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Made in us
Uhlan





 Mr. Grey wrote:
For me the problem happened when they gave up Page 5. Things grew under Page 5, they didn't shrink. That happened with PP gave up its punk, in your face, alternative image to follow GW's foot steps. They haven't gotten to the same level of audience pandering as some other companies like WOTC to get the younger woke audience, but not everyone wants to be woke or have your standard vanilla corporate experience with a product.

As a brand you always double down on audience and experience your product provides. You never vanilla-ify it when there are other vanilla options out there and are market dominate. It wasn't like PP was cratering under Page 5 and when they removed it in MK3 they had a rush of consumers who were just waiting for PP to toe the woke line and left after thinking "what is the problematic legacy of Page 5"?

Page 5 gave PP a huge audience with military, small business owners, civilian rebellious types from the hacker-space and others. When Page 5 was removed in Mk3, I remember alot of people from those backgrounds being iffy about the future of PP.

If PP was just going to vanilla-ify their brand and follow the footsteps of GW instead of being innovative, what was the point? PP was the same company that did a CID process when working on Mk2 when the industry didn't even have a term for it. Open play test was a digital term.



Page 5 was the very epitome of cool and in-your-face aggressiveness back in 2003, 18 years ago, when Warmachine Prime first released, because Privateer Press at the time was a nobody company trying to edge into a market that was completely dominated by all things Games Workshop. Both Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy Battle were THE wargames on the market and at a guess, had probably 90% of the customer base. Page 5 was a very tongue in cheek call out attempt to grab the interest of competitive players by being brash and forward about what the game represented. I think it certainly worked on a lot of people.

Have you read the original Page 5 recently? Because I have, and it really, really, really hasn't aged well at all. In fact, today it reads a little like it was written by some edgelord teenager on a livejournal blog trying to intimidate and bully his enemies. And whatever you may think about Page 5, I don't think it is or was a great way to retain modern customers. Just look at any discussion on Warmachine and you'll inevitably find stories about potential new players who get absolutely curb stomped during a demo game due to the Page 5 attitude of the person giving the demo and then never return. I've heard so many complaints about the way that Page 5 seemed to give competitive jerks an excuse to be absolute donkey caves to all of their opponents.

Whatever you may think, it's not about being "woke" as much as it is about today's new players wanting a fun game experience. Frankly I'm glad that Page 5 has gone, because all it did was drag down the game, and even now a lot of people still have bad memories about the experience.


Taking it out in Mk3 and totally leaving behind their indie roots to imitate GW really exploded their player base. Hell, I can't even wander into a random game store without encountering WMH players taking up all the tables!

"A good way to test the popularity is look up an IP for a lore chan, battle report, whatever and see the views and subs for those chans.

Battle report views over last month

40k - 110k - 123k

AoS - 2k - 33k

SWL - 4k-5k

Marvel Crisis Protocol -1k - 2k (big splash on views when 1st drop, recent numbers are low, probably wont support license cost unlike SWL)

Infinity - 1k - 2k

Battletech 100's - 2k

Malifaux - 100's - 2k

Kings of War - 100's - 1k (other Mantic properties did 0 interactions for the month)

Warmachine and Hordes 100s - 1k (other PP properties did 0 interactions for the month)





Lore video views over last month

40k - 100k - 333k

Marvel Crisis Protocol - 100's - 256k (Same as with SWL, IP views is not translating into miniature game interactions)

SWL - 40k - 247k (the gap between people who engage with the lore vs the licensed game is pretty big, makes me wonder if Asmodee can keep releases going)

AoS - 4k - 15k (for non video game content)

Battletech 100's - 9k (shows a healthy relationship between lore and gameplay interactions)

Kings of War - 100's

Malifaux - 100's (lore is picking up albeit, like Warmachine still pretty low but matching with the number of gameplay interactions)

Warmachine and Hordes 10s

Infinity - none for this month, seems like a year ago lore was really taking off with 6k - 7k views. No interactions today over a month is not a good sign.



The writting on the wall is pretty clear. I would be surprised if SWL and MCP remain a thing due to the disparity between IP lore engagement is not translating to hobby miniature sales. Especially with Marvel licensing out to HeroClix and their Deep Cuts line making, well deep cuts. Battletech seems like the King of the Bottom Tier when it comes to owned IP vs licensed and they got their other properities like video games to lean on.

When it comes to Mantic, Wyrd, PP, and Corvis Bell; their footprint is incredibly small. Like they could probably make more money doing 40k lore videos small. So it is actually surprising they can put out product and have anything resembling a scene.

I hope this puts things into perspectve and does a Great Reset on expectations. And before people say "well back in the day PP", Miranda's Wargamer Girl top vid is like 61k, 7 years old, top notch production quality, while your BB Stan 40k battle report easily doubles that in a month. And she has top count.

Best thing these companies can do is take from BT's book and KS some HareBrain Schemes scale of their Shadowrun and Battletech in IKRPG, Through the Breach, Vanguard, and Paradiso."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Octopoid wrote:
Cronch wrote:
I did read the Prime mk1 page 5. And it was an excuse. And in mk2 they toned it down, but by that point you managed to foster a whole community focused on WAAC and everyone and their mother knew what Page5 meant in practice.


This. It was "cool" and "edgy" when it came out. Now, even with the disclaimers, it's a relic of a bygone era, and good riddance. People who legitimately and un-ironically miss Page 5 make me wary and disinclined to play them or the game in general.

"Fortunately" (?), in my area there's no scene anyway, so it doesn't matter. The "scene" for me is me and a friend who play once every six months or so. So take my input with a grain of salt.


Lol, Page 5 was everything that was wrong with the game, glad they abandoned it.BTW the game is dead in my area and I don't play anymore. Grain of salt? This is a disjointed, cognitively dissonate salt mine!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
Culture divide I think has to be part of it because page 5 is something I never really heard of as a "problem" or anything in the UK at all. In fact it still surprises me that a single page in the whole thing that basically says "play nice, play well" creates such contention


Cultural divide in the US was has most peope who compalin about Page 5 are or were not players. They are mostly lurkers who did a demo game one time, 5 years ago. When PP abandoned is indie atitude and page 5 was gone in Mk3 had people just up in leave right away and some in a year.

