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So to get back on track, Terminators either need +1W to be worthwhile, or about a 10ppm drop. At less than 30ppm, then might be ok with only 2W, but they'd still suffer hugely to Plasma and Autocannon spam.
With their Invul being largely redundant, it might be cool to swap that for a rule the reduces damage by 1 as mentioned.

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Edit: I give up. Sure, Marines are less durable per point than the armies that have to pay more for models with the same or worse defensive stats. Sure. I'll back out of this thread.

Bharring wrote:
Edit: I give up. Sure, Marines are less durable per point than the armies that have to pay more for models with the same or worse defensive stats. Sure. I'll back out of this thread.

I never said that. But sure.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Edit: I give up. Sure, Marines are less durable per point than the armies that have to pay more for models with the same or worse defensive stats. Sure. I'll back out of this thread.

I never said that. But sure.

Yeah. And I never said that "A" Marine was less durable. I was arguing the "Marines as an army" have been proven to be the least durable and that needs to be fixed.

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T7 3+ vehicles with no special rules are pretty miserable too.

As a marine player I agree with the points that Bharring is trying to make. Not that I agree wholly because the durability of marines is problematic (it feels like our tanks are made of paper and anything a competitive enemy wants dead dies).

The problem with marines isn't only their defense, our offense is really bad. Bolters don't work to fight hordes/elites/vehicles so the tac marine has no point and that futility flows through the whole codex.

Most marine units are too slow to do anything worth while. Pods are crazy over priced, with the increase of CP for armies and the ubiquitous deepstrike strats they serve next to no purpose and not at the price they are (what 2 of them will get you a guard CP battery that gives you 5 cp + the ones they regen allow some armies to deepstrike 3 units at least + 2+ CP remaining not to mention the utility of the guard bodies...)

Increasing the termie ws/bs to 2 doesn't help because they are still armed with bolters (which have anemic offensive out-put > 12" and get 2 attacks each with mediocre and expensive CCW weapon.

The "good" units combine mobility or long range with out sized offensive output (ravagers, de transports, grots, shining spears, reapers, eldar/de flyers, custode bikers, knights, princes with wings, oblits, genestealers, tau commanders, flyrants, hive guard, guard artillery, hell-hounds) the common theme is good movement/range, strat/spell support and unit killing offensive out-put. There are outliers who rely on out sized durability (deathguard, custode bike captains)

The marine book is lacking units that do these things. Termies could be them but they need their mobility changed (i.e. my teleport strike rule suggestion) and offensive output (double their shots w/ a -1 ap, special/heavy weapon saturation) changes to assault marines (3 attacks +1 on charge or whatever).

Another problem is all the bespoke rules tacked onto the basic SM units. Balancing a codex space marine terminator is one thing but then you start giving them rules like BA or Chaos and now you have an entirely different beast. I think this requires thinking of the marine+1 armies as different and not just porting the vanilla marine to their codexes. Either that or the power for vanilla marines needs to be implemented through unique strats...

Can we keep this about terminators?

Can anyone argue against the fact that 220 points of supported gaurdsmen shooting nothing but lasguns at terminators kill 100 points of terminators?

220 points of firewarriors + cadre does similar damage
220 points of guardians almost wipes the squad
Oh surprise surprise 220 points of marines with bolters kills 40 points of terms.

So 2 things are clear here.
#1 Terminators are not durable vs small arms.
#2 Unless they are being shot at by tactical marines.

No, we can't, because the problems with baseline marines get inherited by terminators. Custodes stole terminators' game space. Period.

I am convinced we can make space for a unit like terminators. They just need to be sufficiently priced for what they do.

+1W gives them much better durability. That is still not enough for them. +1 attack and ether bs ws 2+ or always hit on 3's is also needed. Then they are close to their actual value.

How similar is that to a Custodes, though?

Custodes are +1s +1T and have a 4++ save and +1move. For the 12 more points they pay - it is absolutely fair.
The custode still wins in CC and shooting as well - plus the ability to take storm sheilds.

They will hit and wound on the same numbers against each other with the term being dropped to a 5+ save in CC but the custode getting a 4++ / both do d3 damage.

