in fact inferior to most other troops is what's killing them."

I think this is the crux of our disagreement. I want Marines to be as viable as other armies, not more viable.

Well if you are just of the opinion that the whole game needs to be toned down to tac marines and dire avengers power level then just say so.

It's my opinion that - that is nearly impossible. The real outliers in power are those that are exceptionally weak. It's much easier to buff a few weak units to make a the few really weak armies viable than to nerf the entire game.

Such as space marines (practically entire codex including lots of CSM elements too) / eldar aspects / admech detroyers / Necron warriors / entire GK codex/ Tau Crisis suits / ect.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/12 18:38:16


"We are eternal all this pain is an illusion"
-Tool 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
13 pt intercessors still lose to drukhari handily. They still are paying 13 pts for at most two s4 shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
Sure, those Primaris are overcosted, but saying they're at least 25% overcosted means you think they're worth only 13 points. How would they not be OP at 13ppm? I think you're way off.

The addtional wound never matters? The 4pt Guardsmen, 6pt Kabs, and 7pt Firewarriors have one important thing in common: the additional wound *always* matters against those models. In fact, it matters against *most* of the weapons in the game. It'll be rare you'll run into a DE list with more Dissies than Splinter. Or CWE with more Spears/Reapers than Shuriken.

What troops are supposed to hold their own against 14ppm Marines with 2W with or without an extra CC attack?


Other troops aren't supposed to hold their own. Marine troops are also their elites, fast attack, and heavy support. Marines have to be able to handle grotesques and dark reapers and carnifexes and riptides, because marines don't get distinct choices in their other slots. They get marines with different gear. The fact that marines are comparable to and in fact inferior to most other troops is what's killing them.

Intercessors would be fine at 16 points. Anything lower than that is just bad writing on your end.

Also you're right about the Elite and Fast Attack slots. Due to other armies just getting more specialized units, Marinea have to rely on their stats more instead. That's why I'm for BS2+ Sternguard, WS2+ Vanguard, and WS/BS2+ Terminators.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord





Dallas area, TX

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also you're right about the Elite and Fast Attack slots. Due to other armies just getting more specialized units, Marinea have to rely on their stats more instead. That's why I'm for BS2+ Sternguard, WS2+ Vanguard, and WS/BS2+ Terminators.
I support this.
But it does not help Tactical Marines at all, nor does it prevent Terminators for being outright deleted (as they are now) before even getting to use that fancy WS/BS2+, nor does it affect Assault Marines or Devs.
They all NEED the +1W to make a real difference in how they play. Points increases for this would be acceptable, but really only 1-2ppm would be needed.

It probably wouldn't be as noticeable if Assault Marines and Devs had 2W to represent the added bulk of the large weapon/jump pack, but the fact that they don't suggests that wounds don't always represent added bulk, but rather additional endurance to being wounded, which all Marines should have.
This USED to be represented by Toughness, but with the change to the To Wound chart in 8E, slight variations in T are less relevant. T3 and T4 are not different enough to merit such a high point difference (especially when so many T3 troops have better weapons). +1W would represent it far better.

At the very least, this discussion has convinced me to always apply +1W to Marines in my games at home

-

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/07/12 22:02:54


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Galef wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also you're right about the Elite and Fast Attack slots. Due to other armies just getting more specialized units, Marinea have to rely on their stats more instead. That's why I'm for BS2+ Sternguard, WS2+ Vanguard, and WS/BS2+ Terminators.
I support this.
But it does not help Tactical Marines at all, nor does it prevent Terminators for being outright deleted (as they are now) before even getting to use that fancy WS/BS2+, nor does it affect Assault Marines or Devs.
They all NEED the +1W to make a real difference in how they play. Points increases for this would be acceptable, but really on 1-2ppm.

It probably wouldn't be as noticeable if Assault Marines and Devs had 2W to represent the added bulk of the large weapon/jump pack, but the fact that they don't suggests that wounds don't always represent added bulk, but rather additional endurance to being wounded, which all Marines should have.
This USED to be represented by Toughness, but with the change to the To Wound chart in 8E, slight variations in T are less relevant. T3 and T4 are not different enough to merit such a high point difference (especially when so many T3 troops have better weapons). +1W would represent it far better.

At the very least, this discussion has convinced me to always apply +1W to Marines in my games at home

-

Tactical Marines have the following issues:
1. The Bolter sucks, full stop. At least in previous editions it forced some opponents into cover, but now you get that 5+/6+ the whole time so who cares?
2. The weapon selection options is bad. Tons of options aren't good if those options cannot be used in bulk. That's why Plasma Scions work so well (on top of the cheap cost and stuff).
3. The refusal to experiment with fixing any of those items. Yeah free Rhinos WAS a fix...and it was definitely the worst possible idea ever in the game.
4. Those Rhinos having firing points was actually partly important and they shouldn't have lost it.

