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I think that analysis is right, but in my experience you’ll always have a better target for AT. If your opponent is firing big guns at your intercessors it’s either because they are doing a good job of screening, or all your big stuff is dead and you’ve lost.

Ice_can wrote:

 Kelligula wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Kelligula wrote:
This entire thread makes me wish I focused more on my Scions, Custodes, and Drukhari instead of buying more Primaris...

Primaris are rumored to get lots of love in the Deathwatch codex, so you shouldn't abandon ship yet!


Also I'm at random going to just drop the list I've been using. I've made small changes to it over the course of a few games but so far the only time it failed me was my first ITC rules game and I played it poorly.

I could never abandon Gman and friends. At least we're not Grey Knights right now.

After going through all of the pages I have to say: To hell with the fluff. I'm getting Forgeworld stuff for my Primaris army.

Is the Plasma Sicaran even worth taking? It looks badass, but I don't have the FW index yet to check out rules.

Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be in the FW index, but also while I like sicarans, they do suffer from not having an invulnerable, I'm giving them one with a deredeo dreadnaught, but this kind limits mobility but helps against that first turn damage.
Also they need to be screened well as they lack chapter tactics.
Mortis contemptors are a good unit and a leviathan dread makes one very good distraction threat that takes work to remove.
It's unfortunately not enough to push marines up to tournament viable, but it kinda starts making them actually playable.


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While I get what both sides are saying about intercessors vrs tacs, to me the really big stand out is the sifference in what else is in your lists, Appologies if I'm not 100% as I'm running on memory here.
Martel is running mostly single wound marines, with lots of deepstrike and CC meaning intercessors in his list are the most likely to be the prime target for multi damage weapons, as they don't have a better target.
Primark your running a custodes list backed up with some intercessors, the custodes are all multiwound and more danagerous than intercessors, hence your intercessors are ignorable to your opponents, who are concentrating their multi damage weapons on your custodes. Their survival is because they aren't really that scary so can be ignored untill your custodes have been dealt with.

Intercessors in isolation are better than tacs due to getting a cheap second wound and better weapon. However this all fall down if they become the best target for anti tank weapons as killing intercessors with anti tank is more efficent that plinking tacs of one at a time.

Hmm.. You're right I think.

What is the best way to kill two flying have tyrants with our weak codex, according to you ?

Twinlas-contemptors ought to work okayish. BS2+, and presumably something giving rerolls as well, should get a few hits through.

Mandragola wrote:
I think that analysis is right, but in my experience you’ll always have a better target for AT. If your opponent is firing big guns at your intercessors it’s either because they are doing a good job of screening, or all your big stuff is dead and you’ve lost.

And honestly...Intercessors are only 5 points more at this point. It isn't a drastic difference in points for the very increased performance.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Twinlas-contemptors ought to work okayish. BS2+, and presumably something giving rerolls as well, should get a few hits through.

I don't know, they have a 4+ invu, 4 hit would be 2 or 3 wounds, and this would be 1 or 2 unsaved wounds. So 3.5 or 7 wounds. Not bad, but it would take 2 turns to kill one, 4 to kill the 2 flyrants.

 godardc wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Twinlas-contemptors ought to work okayish. BS2+, and presumably something giving rerolls as well, should get a few hits through.

I don't know, they have a 4+ invu, 4 hit would be 2 or 3 wounds, and this would be 1 or 2 unsaved wounds. So 3.5 or 7 wounds. Not bad, but it would take 2 turns to kill one, 4 to kill the 2 flyrants.

Would probably be wiser to go to Twin Autocannons then. The Deredeo I don't have memorized but it might function okay.

There currently is no efficient way to kill them, that's why they won a tournament. GW keeps handing out 4+ invuln saves like candy and this is what happens.

What you use against flyrants is: everything. Fire every gun you can find, then charge in and punch the things until they stop moving.