In shooting we are talking 4 str 4 shots ap 0 vs 2 shots str 4 ap-1 d2.

Like seriously...A term will have a better time vs t6-t8 targets but ultimately custodian guards are troop choices - there has to be some trade off here. Custodian terminators that have the str 8 weapons should get a proper buff because they are underpowered - these changes would make terms worth it.

In this comparison I think the always hit on 3's rule is better than 2+ WS and BS because it allows more elite units to be represented when they fight against terms but it allows terms to have reasonable damage with a powerfist which hitting on 4's is worthless.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am convinced we can make space for a unit like terminators. They just need to be sufficiently priced for what they do.

+1W gives them much better durability. That is still not enough for them. +1 attack and ether bs ws 2+ or always hit on 3's is also needed. Then they are close to their actual value.

Agreed. Alternatively, we leave them as-is and drop their points dramatically (by about half). This alternative "feels" wrong but it would better represent what they are actually worth.

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I'm always going to favor cheaper, weaker models in 8th. Being in more places at once and losing less to failed saves dominates 8th.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am convinced we can make space for a unit like terminators. They just need to be sufficiently priced for what they do.

+1W gives them much better durability. That is still not enough for them. +1 attack and ether bs ws 2+ or always hit on 3's is also needed. Then they are close to their actual value.

Agreed. Alternatively, we leave them as-is and drop their points dramatically (by about half). This alternative "feels" wrong but it would better represent what they are actually worth.

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Well then we run into another issue. We run out of room to improve other units that need fixing (even outside of the marine codex) Like Tyranid warriors for example. Properly armed they are 27 points and clearly inferior to a 25 point terminator. They probably deserve a decent price cutt too but I feel like buffs work better because they give you more space to work with.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm always going to favor cheaper, weaker models in 8th. Being in more places at once and losing less to failed saves dominates 8th.

I agree from a "what is tactically better" standpoint. But these are Terminators for Emperor's sake. They are supposed to be few, but hard to kill.
Marines too, in general. Marines aren't meant to "horde". Giving all Marines +1W, including Termies, at no additional cost should be the compromise between making them live up to their fluff and being balanced for what they do.
Marines should be quality, not quantity, even if 8E prefers quantity

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Quantity is quality in 8th. Quality is completely short-circuited by 15 pt disintegrators and 13 pt plasmas. It's too widespread to fight against in general, I think.

Martel732 wrote:
Quantity is quality in 8th. Quality is completely short-circuited by 15 pt disintegrators and 13 pt plasmas.

Well - disse cannons are clearly under-costed...they are better at killing tanks than dark lances...it's pretty obvious the weapon needs adjustment - like straight up Nerf to 1 damage would still leave them as a great choice for 15 points and give it a clear anti infantry roll. Or increase it's cost to 25.

Plasma I don't have such a huge problem with. Except that too many models are paying a premium for 2 wounds. Remove that by giving the majority of the suffering 2 wound models 3 wounds. There we go. Plasma will fall out of favor quickly with the prevalence of on demand -1 to hit which turns plasma into a weapon equally likely to kill yourself compared to your opponents models. Mainly it should probably be more limited in number on really cheap units like sions....

Martel732 wrote:
Quantity is quality in 8th. Quality is completely short-circuited by 15 pt disintegrators and 13 pt plasmas.

And that is a problem. So while discussing proposed rules to make something better, shouldn't we address multiple problems, rather than accepting them?
Clearly Dissies need to be D1 or 20+pts.
This is another reason why I am so adamant about Marines needing +1W. It addresses super efficient weapons for Marines without overcorrecting for all those weapons.

There should be a gap. If every faction has 5ppm Troops, than what is the point of diversity? Some things need to be more expensive, but should also be worth that extra expense.
Having multiple wounds solves this. GW started to move in this direction when they gave all Termies 2W. They just didn't go far enough (or went too far with multi-damage weapons?)

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Agreed there should be more of a gap. I just think that takes a huge redesign of almost everything.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
DE are certainly more durable per point. Kabs are dirt cheap. Wracks and Grots are super durable. No argument there.

