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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Some of you need to get over your victim complex.


That seems like a wholly unuseful comment.
You must be new to the thread...

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ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
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 trexmeyer wrote:
That's a really good point. Nothing needs to appeal to everybody. A target audience, even if indirectly targeted, is fine.

In my experience playing 40K/WHFB the people in my area (99% male) were either incredibly socially awkward, excessively competitive (I fell into this category tbf), or otherwise odd in a detrimental way. You can't have a female friendly environment when 25%+ of the population doesn't know or is incapable of behaving like a human being when around women.


And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

"Ewww, I smell geek!" "Look at the losers!" "Yeah right, four-eyes..." Worse still, "Let me feign interest in you and your hobbies so I can more thoroughly humiliate you in public tomorrow!" When this is your sum total interaction with women, one can get very reluctant to have anything to do with a girl claiming to be interested in your hobby, especially in the formative middle and high school years.

Yes, game clubs should try to be more welcoming. But when your experiences with women and your hobby is them looking to mock you over it, well, past experiences of pain is a great motivator of behavior.

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Whether it's learning math and science or war games, starting at a younger age with an appropriate setting and experience is a key way to help women find their way to it. Middleschool is a great time to target. I taught a series of math, science, and logic classes to middleschool kids and it was amazing what they could do because no one had enculturated them into thinking it was too hard or uncool yet. I find the same goes for gaming. I have an active team for D&D that is about half women of that age (with their parents), and they're having a great time. We're even dabbling in bits of warhammer for mass battles.
   
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Under the couch

 Vulcan wrote:

And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

You've italicized that like it's somehow something that should be expected, which is odd. It's not up to women who just happen to be in your proximity to go out of their way to teach you to be less anti-social, and if you're not giving them a reason to want to spend time with you, that's on you, not them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 03:30:43


 
   
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As we know, men would never mock each other's hobbies so this is a concern women specifically need to be called out on. /s

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 04:08:40


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ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
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 insaniak wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

You've italicized that like it's somehow something that should be expected, which is odd. It's not up to women who just happen to be in your proximity to go out of their way to teach you to be less anti-social, and if you're not giving them a reason to want to spend time with you, that's on you, not them.

I agree it's not up to women, but then on the flip side I don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves to make wargaming more accommodating to women.

Whilst it's great to see more women in wargaming (and the numbers around this area have certainly grown, from "zero" when I started in the 90's to "a few" now) I don't think the answer is to tell an entire community they're enjoying themselves incorrectly and need to change to become more appealing to a different group.

Assuming of course they aren't actively discriminating and we're just talking about general social awkwardness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As we know, men would never mock each other's hobbies so this is a concern women specifically need to be called out on. /s


I'm not placing blame on girls because obviously those years can be tough regardless of whether you're a girl a boy, but it's just the way it is that it can be more hurtful for a boy to be mocked by a girl than by other boys. Kids can be arseholes, I was fortunate that I never really got mocked for my hobbies in spite of them being mostly nerdy hobbies... other than by my siblings who had little problem telling me I was a weirdo

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 04:44:21


 
   
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I agree it's not up to women, but then on the flip side I don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves to make wargaming more accommodating to women.

If you want to see more women in the hobby, and your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby... the maths here is fairly simple.

 
   
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 insaniak wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I agree it's not up to women, but then on the flip side I don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves to make wargaming more accommodating to women.

If you want to see more women in the hobby, and your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby... the maths here is fairly simple.


Oh I'm so sorry that my personal behaviour is what's keeping women out of your local gaming clubs

/sarcasm (actually if you're in Melbourne maybe that's true )

Socially awkward kids be socially awkward, I don't see how flinging blame is helpful. In fact I think that's half the issue, instead of saying "there's maybe a problem, what can we do to identify the root causes and improve the situation", we get "YOU'RE the problem, fix yourself!!". Of course people are going to get defensive, you're not helping.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 05:06:02


 
   
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Oh I'm so sorry that my personal behaviour is what's keeping women out of your local gaming clubs

That's not what I said.


Socially awkward kids be socially awkward, I don't see how flinging blame is helpful.