I killed 12 hive tyrants across two games at a tournament a few weeks back. One had 6 including some Chronos guys so psychic powers weren't an option. The other guy just went with 9 of the damn things.

The guy with 6 flyrants spread them out too much I think. I was able to deal with the ones that really threatened me, while the others were mucking about chasing inceptors and stuff - which wasn't great news for the inceptors it's true. Killed all 6 in the end and won the game.

The guy with 9 was more of a challenge because he was a really good player. He won all his other games that weekend. To take his flyrants out I had to send my fist of vengeance guy in, backed up by null zone from my librarian. I used the "honour the chapter" stratagem on him and he knocked over two flyrants in one assault phase - and a third in my opponent's turn. That helped!

I find that my repulsors are able to weather the initial alpha pretty well. Using the beta rules for smite and the stratagem that gives a vehicle a 5+++ against mortal wounds for a phase can make a great difference. And if they decide to fire their devourers at intercessors in cover, that's fine too.

I was using a contemptor mortis and that didn't do well though to be honest. The 6 flyrant guy took 3 wounds off it with a mawlock, then shot it with biovores and the relic venom cannon till it died. It also went turn 1 against the guy with 9 flyrants. I should have protected it better against the guy with 9, but there's not all that much you can really do about biovores and the relic VC.

Still, I came out of the two games with a win and a draw, which was decent.

I like to win and enjoy competitive games, but I just can't process playing 9 hive tyrant lists. I don't even see how the game is fun for anyone at that point, but to each their own.

Normally play guard and been playing around with the thought of starting some flavor of MEQ for a while.
Quite fancy building a force based around Roboute Guilliman, but don't fancy doing the whole castle-ing up in a corner gunline tactic, just wondering what other options there are?

At present I'v been wondering about a mid-field gunline,ie. units that can advance to and hold the middle of the table to better control opponents movements and the direction of the game as well as offering RG the chance for some melee. Initially looked at intercessors and hellblasters armed with assault variants, allowing them to be a bit more mobile and the 2 attacks helping a little if they get charged by any non-dedicate CC units, and then considered aggressors for the sheer amount of fire power plus a little more CC punch; but in both these cases I think they lack the durability to be viable even if I took the custodes vexilla for the invulnerable, though as a plus it would look pretty good as a victrix guard.

The other option I've looked at kind of defeats the point of RG as I'd probably proxy in another model for him (possibly a forgeworld Galatus), and make an all dreadnought army of contemptors and Leviathans. Their movement matches up with with RG, they can be kitted out for both melee and ranged similarly to RG and have similar levels of durability making target priority for the enemy's weapons a little trickier, also suspect the foot print of these models might be easier to keep more of them in RG's bubble. Downsides are they aren't assault so either move slower first turn or give up fire power, and the dreanought HQ would probably have to be a Chaplain dreadnought which doesn't look brilliant and moves slower so will be harder to keep together.
As far as list building goes wondering whether to make RG or the chaplain the warlord, as CP would probably be less important with lack of stratagems applying to them and the Chaplain could take storm of fire which would Combo well with all the rerolls, other decision would be ratio of normal contemptors to mortis contemptors is it worth giving up some fire power for better melee.

Basically interested in any thoughts on the viability of either theme and ways to improve them. Also from a fluff/crunch prespective of what would make up an effective victrix guard (one other option i forgot to mention is command squads as I feel some SS/plasma and SS/axe squads advancing up the field with the big man would look great but probably not so cost effective.

Cheers

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I like to win and enjoy competitive games, but I just can't process playing 9 hive tyrant lists. I don't even see how the game is fun for anyone at that point, but to each their own.

The game against the 9 flyrants was awesome actually. I had to pull out every move I could think of and have a little luck too, getting null zone off.

This was at a try out for the ETC team, so pretty much everyone in the room was a hardcore tournament junkie. People were also experimenting with some extreme lists to see if they would be an asset to the team. Feelings were not hurt by armies of 9 flyrants, 7 darktalons and so on.

