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Manchu wrote: Wait are you talking about Grant Morrison? Batman Inc was the best Batman title going IMO.
The others are that bad? I have only seen the last few issues so maybe it started out good, but the art is rather meh and I hate what they did to Talia.
On The Killing Joke: I think it deserves the praise. There's actually some pay off so it's not just a snuff piece like Avengers Arena, and from what I've heard the treatment of Barbara as Oracle was great. I wish the New 52 had left it as canon, even if she left the role once she'd recovered from her injuries.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
Treating a crippled person respectfully does not justify her injury. Indeed, this injury in particular is a manifestation of injustice. What Yale and Ostrander tried to do was transform that injustice into defiance of the mindset that allowed it; they wanted to preserve the injury so that it could be continuously challenged. I submit that, regardless of noble intent, this approach itself was tainted by the very same mindset. The handicap was redeemed rather than the character. Barabara was cast as the star of inclusiveness in a rather obligatory constellation of politically correct values, outshone by the true pantheon of comic book heroism. In a word, she became the token handicapped person.
It's not that Oracle was a one-dimensional character even if in essence she became a personified Bat-Computer -- despite faintly contradictory praise of her as "independent" yet also a "team leader." And in the face of voluminous praise directed at Gail Simone, there is something troubling about her handling of Barbara's morality. Why does she alone in the Bat Family (or at least its heroic branch) accept that lethal force is sometimes necessary and even justified? That and other aspects of Simone's treatment strike me as over-compensation. This isn't empowerment but imprisonment. Batman incessantly faces far worse and yet never bends -- even when he was literally broken. I have heard many people call Oracle strong; she seemed to me more accurately hard and brittle.
Simone herself eventually came around to opposing the problematic motivations and downright silliness of keeping Barbara handicapped, very nearly admitting that the reasoning was entirely metatextual. For the New 52, she struck something of a compromise: Barbara was indeed shot by the Joker and paralyzed for a significant period of time but ultimately physically recovered. Although I'm thrilled to see Barbara finally allowed the same privilege as her male counterparts in terms of bouncing back, the elements of PTSD and survivor guilt Simone has emphasized continue to trouble me. At least she's not still confined to the chair by misguided authorial and editorial do-gooders, I suppose.
But hearing Morrison talk about TKJ brings all of this into even sharper focus. I believe Morrison is right. The story is much, much better if Batman kills the Joker. I believe Moore did indeed write that but no editor at DC then, now, or ever would permit such a thing. Still, it's on the page as a clear possibility and, more importantly, the most satisfactory artistic possibility. Contrast this, which has been invisible to so many of us for a quarter century, to the misogynistic and exploitative abuse of Barbara's character. It was neither narratively necessary nor even artistically warranted. And yet that -- rather than what Morrison suggests is obvious in the very title of the book -- is what has been and still remains canonical.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/17 08:04:44
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Just got around to reading TKJ, and I just don't see it-there's no foot, body, anything in the panel-Batman likely grabbed him and shot up into the air. I was more shocked with them getting away with showing Barbara's nips in one of the photos the Joker showed to Gordon, as well as her bare ass: this isn't Tarot, most comic books don't show that kind of gratuity in normal issues. And most butts are usually shown in shadow, to keep from really being "nudity". This one pulls no punches, and I'm surprised DC allowed it. And, after reading this, I thought this WAS the believed origin of the Joker: wife dies, dons Red Hood outfit, jumps/falls escaping Batman, insert insanity/white face. I'm not just saying that because I love B:UTRH as a movie, but I've gone on a couple "wiki" pages for the Joker and most say that's his believed origin. I guess I'm just not reading as much into it as some others are.
Plus, Batman only has one hand on the Joker-I don't think he's gonna snap his neck with a single hand. I suppose it's possible, but...not likely. Still fully believe he just carried him off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/17 13:55:35
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
Just picked up the complete America and Origins stories for Judge Dredd, both as inspiration for a table I'm making for the board game, and because I haven't bought any comics in months. Somehow I've managed to not read either, despite America at least being regarded as the best story in the series (well according to my friends that is). I'll probably get through them over the weekend, but thoughts on them, or if there's other stories that stand out more?
They really need to cull the herds of the super teams, or at least
commit to rotating them so that you don't have panel after panel
of "Mutant Whoever" stepping out simply to demonstrate his
power or re-establish herself in the continuity.
DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++ Get your own Dakka Code!
"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
They really need to cull the herds of the super teams, or at least
commit to rotating them so that you don't have panel after panel
of "Mutant Whoever" stepping out simply to demonstrate his
power or re-establish herself in the continuity.
Do you mean AvX as the series, or the tie-ins? The main series was a crossover, so of course it's going to involve characters from loads of different teams...
I also hate the characterization of Cyclops as a reactionary douchebag.
DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++ Get your own Dakka Code!
"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Ya, there's more Avengers than X-Men nowadays. One of the causes of AvX is that there weren't that many mutants left in the world.
Fixed that for you Nw mutants are popping up left right and centre in Uncanny X-Men, due to the ending of AvX
And there are currently 22? Avengers, whereas "X-Men" only covers the five man female only team
malfred wrote: I just hate that both teams are that big.
I also hate the characterization of Cyclops as a reactionary douchebag.
Avengers have gotten a little out of control. I think there's like 5 teams or something. There's only like 113 mutants left on the whole planet or something like that. There's Cyclops rogue state of Utopia (which is basically Alcatraz) and then Wolverine rememered he hates Cyclops and restarted Xavier's school in New York.
Maybe because I was following many Avengers titles it didn't seem that bad to me.
I don't know about reactionary douchebag but ya Cyclops is kind of a douchebag. I don't know where you are in the story but a lot happens. There will be ups and downs for him.