PP abandoning Page 5 was PP abandoning all its successful indie strategies to imitate GW. Well publically traded companies that I can buy stock in play by different rules. PP learned that the hard way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LoS_Jaden wrote:
Sorry to completely change the topic, but Phil has finished up the last of the Brawlmachine primer articles with Retribution!


https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/5/7/brawlmachine-list-building-retribution-of-scyrah


Very cool I have a friend who is getting back into it with Ret, so I will pass this along.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/12 18:49:02


 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




I've always read page 5 as "don't be a powergamer".

.."no pride to be won with a fail-safe formula..." "damn the status-quo" "defy convention"
is clearly
"don't copy other people's successful lists from the internet" and "come up with your own, risky, unorthodox ideas" in my opinion.
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






marxlives wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
For me the problem happened when they gave up Page 5. Things grew under Page 5, they didn't shrink. That happened with PP gave up its punk, in your face, alternative image to follow GW's foot steps. They haven't gotten to the same level of audience pandering as some other companies like WOTC to get the younger woke audience, but not everyone wants to be woke or have your standard vanilla corporate experience with a product.

As a brand you always double down on audience and experience your product provides. You never vanilla-ify it when there are other vanilla options out there and are market dominate. It wasn't like PP was cratering under Page 5 and when they removed it in MK3 they had a rush of consumers who were just waiting for PP to toe the woke line and left after thinking "what is the problematic legacy of Page 5"?

Page 5 gave PP a huge audience with military, small business owners, civilian rebellious types from the hacker-space and others. When Page 5 was removed in Mk3, I remember alot of people from those backgrounds being iffy about the future of PP.

If PP was just going to vanilla-ify their brand and follow the footsteps of GW instead of being innovative, what was the point? PP was the same company that did a CID process when working on Mk2 when the industry didn't even have a term for it. Open play test was a digital term.



Page 5 was the very epitome of cool and in-your-face aggressiveness back in 2003, 18 years ago, when Warmachine Prime first released, because Privateer Press at the time was a nobody company trying to edge into a market that was completely dominated by all things Games Workshop. Both Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy Battle were THE wargames on the market and at a guess, had probably 90% of the customer base. Page 5 was a very tongue in cheek call out attempt to grab the interest of competitive players by being brash and forward about what the game represented. I think it certainly worked on a lot of people.

Have you read the original Page 5 recently? Because I have, and it really, really, really hasn't aged well at all. In fact, today it reads a little like it was written by some edgelord teenager on a livejournal blog trying to intimidate and bully his enemies. And whatever you may think about Page 5, I don't think it is or was a great way to retain modern customers. Just look at any discussion on Warmachine and you'll inevitably find stories about potential new players who get absolutely curb stomped during a demo game due to the Page 5 attitude of the person giving the demo and then never return. I've heard so many complaints about the way that Page 5 seemed to give competitive jerks an excuse to be absolute donkey caves to all of their opponents.

Whatever you may think, it's not about being "woke" as much as it is about today's new players wanting a fun game experience. Frankly I'm glad that Page 5 has gone, because all it did was drag down the game, and even now a lot of people still have bad memories about the experience.


Taking it out in Mk3 and totally leaving behind their indie roots to imitate GW really exploded their player base. Hell, I can't even wander into a random game store without encountering WMH players taking up all the tables!

"A good way to test the popularity is look up an IP for a lore chan, battle report, whatever and see the views and subs for those chans.

Battle report views over last month

40k - 110k - 123k

AoS - 2k - 33k

SWL - 4k-5k

Marvel Crisis Protocol -1k - 2k (big splash on views when 1st drop, recent numbers are low, probably wont support license cost unlike SWL)

Infinity - 1k - 2k

Battletech 100's - 2k

Malifaux - 100's - 2k

Kings of War - 100's - 1k (other Mantic properties did 0 interactions for the month)

Warmachine and Hordes 100s - 1k (other PP properties did 0 interactions for the month)





Lore video views over last month

40k - 100k - 333k

Marvel Crisis Protocol - 100's - 256k (Same as with SWL, IP views is not translating into miniature game interactions)

SWL - 40k - 247k (the gap between people who engage with the lore vs the licensed game is pretty big, makes me wonder if Asmodee can keep releases going)

AoS - 4k - 15k (for non video game content)

Battletech 100's - 9k (shows a healthy relationship between lore and gameplay interactions)

Kings of War - 100's

Malifaux - 100's (lore is picking up albeit, like Warmachine still pretty low but matching with the number of gameplay interactions)

Warmachine and Hordes 10s

Infinity - none for this month, seems like a year ago lore was really taking off with 6k - 7k views. No interactions today over a month is not a good sign.



The writting on the wall is pretty clear. I would be surprised if SWL and MCP remain a thing due to the disparity between IP lore engagement is not translating to hobby miniature sales. Especially with Marvel licensing out to HeroClix and their Deep Cuts line making, well deep cuts. Battletech seems like the King of the Bottom Tier when it comes to owned IP vs licensed and they got their other properities like video games to lean on.



Lol if you think MCP is gonna die anytime soon, its a growing game that is blowing up. people love it. and star wars legion.
Youtube channels are not a good way to guage lol.
One thing to remember, several of the designers behind the game designed alot of warmachine.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Overread wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Monkeysloth wrote:
One line does not make a player base toxic. Nor does it keep thousands of people playing.
I am sorry to say; you've got a real rude awakening on the horizon


Are you suggesting that the way to restore Warmachine is simply to release the MK3 rules with the original Page 5 from MK1 restored?




if you're someone that says either "I normally wouldn't be a jerk but this one page give me justification so I will" then you've got other issues at hand. If you really love the game and everything about MK3 and stopped playing because of the Page 5 removal and that by adding it back you'd start playing again then I don't know how to respond without sounding insulting.

LunarSol wrote:
 Monkeysloth wrote:

That's, again, just a rumor but usually with these things the simplest explanation is the correct one. That blind buy Pre-paints just died, surprisingly quick, and at the time it was too expensive to do non-blind figures.


Just a bit of inside ball. I was friends with some people working on a pretty successful prepaint line (not MonPoc) at the time and basically what happened was the quotes for new models started coming back at 600%+ of what they'd been, making them completely unmarketable. No new orders, but because plenty of stuff had already been paid for, it took a year or two for releases in the pipeline to bleed out. A lot of games tried to keep things going by repurposing existing stock and hoping they could ride it out until prices became reasonable (99% sure this is why PP put out the faction box sets). Even Clix died at the time and at the dawn of the MCU no less. I'm sure it would have stayed dead if a sudden massive demand for superhero stuff hadn't revived it.