Are you saying that T3 5+ are more durable than T4 3+, even per point at 8ppm vs 13ppm, because CWE can spend several command points and psykic powers and such to make them more durable? Well, sure, if you don't count the psker points and consider CP free. Before powers/CP, they die a lot faster per point to most weapons. As in, more than twice as fast to Boltguns and Lasguns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"They can all get up"? No more roll? I'm way behind on my Necrons. I didn't realize that they could do that. Or that only their opponents' dice can fail sometimes.

Yeah ofc they have to roll. Slayer was trying to completely dismiss reanimation protocols. Reanimation makes crons more durable than marines - there is no question about it. Point is - if you have some bad dice against marines - the things you killed stay dead. Vs crons - you can lose a whole turn if that happens.

Then ofc - quantum shielding. Overall the most powerful defensive ability in the game.

You literally discredit yourself once you say RP makes Necrons durable.

I really don't...Necrons have an ability with the potential to remove all losses from a shooting phase. Provided they can't sink the final wound.
In this situation - you are at the very least forced to shoot weapons you need to shoot somewhere else to make sure they don't get back up.

I more than welcome you to go into the Necron Tactica with us and talk about how powerful RP is, especially when it doesnt work with models that run away either.

Please. I insist. I need a reason to get out the popcorn.

It's not that powerful, it's just better than what tac marines have.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
DE are certainly more durable per point. Kabs are dirt cheap. Wracks and Grots are super durable. No argument there.

Are you saying that T3 5+ are more durable than T4 3+, even per point at 8ppm vs 13ppm, because CWE can spend several command points and psykic powers and such to make them more durable? Well, sure, if you don't count the psker points and consider CP free. Before powers/CP, they die a lot faster per point to most weapons. As in, more than twice as fast to Boltguns and Lasguns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"They can all get up"? No more roll? I'm way behind on my Necrons. I didn't realize that they could do that. Or that only their opponents' dice can fail sometimes.

Yeah ofc they have to roll. Slayer was trying to completely dismiss reanimation protocols. Reanimation makes crons more durable than marines - there is no question about it. Point is - if you have some bad dice against marines - the things you killed stay dead. Vs crons - you can lose a whole turn if that happens.

Then ofc - quantum shielding. Overall the most powerful defensive ability in the game.

You literally discredit yourself once you say RP makes Necrons durable.

I really don't...Necrons have an ability with the potential to remove all losses from a shooting phase. Provided they can't sink the final wound.
In this situation - you are at the very least forced to shoot weapons you need to shoot somewhere else to make sure they don't get back up.

I more than welcome you to go into the Necron Tactica with us and talk about how powerful RP is, especially when it doesnt work with models that run away either.

Please. I insist. I need a reason to get out the popcorn.

It's better than ATSKNF - I will trade them.
Necrons are practically immune to leadership with LD10 anyways. Then there is always the 2 CP to auto pass - which is practically factored into your battle plan when using a huge unit of warriors or something with a ghost arc. What usually happens is...instead of shooting at your 20 man - people just ignore it because they know 20 warriors rerolling RP they might as well surrender the game if they shoot at it and fail to kill it.

Necrons have their own issues - I am not exactly sure why they don't do better than they do. They have stuff that is pretty broken...like transcendent ctans and doomsday arcs.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Quantity is quality in 8th. Quality is completely short-circuited by 15 pt disintegrators and 13 pt plasmas.

Well - disse cannons are clearly under-costed...they are better at killing tanks than dark lances...it's pretty obvious the weapon needs adjustment - like straight up Nerf to 1 damage would still leave them as a great choice for 15 points and give it a clear anti infantry roll. Or increase it's cost to 25.

Plasma I don't have such a huge problem with. Except that too many models are paying a premium for 2 wounds. Remove that by giving the majority of the suffering 2 wound models 3 wounds. There we go. Plasma will fall out of favor quickly with the prevalence of on demand -1 to hit which turns plasma into a weapon equally likely to kill yourself compared to your opponents models. Mainly it should probably be more limited in number on really cheap units like sions....