I'm back on the Cyclops band wagon for now. Recently in a issue of Uncanny X-men he gave a good speech explaining to Captain America that he's not the jerkface but in fact "You Captain America are the jerkface!" (or something to that effect). However, he is completely different from when he believes in Xavier's dream and I don't know if he'll ever be able to go back.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Ya, there's more Avengers than X-Men nowadays. One of the causes of AvX is that there weren't that many mutants left in the world.
Fixed that for you Nw mutants are popping up left right and centre in Uncanny X-Men, due to the ending of AvX
And there are currently 22? Avengers, whereas "X-Men" only covers the five man female only team
Yes, I guess I was refering to the part of the timeline Malfred is reading right now.
I'm pretty sure Cyclops considers his team the only X-men team. What's up with the female team?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/23 19:53:16
It's not officially a team, just a few female members of staff (plus jubilee) that happened to be the only people there when gak went down.
Also currently there are 8 Avengers comics; Avengers, Secret Avengers, Uncanny Avengers (avengers unity squad), New Avengers (Illuminati), Avengers Assemble, Young Avengers, Avengers A.I, Avengers Arena, and there's soon to be Mighty Avengers as well.
Technically that only comes out to 4 "official" teams though, being Avengers, Secret Avengers, Uncanny Avengers, and Young Avengers.
There are a lot of Avengers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
malfred wrote: I just hate that both teams are that big.
I also hate the characterization of Cyclops as a reactionary douchebag.
It's not that both teams are that big, there's just more than one team, but its simpler to say "Avengers V X-Men" than "Avengers and Secret Avengers and New Avengers and Young Avengers and Avengers Assemble V X-Men and X-Men Legacy and Uncanny X-Men and Amazing X-Men and Astonishing X-Men"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 21:14:46
Goliath wrote: It's not officially a team, just a few female members of staff (plus jubilee) that happened to be the only people there when gak went down.
Kind of like the Avengers were I guess...Let's just call 'em another Avengers just to be on the safe side.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 21:53:21
Maybe they should have called the Avengers Xmen War.
There's just so much going on and none of it seems to really
matter since they have to jump around so much. You get a
few story arcs and lots of noise.
DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++ Get your own Dakka Code!
"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
That's the problem with mega events. The main title always seems like it's missing some of the story...because it is. That being said AvX stood by itself better than most of the previous Marvel mega events.
Finished reading the Judge Dredd stories I bought. America was a refreshingly mature take on the whole Justice Department, whereas Origins reinforced just how fascistic it was. The closing lines in Origins from Fargo were rather nice too as they rather mirrored what America had said. I've not been keeping up with the series of late, but Origins certainly seems to be setting up for the end game or so it would seem. Ie where previous big stories have involved Mega City one being faced with extermination, but lasting it out, Origins instead seemed to be hinting at political change, or at least a moral one within the Justice system.
Having read them however, I'm at two minds about the Judges though. Other stories paint them as the good guys, whereas these made the point that they're complete fascists, they're only the good guys because the alternative would be worse. Hopefully Wagner will leave the series ending on a positive note, but considering Strontium Dog is set in the same universe, it wouldn't last. =/
Oh, and I did kind of feel a little bad at the end of Origins when Fargo asked after Rico. Pity that there was no redemption arc for him. What happened to the other four clones of Fargo though (I've not read the series in a while, not have I been keeping up on any progs from this decade...)?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/25 19:04:58
malfred wrote: Maybe they should have called the Avengers Xmen War.
There's just so much going on and none of it seems to really
matter since they have to jump around so much. You get a
few story arcs and lots of noise.
In-Universe I believe that is what they refer to it as.
Anyone reading Infinity? It's the first major crossover I've been around for, so I'm trying to get it and the major tie-ins (new avengers and avengers), and so far I'm finding it really really good.
Loving New 52 Batman. It doesn't feel like a reset, it feels like it picked up where the original ended. The storyline is great too. I'll be picking up all the graphic novels as they come out.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
malfred wrote: Maybe they should have called the Avengers Xmen War.
There's just so much going on and none of it seems to really
matter since they have to jump around so much. You get a
few story arcs and lots of noise.
In-Universe I believe that is what they refer to it as.
Anyone reading Infinity? It's the first major crossover I've been around for, so I'm trying to get it and the major tie-ins (new avengers and avengers), and so far I'm finding it really really good.
I'm reading it. Hasn't gotten it's hooks into me or anything.
They're not saying which is going to be used as the basis.
It is looking more and more like they are going to be using TV as a touchstone for the future JLA movie with how ARGUS made an appearance in Man of Steel...and the patch, acronym, etc were exactly the same as "Arrow" established for ARGUS.
They're not saying which is going to be used as the basis.
It is looking more and more like they are going to be using TV as a touchstone for the future JLA movie with how ARGUS made an appearance in Man of Steel...and the patch, acronym, etc were exactly the same as "Arrow" established for ARGUS.
Kanluwen wrote: When Supes gets taken into custody, it is a patch on one of the guys escorting him.
(I didn't spoiler this because that was one of the scenes more or less in the trailers since the beginning)
Interesting, I missed that spoiler. But yeah, it does certainly appear that WB will use the TV shows for universe building.
Did anyone read the Trinity War?
Spoiler:
I didn't see the Earth-3 reveal coming, although I was scratching my head at the appearance of The Outsider (who was an evil alter-ego of Alfred Pennyworth pre-Crisis) while Alfred was apparently alive/fine/elsewhere/etc. It's an interesting retcon of sorts to make The Outsider the Earth-3 Owlman's Alfred.
He Who Controls The Dice Controls The Universe 