That's a very interesting. I was big into clix at the time and it was really bouncing back and forth between dead and alive and volitile prices were not something I was considering as generally one of the reasons for plastic was stable pricing, unlike metal which swings a lot. Maybe there was just too much demand for the number of factories that could do the work? As prepainted were really popular back then.

Charistoph wrote:

I don't know if they died, but rather never got the community support that the producers thought they would get. AT-43 came out at about the same time and while it was interesting with some very well done models, also fell flat. Part of the reasoning at the time is that they were being released in hobby game stores, but there was no hobby needed for them.

Of course, fast forward a few years and start with one of the most popular IPs and make a clean game out of it, and it will take off. While MonPoc and AT-43 couldn't quite break that hold on the market, Fantasy Flight's X-Wing could and did. Oddly enough, it didn't extend to their Legion line that is more recent.


With AT-43 you can have the right game at the wrong time. Maybe releasing a few months earlier or a year later could have changed it's fate but I've never heard anyone really talk about it being a bad game. Which says something about it.

Star Wars games are hard, in my opinion, as there's not really a lot to the license for a war game. 2 factions in each of the different eras with a lot of design similarities. It gets boring and it's hard to add in non-movie stuff as it's never at that scale. X-wing was, relatively, a cheap buy in at first with a lot model count and a clear nitch to fill and lightning struck. A lot of time what makes a game go gang buster is pure luck or the perfect conditions that no company has any control over.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/12 20:21:22


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Overread wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Monkeysloth wrote:
One line does not make a player base toxic. Nor does it keep thousands of people playing.
I am sorry to say; you've got a real rude awakening on the horizon


Are you suggesting that the way to restore Warmachine is simply to release the MK3 rules with the original Page 5 from MK1 restored?
Certainly not, I'm actually baffled to how you drew that conclusion from what I said so I am guessing I communicated poorly.

What I meant to say is that huge numbers of people can and will base their attitudes towards an entire game/subject based entirely on a single sentence. And we do it all the time. I was referring to the rude awakening that people are so, so much dumber than he seems to believe.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Monkeysloth wrote:

That's a very interesting. I was big into clix at the time and it was really bouncing back and forth between dead and alive and volitile prices were not something I was considering as generally one of the reasons for plastic was stable pricing, unlike metal which swings a lot. Maybe there was just too much demand for the number of factories that could do the work? As prepainted were really popular back then.


Clix is an interesting one. It technically died for about a year in 2008-09 before NECA bought it from Topps. I'm sure Iron Man had something to do with that.

As I heard, there were a bunch of factors. This was the 2008 economic crisis and budgets were tight. The price of oil spiked, which upped the cost of the plastic a bit but really upped shipping costs more. This was also China's economic boom and the cheap labor painting the things was far less cheap. I think the price hike was a total for the whole process and not the whole thing. I suspect it had a lot to do with cutting the molds though, as existing models seemed to get repurposed easily enough. That Ravenloft board game was totally about repurposing the D&D sculpts in a format that wasn't actually prepainted.

The prepaint industry itself is a pretty interesting look into economy of scale. It basically doesn't work at anything short of being sold at a major retailer like WalMart or in a pinch, Toys R Us. Thousands of stores buying crates of product before its even produced is the only way to justify the risk. That's a big part of the blind purchase packaging. One SKU per set is something the big box stores will actually bother with and you don't have to worry about an unpopular SKU sitting unsold and tanking the whole line. Prior to Kickstarter, it was really the only way to afford plastics in general, but prepaints are a tier above that.

It's worth noting that X-Wing often gets cited as the exception, and that mostly comes down to the kind of models they're painting. Beyond being a huge mass market appeal, the models don't have much in the way of manual labor. A lot of their paint jobs can be done by machines and a LOT of them are mostly just a wash. That's why despite being wildly successful (but not QUITE making it to big box) X-WIng's success didn't translate into prepaints for Legion or Imperial Assault. The cost of pre-paints like that are another level.
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






If I remember correctly I heard x wing will have stencils made for their models to make the pre paint easy

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

I want to suggest a different take on the Page 5 thing: It is a promise by PP to make a balanced game.

I think the context of other popular games is really important here. The two biggest game types at stores around here at least were 40k/WHFB and M:TG/Pokemon. The GW games were rather imbalanced, and very specifically avoided combinations. There was a strong sense that certain armies and builds were just crazy over powered, some armies hadn't seen a codex in a core rules edition or two, and GW was pretty open about not caring about balance. This grew into the "Forging a narrative" stance that was much mocked. About the only thing GW did to try and avoid too much brokenness was to specify within codices that certain rules or units didn't work together, to try and avoid synergies. What little there was often was decried as beardy or cheesy.

On the other hand, there were other fingers. Also, card games that were built specifically around building neat combos and synergies. Tournaments were common and popular, and the producing companies did work on balance, restricting or even banning cards after a release, limiting the pool of cards per season, etc. Being as clever as possible and getting the most out of your cards and hand was part and parcel of the game. Really counter intuitive or strange decks that didn't meet the fluff at all were considered better, or at least not looked down upon. Plus, unlike GW, the rules were rather tight and so knowledge of how the system works can give an edge to a player, both in deck building and playing in game. Benefitting from a very keen understanding of GW's rules generally got you called a rules lawyer.

Here comes PP, and in some sense said "We can make a minis game with the rigor of a competitive card game." They put in Pg 5 to essentially say:

This game is balanced and the rules are complete and consistent. The most over the top clever combo will have a foil, you just have to find it. We promise we did our part, so get to work and get good so you can do yours.

That was a huge departure from GW's style of "We are a miniatures company, not a rules company" demanding that players just deal with the problems of the game.

Now, I will admit, it makes for a game that does start to drift towards work when really playing. That isn't a downside for some people. I really enjoy a worthy problem to solve, and really love solving it. My wife, on the other hand, describes basically all my hobbies and pass times as being too much work to be fun. Different strokes. That said, I have had some really fun and social games that were also got really intense, so I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.


Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block



Canada

As soon as they moved from metal to cheap Chinese PVC I was done. It was Finecast all over again. Most of the new stuff is some awful resin/metal hybrid, and the bad plastic is still there.

I don't think the MTG-style business model works for expensive miniatures anyway. The bubble was going to burst sooner or later.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/13 14:23:29


 
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





marxlives wrote:
 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I recently tried to rejoin Warmahordes with my Trollbloods, because god damn it the MOUNTAIN KING (caps needed) is one of my fave models of all time.

I got up to date with the rules, played at 50 pts aaaand... wow I forgot how much I hated Caster Kill insta losses and how themes basically made my collection from mk2 split up and unable to fit neatly in any with the annoying "free models" which I've hated in any game system ever.

I'd love to play more of it, but the game needs a retool from the ground up, and Im nearly convinced PP doesn't have it in them. They've pretty much been cut off from most local hobby stores who refuse to even try and order in PP products



As a hobbiest I like the themes. Keeps the aethetic cohesive like we see with 40k factions and mini-factions. And Warmachine without caster kill as one of the win conditions. Why even play? Sounds like every other game on the market.


I think themes could of been a good option, but they're basically mandatory as the benefits you get from in theme heavily outweigh not being in theme. It also naturally causes heavy skew which on a local level if your opponent cant deal with it, game may as well be over a lot of the time. And in casual we dont lug around 2 different lists like in tournaments.

And Caster Kill is unique to WHM but its just a preference. I'd much prefer if the game continued after caster kill since you can try to win on scenario points and accept your warjacks/beasts are now out of commision and your opponent still has their caster to wreck face. Again this is just my thoughts on the game, I'd find it much more enjoyable if that was addressed. Locally some players like the models but the only actual players left are tournament players, us casual people have either faced with dilemma of buy loads more to make a theme (seriously, I loved my trollkin sluggers covering fire my fennblades :( ) or play themeless and what feels like a big handicap.

I wish PP all the success, Mk2 was a TONNE of fun and had so much love in my community and I am genuinely sad Mk3 killed all hype, CID was a pain in the arse to follow and every major decision led local players to bleed and sell their armies, leaving roughly 10-15% of the players left.
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






I always felt caster kill should be additional points and not auto win, still gives a leg up to the person who killed the caster, but not super big.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Caster kill mostly serves to end the game when its over rather than force people to play to a forgone conclusion. Honestly, I find the game dreadfully dull without a caster and really wouldn't be all that excited to keep playing.

That said, I think it works better when caster kill demands a certain degree of fighting through the army first. I'd be very happy to see casters made more resilient to long range attacks in general.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

I rather liked caster kill as a mechanic, as it really allowed for turn overs and high risk reward gambits. I appreciated another level of possible strategy and concern beyond objectives etc. It definitely does add a lot of mental overhead to keep track of, and it may well have gotten much too easy with some lists, so I can see why people might not like it. Overall, though, I really liked it as a permanent secondary win condition along with scenario. (Playing games without it on occasion was pretty fun too, but only with very unit heavy lists.)


Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in us
Uhlan





 hotsauceman1 wrote:
marxlives wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
For me the problem happened when they gave up Page 5. Things grew under Page 5, they didn't shrink. That happened with PP gave up its punk, in your face, alternative image to follow GW's foot steps. They haven't gotten to the same level of audience pandering as some other companies like WOTC to get the younger woke audience, but not everyone wants to be woke or have your standard vanilla corporate experience with a product.

As a brand you always double down on audience and experience your product provides. You never vanilla-ify it when there are other vanilla options out there and are market dominate. It wasn't like PP was cratering under Page 5 and when they removed it in MK3 they had a rush of consumers who were just waiting for PP to toe the woke line and left after thinking "what is the problematic legacy of Page 5"?

Page 5 gave PP a huge audience with military, small business owners, civilian rebellious types from the hacker-space and others. When Page 5 was removed in Mk3, I remember alot of people from those backgrounds being iffy about the future of PP.

If PP was just going to vanilla-ify their brand and follow the footsteps of GW instead of being innovative, what was the point? PP was the same company that did a CID process when working on Mk2 when the industry didn't even have a term for it. Open play test was a digital term.



Page 5 was the very epitome of cool and in-your-face aggressiveness back in 2003, 18 years ago, when Warmachine Prime first released, because Privateer Press at the time was a nobody company trying to edge into a market that was completely dominated by all things Games Workshop. Both Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy Battle were THE wargames on the market and at a guess, had probably 90% of the customer base. Page 5 was a very tongue in cheek call out attempt to grab the interest of competitive players by being brash and forward about what the game represented. I think it certainly worked on a lot of people.

Have you read the original Page 5 recently? Because I have, and it really, really, really hasn't aged well at all. In fact, today it reads a little like it was written by some edgelord teenager on a livejournal blog trying to intimidate and bully his enemies. And whatever you may think about Page 5, I don't think it is or was a great way to retain modern customers. Just look at any discussion on Warmachine and you'll inevitably find stories about potential new players who get absolutely curb stomped during a demo game due to the Page 5 attitude of the person giving the demo and then never return. I've heard so many complaints about the way that Page 5 seemed to give competitive jerks an excuse to be absolute donkey caves to all of their opponents.

Whatever you may think, it's not about being "woke" as much as it is about today's new players wanting a fun game experience. Frankly I'm glad that Page 5 has gone, because all it did was drag down the game, and even now a lot of people still have bad memories about the experience.


Taking it out in Mk3 and totally leaving behind their indie roots to imitate GW really exploded their player base. Hell, I can't even wander into a random game store without encountering WMH players taking up all the tables!

"A good way to test the popularity is look up an IP for a lore chan, battle report, whatever and see the views and subs for those chans.