Then maybe just some models get a readjustment. I don't think most people are opposed to 17 point Intercessors, but we shouldn't just give them 3 wounds because.

The Disintegration is a whole other issue and we both know most people agree it needs a point bump.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
DE are certainly more durable per point. Kabs are dirt cheap. Wracks and Grots are super durable. No argument there.

Are you saying that T3 5+ are more durable than T4 3+, even per point at 8ppm vs 13ppm, because CWE can spend several command points and psykic powers and such to make them more durable? Well, sure, if you don't count the psker points and consider CP free. Before powers/CP, they die a lot faster per point to most weapons. As in, more than twice as fast to Boltguns and Lasguns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"They can all get up"? No more roll? I'm way behind on my Necrons. I didn't realize that they could do that. Or that only their opponents' dice can fail sometimes.

Yeah ofc they have to roll. Slayer was trying to completely dismiss reanimation protocols. Reanimation makes crons more durable than marines - there is no question about it. Point is - if you have some bad dice against marines - the things you killed stay dead. Vs crons - you can lose a whole turn if that happens.

Then ofc - quantum shielding. Overall the most powerful defensive ability in the game.

You literally discredit yourself once you say RP makes Necrons durable.

I really don't...Necrons have an ability with the potential to remove all losses from a shooting phase. Provided they can't sink the final wound.
In this situation - you are at the very least forced to shoot weapons you need to shoot somewhere else to make sure they don't get back up.

I more than welcome you to go into the Necron Tactica with us and talk about how powerful RP is, especially when it doesnt work with models that run away either.

Please. I insist. I need a reason to get out the popcorn.

It's better than ATSKNF - I will trade them.
Necrons are practically immune to leadership with LD10 anyways. Then there is always the 2 CP to auto pass - which is practically factored into your battle plan when using a huge unit of warriors or something with a ghost arc. What usually happens is...instead of shooting at your 20 man - people just ignore it because they know 20 warriors rerolling RP they might as well surrender the game if they shoot at it and fail to kill it.

Necrons have their own issues - I am not exactly sure why they don't do better than they do. They have stuff that is pretty broken...like transcendent ctans and doomsday arcs.

Now you're really out of touch if you think Doomsday Arks and any variant of the C'Tan is broken.

Out of touch how? D6 str 10 shots with ap-5 and D6 damage 72" range is amazing. 14 W is amazing. Quantum sheilding is amazing. The price is undercosted.
Ctans are some of the best mortal wound generators in the game. Uncounterable also.

Also - you aren't fully appreciating the problem if you think a 1 point drop on an intercessor is a solution.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Out of touch how? D6 str 10 shots with ap-5 and D6 damage 72" range is amazing. 14 W is amazing. Quantum sheilding is amazing. The price is undercosted.
Ctans are some of the best mortal wound generators in the game. Uncounterable also.

Also - you aren't fully appreciating the problem if you think a 1 point drop on an intercessor is a solution.

I'm also not trying to propose giving everyone under the sun 2 wounds like you guys want.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can we keep this about terminators?

Can anyone argue against the fact that 220 points of supported gaurdsmen shooting nothing but lasguns at terminators kill 100 points of terminators?

220 points of firewarriors + cadre does similar damage
220 points of guardians almost wipes the squad
Oh surprise surprise 220 points of marines with bolters kills 40 points of terms.

So 2 things are clear here.
#1 Terminators are not durable vs small arms.
#2 Unless they are being shot at by tactical marines.

Since you asked I will argue, though it won't disprove your point. To get into rf range the terminators would need to teleport in the round prior, getting the opportunity to shoot down a few guards/Shas. Not all that many since storm bolters aren't awe inspiring, and they might even get into melee which prevents a few units from shooting however unlikely the 9"charge is.

I'm still very opposed to giving terminators the dark reaper rule, or even 2+ offence. If marines and terminators don't do enough damage maybe they need more shots per body. These threads are rife with feature creep though.

I do think that cheap bodies need a reason to be relevant, such as wounds not spilling, weight of dice, low cost of taking mw. And agree that cp on top of it is a bit too much. There are obviously many things to adjust in the codex, but going heavy handed on buffs first might not be the way.