It's not. Which is why I responded to the post flinging blame at women for not rushing to the aid of socially awkward kids. You appear to have read something into my comments that wasn't there.

 
   
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 insaniak wrote:
It's not. Which is why I responded to the post flinging blame at women for not rushing to the aid of socially awkward kids. You appear to have read something into my comments that wasn't there.
And I responded by saying I agree but I also don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves (and I also never said you said that, it was a general comment in response to your comment rather than an accusatory statement).

But then you said "your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby." Which in my book sure sounds like flinging blame.

What a fun game we're playing, recounting what each of us said less than 6 posts earlier


 insaniak wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Oh I'm so sorry that my personal behaviour is what's keeping women out of your local gaming clubs

That's not what I said.

You literally said...
 insaniak wrote:
your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby.


Of course I took the artistic license of extending that to your own local gaming club, but I would have figured the obvious implied and outright labelled sarcasm entitled me to a little hyperbole.

But yay! The game of dissecting what we just said even though it's plainly there for all to read continues!


EDIT: Sorry, made a couple of edits because I made a hash of the quotes, my apologies.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 06:03:35


 
   
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 insaniak wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Socially awkward kids be socially awkward, I don't see how flinging blame is helpful.

It's not. Which is why I responded to the post flinging blame at women for not rushing to the aid of socially awkward kids. You appear to have read something into my comments that wasn't there.


You responded by ignoring the context he provided in the next paragraph where, I can only assume from either his or anecdotal experience those women; girls really, were deliberately cruel and further enforced the social isolation of some people.

Depending on how long it’s been since you’ve been a kid; or had kids: you may have forgotten that children and adolescents are especially cruel to their peers. And we now know that a significant percentage of male children are on the spectrum, and that the spectrum presents itself with native social awkwardness in many cases. I’ll agree with you that it’s not those women’s responsibility to inculcate positive experiences; but they do get to own the damage they do through malice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 06:00:04


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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But then you said "your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby." ...

No, I didn't. I said that if your behaviour is the problem, then changing your behaviour is the obvious solution.

That's not flinging blame. That's pointing out that if people don't want to be around you because they don't like the smell of rotting fish, maybe taking the rotting fish out of your pocket might be sensible.

You literally said...
 insaniak wrote:
your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby.

The statement 'If you want something, you should do the thing' and the statement 'If I want something, you should do the thing' are not, in fact, the same statement.

 
   
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Trying to take this away from a more negative route. I don't fully know why men and women choose to do what they like. However I think it's more important they like what it is they're doing and maybe it's not up to us to decide for them.

I used to try to get friends into warhammer and often if they weren't interested within like 30 secs to a minute they just didn't care. Usually it was a mixture of time, money or effort on their part that they just weren't able or willing to give. Oddly usually the people i knew I didn't try to get interested in warhammer were the ones that got into it.

To be completely fair there's a difference here between them being interested in warhammer and them being interested in the tabletop. I'm referring the the tabletop in the previous paragraph. People seem more willing to get into total war warhammer, dawn of war or vermintide 2 than tabletop of any variety.

I think this has to do with how invested you have to be in it and the work and money involved. I try to tell people usually to get into the video games first if they're curious and usually that's a decent entry point.

All this said I have trouble wanting to get people into warhammer with my own hang-ups with the current game. Im just not really having fun anymore in the game.

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This thread has done more to show me how pervasive the problem is than the article ever could have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Oh I'm so sorry that my personal behaviour is what's keeping women out of your local gaming clubs

That's not what I said.

You literally said...
 insaniak wrote:
your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby.
No, he did not say that. What he said was a statement that meant something completely different. You took half of his sentence out of context to lie about what he said. But fear not; I will state that if you lie like that in your gaming club then yeah, your behavior is probably keeping people away (regardless of gender).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 09:56:57


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ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
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People are drawn to what they like, and what they like the look of.

Wargaming circles around here are all polite and friendly to women wargamers, so the community is not a problem.