Battle report views over last month

40k - 110k - 123k

AoS - 2k - 33k

SWL - 4k-5k

Marvel Crisis Protocol -1k - 2k (big splash on views when 1st drop, recent numbers are low, probably wont support license cost unlike SWL)

Infinity - 1k - 2k

Battletech 100's - 2k

Malifaux - 100's - 2k

Kings of War - 100's - 1k (other Mantic properties did 0 interactions for the month)

Warmachine and Hordes 100s - 1k (other PP properties did 0 interactions for the month)

Lore video views over last month

40k - 100k - 333k

Marvel Crisis Protocol - 100's - 256k (Same as with SWL, IP views is not translating into miniature game interactions)

SWL - 40k - 247k (the gap between people who engage with the lore vs the licensed game is pretty big, makes me wonder if Asmodee can keep releases going)

AoS - 4k - 15k (for non video game content)

Battletech 100's - 9k (shows a healthy relationship between lore and gameplay interactions)

Kings of War - 100's

Malifaux - 100's (lore is picking up albeit, like Warmachine still pretty low but matching with the number of gameplay interactions)

Warmachine and Hordes 10s

Infinity - none for this month, seems like a year ago lore was really taking off with 6k - 7k views. No interactions today over a month is not a good sign.

The writting on the wall is pretty clear. I would be surprised if SWL and MCP remain a thing due to the disparity between IP lore engagement is not translating to hobby miniature sales. Especially with Marvel licensing out to HeroClix and their Deep Cuts line making, well deep cuts. Battletech seems like the King of the Bottom Tier when it comes to owned IP vs licensed and they got their other properities like video games to lean on.


Lol if you think MCP is gonna die anytime soon, its a growing game that is blowing up. people love it. and star wars legion.
Youtube channels are not a good way to guage lol.
One thing to remember, several of the designers behind the game designed alot of warmachine.


"Lol if you think MCP is gonna die anytime soon, its a growing game that is blowing up. people love it. and star wars legion. Youtube channels are not a good way to guage lol."

is the most financially illiterate statement I have read since I read The Communist Manifesto and Kapital.

I provided hard numbers which you can get from the publically traded corps like GW but not from the private companies. So unless you are privy to those financials, interactions are the only non-bias non-ancecotal evidence available. Money is just a representation for the value of the labor that was used to buy back the debt created by the rate of borrowing from whatever the reserve currency is. Today the reserve currency is the USD.

Based on the world economy and the function of reserve currency, online interactions via YouTube and independent creators is an excellent valuation for a product like miniature wargames because it shows, not just the interactions and ad revenue gained by the the business, but also the value generated through 3rd party markets. The video itself is a product of labor and the likes and views represent a collective valuation of that product. The GW space is so profitable that even 3rd parties can spend value and labor to make views that are carry so much value, as determined by the community, that the incomes of those creators either match or exceed the salaries of the company owners of Atomic Games, PP, Wyrd, Corvus Belli.

When it comes to in house licensed product, Everything else pales in comparison to GW. Battletech would be second but a distant second to GW. The evidence is there, the numbers are there, the only thing you have is "well it is hawt in my Pacific Northwest metroplex". It is sad when people swim outside their current into the ocean of Hi/lo estimates, white papers, projects plans, SOW's, mergers&acquisitions, and corporate/client facing products and services. Hotsauceman, you have left your stream and you should swim back because out here life comes at you fast.

Even then their inhouuse digital properities like comics, books, video games keep GW and Catalyst pretty secure. For long term growth I would advise Wyrd, PP, Corvus Belli, and Mantic to expand into those markets. Even via mod space, Spotify/YT audiobooks, and literature produced via Substack would be better than what they have now. Footprint is everything and if Atomic Games, Wyrd, and PP are hoping that they Pacific NW metroplex scene will carry them, especially after 2020 and 2021 reports are showing more and more money is leaving those areas they need to adapt and move fast.

Battletech is smaller but it can survive tough times because their footprint and diversity of products is so immense. Their mini-profits might be small but they swing a heavy profolio. What do Wyrd, PP, Corvus Belli, and Mantic have outside of minis? I feel Corvus Belli will be in a good spot post Co-Vid due to their location. It makes them competitive against international shipping rates and their 3rd party creation and interactions eclipsed Star Wars and Marvel Whatever miniature wargames pre-Covid. The flags indicate the drop off is really just Europe Covid related (is there a post period with a truely global pandemic?).

Atomic Mass is even in a worse situation than Wyrd, PP, Corvus Belli, and Mantic. And the acquisition of the Star Wars Legion license is even worse. For the amount of footprint those IP's already had the hard numbers for interactions and 3rd party content creations should be through the roof. It should be equal or greater than GW's footprint. And it is, for Marvel movie and comics movie trailers, lore videos, Easter eggs, T-shirts, LEGOS, action figures, criticism but not wargames. SW had significant value in the miniature wargae market and Asmodee got all value out of that market. Crisis Whatever doesn't even pair up with Star Wars, another Disney owned property in terms of content creation and interactions.

This is bad for a company who owns no meaningful IP and is licensing a second one. Ya...Star Wars, but did Asmodee, corporate organization filled with smart people hired all over the world, give up on the Star Wars license because Atomic Mass is just so damn good, or is it beause they made the money they needed to make off the IP, Disney was going to charge more for the license on a contract renewal and Asmodee thought we get 15k interactions easily on Descent videos we don't even produce from multiple creators on an IP we own vs I don't know 1k on a clearly overvaluated product based on a legendary IP. Atomic Mass is going to pay for the privelage to produce for a game that Asmodee has squeezed all the value out of.

Unless Atomic Mass has been acquired by Disney, they are paying those licensing fees. This is a common thing in comics too as sales have dipped Disney is looking to outsource their production to 3rd party licensing. The reason why they are doing it with Atomic Mass and are transitioning comics into this is that the venture in itself is not seen as profitable from a corporate position. It is better to have 3rd parties pay for the privelage of the license to make comics and minis when the risk is seen as too high There is no downside for Disney. Take this into account that Heroclix is still a thing. I can find HeroClix Marvel minis at Walmart. They are about a staple as Magic the Gathering and DnD is most game stores. So Disney has Atomic Mass competing with HeroClix for the same audience in the miniature market.

Looking at the numbers, and the overall business strategies and processes being employed by each player in the industry, I don't even know what "some of those guys worked for PP" even means Maybe it means something in the Pacific Northwest Metroplexes and if those guys are going to pay Disney money to cottage industry a region of the US and use regional clout to profit, well who am I stand in the way of making money. I love making money myself and I respect a good hussle more. Business is a blast.

But outside of GW and Battletech, I don't see any long term winners out of the Pacific Northwest. Corvus Belli has potential due to its Eurasian position, and maybe it can pull some moves to get literature produced via Substack, 3rd party content and interactions will drive up, generous licensing moves into manga and video games. I hope PP and Wyrd do the same thing, though for some reason they are doubling down on the whole cottage industrying the Pacific Northwest gig. Very sad. Not just unpunk fo them, so very ungrunge of them.