Plas and fists need adjustment. Glass cannons could use some tempering, the game as a whole could get more active with less killiness. So ok, give terminators some points off and the wide spread changes then see how it goes. Maybe I'll do a few skirmishes to see how it feels tonight.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think tac marines should have primaris stats and be pointed at ~16 ppm, including having "bolt rifles" that are str4 ap-1 d1. Keep the standard str4 ap0 boltguns for sisters and imperial guard as they are the smaller, human sized bolters and it makes sense as they should have less stopping power. Then the other models in the marine line can go up from there. Tac sergeants should have +1L and +1A. Terminators should have 3W, 3A... but +2 WS and BS might be a bit much though, although I do think their shooting damage output is low.

I am an IG player. From a purely outside perspective I acknowledge marines are weak and need buffs. Also from an outsider perspective I'd like to see marines get stronger instead of cheaper. It fits the faction's theme better. Contrary to what Martel thinks I do think elite armies can work in 8th if they are pointed appropriately. Custodes are proof of that. Looking at GK and current space marines and assuming that all elite armies will turn out like them is a bad assumption to make IMO.

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can we keep this about terminators?

Can anyone argue against the fact that 220 points of supported gaurdsmen shooting nothing but lasguns at terminators kill 100 points of terminators?

220 points of firewarriors + cadre does similar damage
220 points of guardians almost wipes the squad
Oh surprise surprise 220 points of marines with bolters kills 40 points of terms.

So 2 things are clear here.
#1 Terminators are not durable vs small arms.
#2 Unless they are being shot at by tactical marines.

Since you asked I will argue, though it won't disprove your point. To get into rf range the terminators would need to teleport in the round prior, getting the opportunity to shoot down a few guards/Shas. Not all that many since storm bolters aren't awe inspiring, and they might even get into melee which prevents a few units from shooting however unlikely the 9"charge is.

I'm still very opposed to giving terminators the dark reaper rule, or even 2+ offence. If marines and terminators don't do enough damage maybe they need more shots per body. These threads are rife with feature creep though.

I do think that cheap bodies need a reason to be relevant, such as wounds not spilling, weight of dice, low cost of taking mw. And agree that cp on top of it is a bit too much. There are obviously many things to adjust in the codex, but going heavy handed on buffs first might not be the way.

Plas and fists need adjustment. Glass cannons could use some tempering, the game as a whole could get more active with less killiness. So ok, give terminators some points off and the wide spread changes then see how it goes. Maybe I'll do a few skirmishes to see how it feels tonight.

Would be interested to know how it goes with your skirmishes. I'd really like to know how everyone terminator house rules are going. I am going to try my ideas out too. Lets see if it breaks the game.

10 Marines with +1W. Naked vs Naked, vs 10 Banshees:
Shooting:
Marines:
10x2x(2/3)(2/3)(1/2) = 20x(2/9), or ~ 4.5 dead Banshees

Banshees:
10x1x(2/3)[(1/3)(1/3) + (1/6)(5/6)] = 10x(1/6), or ~ 2 wounds, or 1 dead Marine.

Marines being nearly 5 times as good at shooting isn't really a problem, as Banshee are glass CC units.

CC:
Marines:
10x1(1/2)(2/3)(1/2) = 10x(1/6), or ~ 2 dead Banshees
Banshees:
(10x2+1)(2/3)(1/3)(5/6) = 21(5/27), or ~ 2 dead Marines

So we have a super glass cannon CC unit that gives up a ton of shooting to hit hard in melee, who specializes in killing Tacs. And it's about tied with it's intended target in CC. While getting destroyed 4-5 times as hard in shooting best-case by the same unit.

And they're the same points. And Banshees go from half the durability of Marines pre-change to a quarter of it, for the same price.

Do you see why Marines with +1W might not be ideal?

aspect warriors are virtually all overcosted.

All you are doing is showing that aspect warriors need help to - which everyone will agree with. Also - banshees don't specialize at killing anything with str 3 - they need a redesign. Honestly a witch at 8 points is better than a banshee. They should have stats more like Incubi but cost more like what they cost now.