Army design may also play a part. It is possible that more women in general would be interested if they saw more designs like Wood Elves and Sisters of Battle.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 11:09:56


   
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

You've italicized that like it's somehow something that should be expected, which is odd. It's not up to women who just happen to be in your proximity to go out of their way to teach you to be less anti-social, and if you're not giving them a reason to want to spend time with you, that's on you, not them.

I agree it's not up to women, but then on the flip side I don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves to make wargaming more accommodating to women.


Absolutely it is.
Learning how to deal with other human beings in a socially acceptable fashion is the baseline required for anyone to participate in society.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 14:12:15


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 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
People are drawn to what they like, and what they like the look of.

Wargaming circles around here are all polite and friendly to women wargamers, so the community is not a problem.

Army design may also play a part. It is possible that more women in general would be interested if they saw more designs like Wood Elves and Sisters of Battle.


Hey Women did like Gears 1 and there is barely a woman in the cast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I can't believe we have looped around to victim blaming of bullied nerds. XD

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 14:39:25


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 insaniak wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

You've italicized that like it's somehow something that should be expected, which is odd. It's not up to women who just happen to be in your proximity to go out of their way to teach you to be less anti-social, and if you're not giving them a reason to want to spend time with you, that's on you, not them.


Ah... you weren't a geek in middle or high school, were you. Never one of the social outcasts the girls would rather die than be seen with, yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As we know, men would never mock each other's hobbies so this is a concern women specifically need to be called out on. /s


True, but since this is about women wanting into game groups...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I agree it's not up to women, but then on the flip side I don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves to make wargaming more accommodating to women.

If you want to see more women in the hobby, and your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby... the maths here is fairly simple.


So the answer is to kick out all the socially awkward people in the hobby? I mean, yeah, the ideal would be to magically make all the socially awkward people suave and sophisticated... but it's hardly realistic...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 16:15:29


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SoCal

I was an outcast in middle and high school. I was laughed at by women. I still think you come across really badly in this thread.


I agree with Ninthmuskateer about this thread being a great illustration of the toxicity in the hobby.

   
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 insaniak wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Oh I'm so sorry that my personal behaviour is what's keeping women out of your local gaming clubs

That's not what I said.


Socially awkward kids be socially awkward, I don't see how flinging blame is helpful.

It's not. Which is why I responded to the post flinging blame at women for not rushing to the aid of socially awkward kids. You appear to have read something into my comments that wasn't there.


And you seem to have read something into my comment that wasn't there either. I wasn't saying gamer girls are to blame for any of this. Indeed, I expect they get picked on even MORE mercilessly than the geek guys by the popular girls. But demanding that geek guys magically become suave and sophisticated around girls... that's not a realistic solution.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

You've italicized that like it's somehow something that should be expected, which is odd. It's not up to women who just happen to be in your proximity to go out of their way to teach you to be less anti-social, and if you're not giving them a reason to want to spend time with you, that's on you, not them.

I agree it's not up to women, but then on the flip side I don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves to make wargaming more accommodating to women.


Absolutely it is.
Learning how to deal with other human beings in a socially acceptable fashion is the baseline required for anyone to participate in society.


And that's why some of them get really hostile to strangers. They HAVE their own little society where they all get along just fine and who are you to intrude in and tell them they have to be accepting of others who have constantly and cruelly rejected THEM?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I was an outcast in middle and high school. I was laughed at by women. I still think you come across really badly in this thread.


I agree with Ninthmuskateer about this thread being a great illustration of the toxicity in the hobby.


And nothing need be said about the toxicity of those rejecting the hobby and those interested in it?

Well. If that's the takeaway, then I think we're done here.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 16:29:47


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No one is asking geeks to become suave. Simply that if the socially awkward want to be accommodated by others they need to make an effort to accommodate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I was an outcast in middle and high school. I was laughed at by women. I still think you come across really badly in this thread.

I agree with Ninthmuskateer about this thread being a great illustration of the toxicity in the hobby.
Yeah. I have spent an untold amount of effort in learning how to behave in a fashion to not make others uncomfortable, it boils my blood when people act as if it is everyone else's job to adapt to their individual needs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 17:07:30


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ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No one is asking geeks to become suave. Simply that if the socially awkward want to be accommodated by others they need to make an effort to accommodate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I was an outcast in middle and high school. I was laughed at by women. I still think you come across really badly in this thread.