So my fixes to the Tactical Marine itself doesn't actually involve a total overhaul of the profile, but rather try and fix what they want that Marine to be.
1. Make the Bolter be less bad. Everyone has had different ideas on how to make Bolt weapons fit more akin to fluff. One suggestion I liked was Tesla-Lite with a roll of 6 to hit was counted as two hits. Someone else suggested a wound roll of 6 force two saves. I previously suggested a wound roll of 6 force rerolls of successful saves. Whatever it is, something for Bolt Weapons ought to be there.
2. Tactical Marines get +1LD. This is mostly for fluff reasons (they're not newbies like Scouts and Assault Marines and Devastators), but also helps with anything above minimum size.
3. You get the 1 Special/Heavy at 5 man squads, the opposite one at 7 man squads, and then your choice of another at 10 man squads. So at 10 man squads you have either 2 Specials/1 Heavy or 2 Heavy/1 Special.
4. To better reflect their actual worth make them 11 points base and then the Bolter cost 1 point, or 12 points and pay for the Bolter. It seems silly that the cost of the Bolter is with the model, but they don't get slightly cheaper when they lose it and buy a new weapon.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Bharring wrote:
"The fact that marines are comparable to and in fact inferior to most other troops is what's killing them."

I think this is the crux of our disagreement. I want Marines to be as viable as other armies, not more viable.



They'd only be better than xeno troops, not their specialists/ vehicles. For the army to be viable, the marines have to outstrip xeno troops by a lot.

Marines should beat firewarriors in firefight; badly in fact, because marines are taking it up the ass in every other slot matchup.

I don't want a repeat of 3rd ed, but this is three editions in a row that 90% of my models are unfieldable. This is fething nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was being hyperbolic about intercessors. Altough i think 16ppm is still too high.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/12 23:32:35


 
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord





Dallas area, TX

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Make the Bolter be less bad. Everyone has had different ideas on how to make Bolt weapons fit more akin to fluff. One suggestion I liked was Tesla-Lite with a roll of 6 to hit was counted as two hits. Someone else suggested a wound roll of 6 force two saves. I previously suggested a wound roll of 6 force rerolls of successful saves. Whatever it is, something for Bolt Weapons ought to be there.
Agreed, bolters need work. I personally would have liked Bolt weapons to get what Eldar Shuriken weapons have now: AP-3 on a to-wound roll of 6 to represent the additional damage the exploding round would do.
Shuriken weapons should have just been AP-1 standard, with +1 shot and -1Str. So a Catapult would be Assault 3, S3 Ap-1, Cannon would be Assault 4, S5, AP-1. No special ability needed
Make them slightly better vs infantry (although harder to wound), but very much worse against vehicles (again, harder to wound and no chance of AP-3)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. Tactical Marines get +1LD. This is mostly for fluff reasons (they're not newbies like Scouts and Assault Marines and Devastators), but also helps with anything above minimum size.
All unit leaders should have higher LD, yes, but giving them +1W also reduces casualties. With ATSKNF, even 10-man units would be hard to force Morale.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

3. You get the 1 Special/Heavy at 5 man squads, the opposite one at 7 man squads, and then your choice of another at 10 man squads. So at 10 man squads you have either 2 Specials/1 Heavy or 2 Heavy/1 Special.
A simpler option would be 1 Special/Heavy at 5, or 3 Special/Heavy at 10. It encourages full 10-man squads more, as well as Combat Squad shenanigans

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

4. To better reflect their actual worth make them 11 points base and then the Bolter cost 1 point, or 12 points and pay for the Bolter. It seems silly that the cost of the Bolter is with the model, but they don't get slightly cheaper when they lose it and buy a new weapon.
But no other unit is costed this way. No unit can take a Bolter as an "option". It's always mandatory on every unit that an take a Bolter. Every codex puts a 0 cost on mandatory wargear, which makes sense. You need to think of the other options as 1-2pts less. A melta, for example is actually 18-19ppm, but it takes out the Bolter cost.

-

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/07/12 23:46:39


   
Made in us
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 Galef wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also you're right about the Elite and Fast Attack slots. Due to other armies just getting more specialized units, Marinea have to rely on their stats more instead. That's why I'm for BS2+ Sternguard, WS2+ Vanguard, and WS/BS2+ Terminators.
I support this.
But it does not help Tactical Marines at all, nor does it prevent Terminators for being outright deleted (as they are now) before even getting to use that fancy WS/BS2+, nor does it affect Assault Marines or Devs.
They all NEED the +1W to make a real difference in how they play. Points increases for this would be acceptable, but really only 1-2ppm would be needed.