Atomic Games is doing the same wierd PNW cottage industry hussling too but their stance is more precarious. They have 2 IPs that they don't own and are overvaluated for their market, based on the numbers. In one case Disney has AG fighting a more dominate HeroClix in parallel spaces in an industry that produces low revenue for everyone but GW, on the other SW miniature space has been squeezed dry by Asmodee and they let some fools pay for the privelage of producing a game FFG discarded. And they are paying for the privelage of getting the Disney shaft. Not enough to hurt the cottage industry hussle in the every depopulating PNW, but enough to make it a non global player like GW or Catalyst.

So now for my anecdotal evidence. I live on the Border. I work with people from all 6 continents, either locally, or virtually. No one around here has even heard of Marvel Crisis Whatever but a GW, MTG, and HeroClix tournaments can fill up multiple games stores and swamp parking, sometimes 3 different languages will be spoken in the same building during these tournaments, mostly it is 2. Before Covid, and pretty soon again, people would cross over the Border from Mexico to play. There are no mini cottage industries within 1000 miles of me.

This is what real economic reach looks like. This is what all the other companies in the PNW should be aiming for rather than hussling the region.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
marxlives wrote:
 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I recently tried to rejoin Warmahordes with my Trollbloods, because god damn it the MOUNTAIN KING (caps needed) is one of my fave models of all time.

I got up to date with the rules, played at 50 pts aaaand... wow I forgot how much I hated Caster Kill insta losses and how themes basically made my collection from mk2 split up and unable to fit neatly in any with the annoying "free models" which I've hated in any game system ever.

I'd love to play more of it, but the game needs a retool from the ground up, and Im nearly convinced PP doesn't have it in them. They've pretty much been cut off from most local hobby stores who refuse to even try and order in PP products



As a hobbiest I like the themes. Keeps the aethetic cohesive like we see with 40k factions and mini-factions. And Warmachine without caster kill as one of the win conditions. Why even play? Sounds like every other game on the market.


I like you idea of Caster kill granting points rather than an ending. Have you tried playing a steamroller scenario and keep the 5 more than the other player win condition but add in caster kill = +1 automatic VP per turn? Might be worth a shot.

I think themes could of been a good option, but they're basically mandatory as the benefits you get from in theme heavily outweigh not being in theme. It also naturally causes heavy skew which on a local level if your opponent cant deal with it, game may as well be over a lot of the time. And in casual we dont lug around 2 different lists like in tournaments.

And Caster Kill is unique to WHM but its just a preference. I'd much prefer if the game continued after caster kill since you can try to win on scenario points and accept your warjacks/beasts are now out of commision and your opponent still has their caster to wreck face. Again this is just my thoughts on the game, I'd find it much more enjoyable if that was addressed. Locally some players like the models but the only actual players left are tournament players, us casual people have either faced with dilemma of buy loads more to make a theme (seriously, I loved my trollkin sluggers covering fire my fennblades :( ) or play themeless and what feels like a big handicap.

I wish PP all the success, Mk2 was a TONNE of fun and had so much love in my community and I am genuinely sad Mk3 killed all hype, CID was a pain in the arse to follow and every major decision led local players to bleed and sell their armies, leaving roughly 10-15% of the players left.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:
Caster kill mostly serves to end the game when its over rather than force people to play to a forgone conclusion. Honestly, I find the game dreadfully dull without a caster and really wouldn't be all that excited to keep playing.

That said, I think it works better when caster kill demands a certain degree of fighting through the army first. I'd be very happy to see casters made more resilient to long range attacks in general.


Take a steam roller scenario and play with standard 5 more VPs than the other player but add "Players recieve +1 VP when their opponent's warcaster is permenantly boxed or removed from play, and +1 VP at the beginning of each turn." in addition to the zone, objective, and flag rules. See how it plays out.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/13 19:31:49


 
   
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The Brawlmachine Team Championship Sign Ups are closing in just over two weeks! We've already got a healthy number of teams signed up, but we're no where near our cap and we'd love to have you come play.

What: 3 person team event, one round per week.

When: Registration is closing after May 28, lists due June 11, Games begin July 2.

Where: Wartable.online and the Line of Sight discord (https://discord.gg/a9hAPtH)

How to register: Check out this article which has more details and a registration form for your team! https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/8/brawlmachine-team-championship-registration-and-information
   
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@Marxlives
You do know the AMG is Asmodees right?
Like they are just like FW is to GW, same company.
Asmodees owns the rights to marvel card, board and wargames, same with star wars.
AMG is just their new wargames studio to keep FFG focused on card games.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in ca
Painting Within the Lines






 hotsauceman1 wrote:
@Marxlives
You do know the AMG is Asmodees right?
Like they are just like FW is to GW, same company.
Asmodees owns the rights to marvel card, board and wargames, same with star wars.
AMG is just their new wargames studio to keep FFG focused on card games.


And after losing the Star Wars games, FFG is an empty husk of it's former self.
It truly has been hollowed out by Asmodee, and why Legion was moved to AMG.
Asmodee has gotten their money out of FFG, which is why it's being hollowed out and will soon be sold.
I'd say that was the main reason Legion was pulled from FFG, as AMG has a better handle on marketing to a smaller audience.

While some may disagree and say that MCP is nothing because of the area or whatever. But Asmodee isn't running out of money anytime soon.
Which is why I believe that AMG will be around for a few years yet, and once folks can go to the movies again, that Marvel license will be worth a lot more to them.
The MCU being on hiatus for 2+ years hasn't helped the brand with visibility. But, since CMON just did their largest funded KS ever with Marvel United X-Men, I'd say there is plenty of interest and money to be made from the Marvel properties.
   
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Are they losing just star wars in general or the games with minis?
Because there are card games FFG sells for them right?

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
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 Wehrkind wrote:
I want to suggest a different take on the Page 5 thing: It is a promise by PP to make a balanced game.
That is a very interesting take, thank you for posting it. Not sure I agree, but regardless it would just make it bad for a different reason IMO.
   
Made in us
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Are they losing just star wars in general or the games with minis?
Because there are card games FFG sells for them right?