I agree with Ninthmuskateer about this thread being a great illustration of the toxicity in the hobby.
Yeah. I have spent an untold amount of effort in learning how to behave in a fashion to not make others uncomfortable, it boils my blood when people act as if it is everyone else's job to adapt to their individual needs.


Well that's weird because I'm supposed to understand what every single person's personal preferences are on your side and not to make anybody uncomfortable as an autistic man no less. I would expect a more give and take attitude but I guess not. You totally expect people to understand a person's situation but if it was a socially awkward autistic person not knowing how to socially act towards others it's somehow the autistic persons fault. May as well tell a man in a wheelchair to go up the steps because everybody else is expected to.

My issue isnt people that are reasonable or understand everybody has some hang ups they gotta fix. My issue is that shrill and shrieking individual that forces everybody else to ACT NORMAL! Dude it's a game with awkward nerds. There's a good chance even the girls suck with social interaction. This isn't some elite ballroom between political elites. It's a nerdy hobby. I'm not saying they shouldn't improve but you're asking a lot to quickly and if they don't follow your demands you want them to leave. They deserve to be there too just like you and if the hobby is becoming this fractured maybe the game itself will suffer greatly soon.

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Indeed, I expect they get picked on even MORE mercilessly than the geek guys by the popular girls.

The strange american HS clique system is not a universal experience.

To be completely fair there's a difference here between them being interested in warhammer and them being interested in the tabletop. I'm referring the the tabletop in the previous paragraph. People seem more willing to get into total war warhammer, dawn of war or vermintide 2 than tabletop of any variety.

That is a good point, Warhammer is a very bad introduction to the hobby because at it's basis, it's a poor experience.
   
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Cronch wrote:
Indeed, I expect they get picked on even MORE mercilessly than the geek guys by the popular girls.

The strange american HS clique system is not a universal experience.


WAIT you mean that exists outside of hollywood films?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 19:02:37


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 Overread wrote:
Cronch wrote:
Indeed, I expect they get picked on even MORE mercilessly than the geek guys by the popular girls.

The strange american HS clique system is not a universal experience.


WAIT you mean that exists outside of hollywood films?


Yes but it depends. It's not just the popular girls. Every time when my local gw went to lunch at the sandwich shop next door a couple of the girls working there used to joke "here comes the 'nerd herd'....". I only found out when a gw customer that joked with them pointed it out. Granted a couple of the women there were sorta attracted to me but people of all groups can suck.

As far as when I was in high school girls got competitive with dudes they liked and one insulted me (hygiene and such) just because I liked both her and somebody that was dating a guy she used to date and she probably felt that dude was stolen from her. Same girl also had another girl pass back papers but before she passed it back to her wrote 'hoe bag' on the paper and she read it and laughed.

Girls can be cruel but I'd say they're worse to each other or at least out in public.

This isn't even getting to my Karen sisters which treat their submissive husbands poorly.

I'm not saying all girls are bad but if you think they're all angels you're sorely mistaken. Seriously I've had enough bad experiences to know that's untrue.

They can get really jealous when relationships get involved to. Not all but it is significant.

------

Actually tabletop wargaming is just overall harder to get into. Hundreds if not thousands of dollars, time and painting make it unattractive vs playing vermintide with a bunch of friends or total war warhammer with a solid computer. This isn't just about women but men too.

I realize people would probably get upset at stereotypes for some reason but if you want to interest women maybe give stuff women tend to like? Maybe more painting instruction for tabletop, maybe commission more yaoi art of primarchs, maybe throw out stories that aren't just grim dark and war torn and hopeless. I suppose emo goth girls might still like those last ones but i think the issue is giving women what theyd want.