From an outsider perspective, absolutely agreed.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Galef wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Make the Bolter be less bad. Everyone has had different ideas on how to make Bolt weapons fit more akin to fluff. One suggestion I liked was Tesla-Lite with a roll of 6 to hit was counted as two hits. Someone else suggested a wound roll of 6 force two saves. I previously suggested a wound roll of 6 force rerolls of successful saves. Whatever it is, something for Bolt Weapons ought to be there.
Agreed, bolters need work. I personally would have liked Bolt weapons to get what Eldar Shuriken weapons have now: AP-3 on a to-wound roll of 6 to represent the additional damage the exploding round would do.
Shuriken weapons should have just been AP-1 standard, with +1 shot and -1Str. So a Catapult would be Assault 3, S3 Ap-1, Cannon would be Assault 4, S5, AP-1. No special ability needed
Make them slightly better vs infantry (although harder to wound), but very much worse against vehicles (again, harder to wound and no chance of AP-3)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. Tactical Marines get +1LD. This is mostly for fluff reasons (they're not newbies like Scouts and Assault Marines and Devastators), but also helps with anything above minimum size.
All unit leaders should have higher LD, yes, but giving them +1W also reduces casualties. With ATSKNF, even 10-man units would be hard to force Morale.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

3. You get the 1 Special/Heavy at 5 man squads, the opposite one at 7 man squads, and then your choice of another at 10 man squads. So at 10 man squads you have either 2 Specials/1 Heavy or 2 Heavy/1 Special.
A simpler option would be 1 Special/Heavy at 5, or 3 Special/Heavy at 10. It encourages full 10-man squads more, as well as Combat Squad shenanigans

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

4. To better reflect their actual worth make them 11 points base and then the Bolter cost 1 point, or 12 points and pay for the Bolter. It seems silly that the cost of the Bolter is with the model, but they don't get slightly cheaper when they lose it and buy a new weapon.
But no other unit is costed this way. No unit can take a Bolter as an "option". It's always mandatory on every unit that an take a Bolter. Every codex puts a 0 cost on mandatory wargear, which makes sense. You need to think of the other options as 1-2pts less. A melta, for example is actually 18-19ppm, but it takes out the Bolter cost.

-

1. While I'm not adverse to doing the weapons like you want, it requires more rewriting and therefore more needing of rebalancing.
2. Yeah multiple wounds help everything. Not having multiple wounds last edition though wasn't their issue, nor was it the issue in 6th or 5th or 4th. It was always strictly offense. If you want more defense, there ARE options (Raven Guard and Alpha Legion, Iron Hands and Death Guard, Thousand Sons, 6+++ various auras).
3. That kinda just makes them Crusader Squads. I'm looking to try and do something creative here, while appeasing to the silly fluffbunnies that insist that Tactical Marines work. At all.
4. You're probably right. I was more thinking about how Sternguard mostly work, but it's probably simpler to just ignore that part. So I'd have my buffs keep them at 12 point models, and Vets would be 15 I guess?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
Angry Chaos Agitator




Bolters do have a pricetag, you'll find it in the IG and IG-wannabees books. 1pt.
Shouldn't we technically allow Marines to buy a Bolt Rifle for 1pt.? I mean Cawl pulled Primaris Marines out of his cavern, but certainly he will have enough Boltrifles stockpiled to spread the love no?
Additionally we should be allowed to buy additional weaponry for tac marines for another point, like a chainsword.Ergo be able to give the full Allrounder-kit to marines? (Bolter, Boltpistol, Chainsword).

The only problem would be that CSM don't have Boltrifles. What about something more thematic along the side of the warcrime weaponry? Phosephex greanades? Diffrent ammo types?

A 2w profile would surely help, scalling that with the Terminators to 3w would also help most likely.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I don't want Tactical Marines to get Chainswords as that's stepping on the toes of Grey Hunters and Chaos Marines. I'd rather try and keep them all different.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Martel732 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
"The fact that marines are comparable to and in fact inferior to most other troops is what's killing them."

I think this is the crux of our disagreement. I want Marines to be as viable as other armies, not more viable.



They'd only be better than xeno troops, not their specialists/ vehicles. For the army to be viable, the marines have to outstrip xeno troops by a lot.

Marines should beat firewarriors in firefight; badly in fact, because marines are taking it up the ass in every other slot matchup.

I don't want a repeat of 3rd ed, but this is three editions in a row that 90% of my models are unfieldable. This is fething nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was being hyperbolic about intercessors. Altough i think 16ppm is still too high.

Yeah I agree - That's why I want them to be 20 points with 3 wounds and 3 attacks.
With their weapons changing slightly. Stalkers gain the sniper rule and +2 points. The assault bolters become assault 3 18" range. Bolt rifles remain the same.

Then - for an elite slot I hope we eventually get primaris vetren squads attacks goes to 4 with their cost being like 24 - 28 depending on their weapons loadouts...where everyone has master crafted bolt guns or mast crafted auto bolt rifles or master crafted stalkers also with the options for melle loadouts - axes/ swords and shields.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/13 16:20:09


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