Just the games with Minis and RPG. FFG still produces the boardgames and card games (assuming there are new ones being worked one).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
@Marxlives
You do know the AMG is Asmodees right?
Like they are just like FW is to GW, same company.
Asmodees owns the rights to marvel card, board and wargames, same with star wars.
AMG is just their new wargames studio to keep FFG focused on card games.


Ya. it's hard to take the rant seriously when such a fundamental fact is wrong. But if we look at the relevant stuff Marxlives is saying (and drop the strange PNW fixation which adds nothing to the discussion) it's just a reality of licensed products that they have a shorter lifespan then successful internally owned IPs but the advantage of them are you don't have to build up a fan base. It took Corvus Belli like 8 years to build up Infinity to the point that people in the hobby actually know the game exists while a licensed game can get the news/name recognition almost instantly. The reasons they don't last long is basically money as the license holder generally demands more each time the license renews (this is well known with Star Wars and why WoTC had to drop it, the fees Lucas Arts wanted after a certain amount of time so high that WoTC would loose money on each sale even when the RPG and minis game were really popular at launch) and you're stuck with the whims of how the license owner is handling the property in terms of keeping it relevant. Also sometimes the licenser just has no problem walking away from a successful partnership just to try something else. We do know, as well, that Disney is really charging a lot for the Marvel IP which is why Knight Models dropped their Marvel stuff. They're getting DC and Harry Potter for less then Marvel alone would have cost them when they went back to renew with Disney. So Atomic Mass has the unfortunate luck of having the two most expensive IPs to license most likely but also very popular ones (with Starwars being in the top 5).

Battletech is an interesting exception to some of these rules as it's the only licensed IP for a wargame that I know of where the licensee also has the rights to develop the fluff more being able to do more then just sell minis as Marxlives says. It also helps that the original creator of Battletech successfully shifted to videogames years ago and licensed his creation for that medium bringing the IP to a much wider market then the original game's popularity never would have managed on it's own and is still making games for it.

I'm just surprised Asmodee is trying a more traditional Tabletop game as I don't think unpainted HIPS model kits are going to hit that crazy flash in the pan that X-Wing got where, as a lot of people that follow the industry think, it got close to or outsold all of GW's games for 2 years . Sure Atomic Mass could build up something over years of work but Asmodee doesn't seam to be the company that cares about long term profits only short term stock value.

Also basing the health of a game off of just one data point, in this case youtube videos, is a very poor proof of argument unless it's pure sales by volume (which we'll never get from 98% of the industry). I play lots of various games and I never watch a single thing on youtube about them just like there's people that watch those videos that never post in forums or Facebook groups. Heck, I know people that play various Table Top Games, and have for like 20 years, that have never once posted online about them or watched a video. Just basing things off of youtube views also is only targeting a younger demo which tend to have less money to spend. So even if a game, not named Warhammer, had lots of views there's no indication those views translate into dollar sales for the product.

This message was edited 15 times. Last update was at 2021/05/14 08:55:50


 
   
Made in us
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Wehrkind wrote:
I want to suggest a different take on the Page 5 thing: It is a promise by PP to make a balanced game.
That is a very interesting take, thank you for posting it. Not sure I agree, but regardless it would just make it bad for a different reason IMO.


Well, don't leave me in suspense. Why so?


Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




It is funny cause youtube vidoes is literally my entire exposure to Battletech. The thing is deader than doornail except or pockets of veteran fans, while Infinity is stocked by just about every LGS in europe that isn't purely GW.
And of course the whole ramble doesn't take into account that CB for example purposefully keeps itself small to keep using spanish govt. tax breaks for small businesses as far as I know.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I'd wager that, like a lot of governments and government based payment systems, the issue might also be that CB can't see how to expand themselves fast and big enough to make up for the loss of the government tax breaks.

I see the same thing in the UK with people on disability allowances. A good many of them want to work longer hours and such, but they can't because doing so would leave them financially worse off when the support payments reduce/cease.

Basically there's a dead zone where you are worse off by improving/expanding. You have to be able to either muscle through that and keep expanding or improving by basically burning through savings whilst investing in expansion; or do it in one super fast movement of expansion so that you basically blaze past the dead zone.


I can well appreciate that CB might not easily see a means for themselves to push past in one go and could run the risk of ending up trying to expand, failing and then getting stuck half way - which inevitably then will mean downsizing to get back under the limits, which could mean customers see the firm drop products and such.

   
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Atlanta, GA

Cronch wrote:
It is funny cause youtube vidoes is literally my entire exposure to Battletech. The thing is deader than doornail except or pockets of veteran fans, while Infinity is stocked by just about every LGS in europe that isn't purely GW.


You could say this same thing about WMH, though. The thing is, it depends entirely on your location and your local gaming scene. BattleTech might be dead in your area, but there's a huge thread in News and Rumors that proves that it's still popular somewhere, and the company currently in charge is doing a ton of work to release updated plastics for the game.
   
Made in us
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 Wehrkind wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Wehrkind wrote:
I want to suggest a different take on the Page 5 thing: It is a promise by PP to make a balanced game.
That is a very interesting take, thank you for posting it. Not sure I agree, but regardless it would just make it bad for a different reason IMO.


Well, don't leave me in suspense. Why so?
Oh there's no hidden meaning; I am referring simply to how they failed to deliver.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Overread wrote:
I'd wager that, like a lot of governments and government based payment systems, the issue might also be that CB can't see how to expand themselves fast and big enough to make up for the loss of the government tax breaks.

I see the same thing in the UK with people on disability allowances. A good many of them want to work longer hours and such, but they can't because doing so would leave them financially worse off when the support payments reduce/cease.

Basically there's a dead zone where you are worse off by improving/expanding. You have to be able to either muscle through that and keep expanding or improving by basically burning through savings whilst investing in expansion; or do it in one super fast movement of expansion so that you basically blaze past the dead zone.


I can well appreciate that CB might not easily see a means for themselves to push past in one go and could run the risk of ending up trying to expand, failing and then getting stuck half way - which inevitably then will mean downsizing to get back under the limits, which could mean customers see the firm drop products and such.