Thing is though if you change warhammer that much to get women involved the setting would change dramatically for everybody else. Fan art and encouraging painting is one thing. A flamboyant JoJos bizarre adventure style sanguinius as a model in the tabletop might change things too much.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 19:28:06


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 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Yes but it depends. It's not just the popular girls. Every time when my local gw went to lunch at the sandwich shop next door a couple of the girls working there used to joke "here comes the 'nerd herd'....". I only found out when a gw customer that joked with them pointed it out. Granted a couple of the women there were sorta attracted to me but people of all groups can suck.

As far as when I was in high school girls got competitive with dudes they liked and one insulted me (hygiene and such) just because I liked both her and somebody that was dating a guy she used to date and she probably felt that dude was stolen from her. Same girl also had another girl pass back papers but before she passed it back to her wrote 'hoe bag' on the paper and she read it and laughed.




Not being funny, perhaps you've expressed yourself poorly, or gone for brevity and not included some key info.

But, is that it?

I was, I guess, relatively popular, and went through worse than that. For a kid in 80s/90s public education in the UK, that just sounds like a Tuesday.


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 Azreal13 wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Yes but it depends. It's not just the popular girls. Every time when my local gw went to lunch at the sandwich shop next door a couple of the girls working there used to joke "here comes the 'nerd herd'....". I only found out when a gw customer that joked with them pointed it out. Granted a couple of the women there were sorta attracted to me but people of all groups can suck.

As far as when I was in high school girls got competitive with dudes they liked and one insulted me (hygiene and such) just because I liked both her and somebody that was dating a guy she used to date and she probably felt that dude was stolen from her. Same girl also had another girl pass back papers but before she passed it back to her wrote 'hoe bag' on the paper and she read it and laughed.




Not being funny, perhaps you've expressed yourself poorly, or gone for brevity and not included some key info.

But, is that it?

I was, I guess, relatively popular, and went through worse than that. For a kid in 80s/90s public education in the UK, that just sounds like a Tuesday.



I mean I was also relentlessly bullied (most of it physical) until high school including being I think knocked out for throwing a book back at one of the two bullies throwing books at me without provocation and in another case given 2 black eyes for merely tapping a dudes shoe with mine. Those werent girls though.

I've spoken with some women that had women give them a rough time. Usually they say other girls backstab a lot but I find the girls that say this tend to be pretty or into male dominated hobbies.

As far as the karen sisters I have one of them was stressed out and angry and insulted people for almost 8 hours straight. Not to mention after all of this she said what happened to her was abuse even though she verbally abuses all her family including me who is autistic and her husband which is slowly losing it from Alzheimer's/dementia and she's getting seriously mad at him for his dementia while he suffers pretty much blaming him for his loss of mental and physical ability.

In the case of my Karen sisters I never want to deal with a Karen for long esp. Where they're in control of the situation and I definitely never want to date one. Sadly I kinda have to deal with them because I can't seem to get away.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 20:07:52


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Like I said, weird to go into victim blaming.

"Don't Feed the Troll"

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 insaniak wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

You've italicized that like it's somehow something that should be expected, which is odd. It's not up to women who just happen to be in your proximity to go out of their way to teach you to be less anti-social, and if you're not giving them a reason to want to spend time with you, that's on you, not them.


Reminds me of my 'helpful' lady housemates, when asked "if i'm going too strange you'd tell me right ?", to which "where's the fun in that..." was the reply

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I realize people would probably get upset at stereotypes for some reason but if you want to interest women maybe give stuff women tend to like?
Back at school many many years ago there was a chess/gaming night set up by the headmaster that at various times ran boardgames, tabletop games, and rpgs.

We could have been sacrificing goats or dancing to swan lake for all the entire female population of the school knew, in five years not a single girl so much as looked through the door. There is a lot of cultural inertia and social pressure to work through that isn't necessarily related to anything the game actually has or does.

Also the girls I know like things like spiders and 80s computing, and those that played rpgs (including one enthusiastic Dark Heresy player) still weren't interested in a round of 40k with the exactly the same players, in exactly the same setting, even with borrowed models. Just personal preferences.



 flamingkillamajig wrote:
A flamboyant JoJos bizarre adventure style sanguinius as a model in the tabletop might change things too much.
You can already get resin pillar men custodes. They are fabulous.

   
 
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