I think I was at the Gencon where Carlos said that and always took it as him misspeaking due to him using the wrong words in English and he's pushed back against that concept when asked in person. But Spain is known to have some of the highest business taxes in the EU so it easily could be they're purposefully growing the company slowly due to the tax increase that goes along with it. I remember when Angel was printing his first book and it sold out in like an hour and he really didn't want to do a second run as he said the taxes alone from printing more might completely negate all the profit made from the first run and the book would need a third run to make money.
   
Made in us
Uhlan





 Monkeysloth wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Are they losing just star wars in general or the games with minis?
Because there are card games FFG sells for them right?


Just the games with Minis and RPG. FFG still produces the boardgames and card games (assuming there are new ones being worked one).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
@Marxlives
You do know the AMG is Asmodees right?
Like they are just like FW is to GW, same company.
Asmodees owns the rights to marvel card, board and wargames, same with star wars.
AMG is just their new wargames studio to keep FFG focused on card games.


Ya. it's hard to take the rant seriously when such a fundamental fact is wrong. But if we look at the relevant stuff Marxlives is saying (and drop the strange PNW fixation which adds nothing to the discussion) it's just a reality of licensed products that they have a shorter lifespan then successful internally owned IPs but the advantage of them are you don't have to build up a fan base. It took Corvus Belli like 8 years to build up Infinity to the point that people in the hobby actually know the game exists while a licensed game can get the news/name recognition almost instantly. The reasons they don't last long is basically money as the license holder generally demands more each time the license renews (this is well known with Star Wars and why WoTC had to drop it, the fees Lucas Arts wanted after a certain amount of time so high that WoTC would loose money on each sale even when the RPG and minis game were really popular at launch) and you're stuck with the whims of how the license owner is handling the property in terms of keeping it relevant. Also sometimes the licenser just has no problem walking away from a successful partnership just to try something else. We do know, as well, that Disney is really charging a lot for the Marvel IP which is why Knight Models dropped their Marvel stuff. They're getting DC and Harry Potter for less then Marvel alone would have cost them when they went back to renew with Disney. So Atomic Mass has the unfortunate luck of having the two most expensive IPs to license most likely but also very popular ones (with Starwars being in the top 5).

Battletech is an interesting exception to some of these rules as it's the only licensed IP for a wargame that I know of where the licensee also has the rights to develop the fluff more being able to do more then just sell minis as Marxlives says. It also helps that the original creator of Battletech successfully shifted to videogames years ago and licensed his creation for that medium bringing the IP to a much wider market then the original game's popularity never would have managed on it's own and is still making games for it.

I'm just surprised Asmodee is trying a more traditional Tabletop game as I don't think unpainted HIPS model kits are going to hit that crazy flash in the pan that X-Wing got where, as a lot of people that follow the industry think, it got close to or outsold all of GW's games for 2 years . Sure Atomic Mass could build up something over years of work but Asmodee doesn't seam to be the company that cares about long term profits only short term stock value.

Also basing the health of a game off of just one data point, in this case youtube videos, is a very poor proof of argument unless it's pure sales by volume (which we'll never get from 98% of the industry). I play lots of various games and I never watch a single thing on youtube about them just like there's people that watch those videos that never post in forums or Facebook groups. Heck, I know people that play various Table Top Games, and have for like 20 years, that have never once posted online about them or watched a video. Just basing things off of youtube views also is only targeting a younger demo which tend to have less money to spend. So even if a game, not named Warhammer, had lots of views there's no indication those views translate into dollar sales for the product.


Unless you got their financials, measurable interactions by customers via YT and other online platforms is the only real data we have. Everything else is just "personal experience". Doesn't measure up to much on a planet of 7.5 billion people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
@Marxlives
You do know the AMG is Asmodees right?
Like they are just like FW is to GW, same company.
Asmodees owns the rights to marvel card, board and wargames, same with star wars.
AMG is just their new wargames studio to keep FFG focused on card games.


You must not really know how spin offs and mergers work. AMG is a sub company of Asmodee like FFG. This allows Asmodee to keep their board game brands intact, and hollow out the SW and Marvel IPs until they spin off AMG without consquence. MCP still suffers from the problem of a interactions for the miniatures games do not match up with the other aspects of the brand.

Unlike Descent, a board game Asmodee could probably get novels written on (if they haven't already), comics, and video games the SW and MCP are not owned by Asmodee. The only place it could go is eventual discontinuation and no support unless Asmodee gets bought by Disney. If you think AMG being held to the whims of 3rd party license rather than their own property is a good thing you are kidding yourself.

So keep your fingers crossed for that. Heck share with all of us if that is the case so we can hit that early buy window.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 14:39:53


 
   
Made in us
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Astonished of Heck

marxlives wrote:
Unlike Descent, a board game Asmodee could probably get novels written on (if they haven't already), comics, and video games the SW and MCP are not owned by Asmodee. The only place it could go is eventual discontinuation and no support unless Asmodee gets bought by Disney. If you think AMG being held to the whims of 3rd party license rather than their own property is a good thing you are kidding yourself.

I think you're a little wrong in that area. So long as Disney develops both the Star Wars and Marvel universes, there is always opportunities to expand. FFG showed the way be bringing back Legends ships such as the Tie Defender (before being reintroduced in Rebels) and the Moldy Crow (from the Dark Forces series). Almost every single hero and villain in the Marvel universe has numerous costume iterations which can be produced and sold before looking at MCU developments. Many also have skill tiers which can be utilized as variants as well, and we haven't even gotten in to the possibilities of the Avengers Initiative that was around for a while. MCP actually has a lot of depth that can be explored even if Disney shuttered both the Marvel comic line and the MCU right now. Star Wars is the only one that truly suffers if they stopped right now.

Still, if your point is that Asmodee cannot develop them independently like Descent, then you are correct, but it's only a limitation if the IP's owner keeps everything stagnant themselves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 16:46:06


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Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
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Bringing this back towards PP, I have heard recently that they may have had a break up with their Chinese manufacturers, and that said manufacturers may even be keeping the molds. Just a rumor, but serious if even partly true.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Bringing this back towards PP, I have heard recently that they may have had a break up with their Chinese manufacturers, and that said manufacturers may even be keeping the molds. Just a rumor, but serious if even partly true.



I thought that was one of the main reasons PP were stuck with some of their bad plastics. If they've actually had a full on break up that could be a short term pain, but a long term gain if it means that they are then going to have to invest into new approaches and no longer be slaved to a manufacturer that was keeping their moulds at ransom

   
 
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