My experience is that someone’s army isn’t a great predictor of whether they’re a nice person or not. Some of the tournament players I know are great people. A few aren’t, but the same goes for a few fluff players too.

So yeah, each to their own.


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ragnorack1 wrote:
Normally play guard and been playing around with the thought of starting some flavor of MEQ for a while.
Quite fancy building a force based around Roboute Guilliman, but don't fancy doing the whole castle-ing up in a corner gunline tactic, just wondering what other options there are?

I’d recommend sort of a mixture of your two options. There’s good synergy between primaris midfield guys and dreadnoughts.

Aggressors, inceptors, hellblasters and intercessors all benefit from hanging around Guilliman. Contemptor, leviathan (with storm cannons), deredeo and possibly redemptor dreads do too. A deredeo can get quite a lot of infantry in its 5++ bubble and has a bunch of guns - and would mean you didn’t need the custodian.

You can then have your righty dreads take point with Guilliman behind, supported by the primaris guys and deredeo.

You’d want some other stuff for a bit of mobility and/or range. Plasma inceptors can use the Ultramarines reroll 1s stratagem. Reivers can deep strike, and of course fire raptors exist.

You can actually have surprising numbers of intercessors if you want.

For HQ Ultramarines are spoiled for choice. Tiggy is first on the list. I’d mainly try to keep them cheap. Ordinary primaris guys backed up by RG and a chaplain dread will do surprisingly large amounts of damage in assault.

So I'm thinking of starting a crimson fists army at some point in the near future, thinking of taking a mid to close range approach for them. was wondering if you guys could offer some general pointers as to what worth taking and good ways to get started. Was thinking or grabbing some intercessors + vanguard vets plus appropriate character support to start off with, maybe some hellblasters too.

 ultimentra wrote:
There currently is no efficient way to kill them, that's why they won a tournament. GW keeps handing out 4+ invuln saves like candy and this is what happens.

I'm glad I'm not the only one frustrated by the presence of so many models with invul saves. Really makes AP pointless against a lot of things. Even Dark Eldar stuff has invul saves on some of their vehicles for some strange reason. I'd rather they have a rule where targeting them gives you a further -1 to hit, rather than the invul save. What little efficiency we have with things like lascannons and missile launchers is completely negated by things that are less expensive than our stuff, but for some reason have invul saves. Meanwhile, the only thing we have an invul save on is our captain...?

Lascannons and missile launchers suck vs raiders. I can personally attest.

If you think Dark Eldar is bad, I got news for you son. Try slogging it out against the Adeptus Mechanicus. Their vehicles have invuln saves too, and they're tougher.

I've beaten Admech I think every time. DE are much more mobile and their stuff is much cheaper.

I'm trying to figure out what my army needs next. I play against my boyfriends Orks all the time, and he typically runs just about anything that the Orks have, but never any full blown green tides, so similarly I usually build a TAC list to mirror this and our games are pretty evenly matched. That being said, I'd like to pick up something new to build that can fill a role my army is lacking.

Anyway, here's what I've got:

20 Tacticals (2 with magnetized special weapons, 2 Sergeants also magnetized)
5 Assault Marines (All BP & Chainsword)
8 Devastators (2 with HB, 2 with ML, the rest have Bolters)
10 Scouts (5 with Cloaks & Bolters, 5 with Shotguns)
2 Dreadnoughts (1 regular, 1 Ironclad)
5 Terminators (Standard with the Stormbolters)
5 Sternguard (All Bolters)
1 Librarian

I'll typically substitute the Terminator sergeant as a Captain when I feel like running something besides the Librarian, but I'd like to pick up a Chaplain some time and put a jump pack on him to run with the Assault squad and give them a little more punch.

Obviously, my collection entirely lacks armor, and transports for that matter. I haven't really felt like buying any armor since I feel a bit unimpressed by the aesthetics of SM tanks these days, with the exception of the Land Raider. I feel like a Land Raider would probably knock out two birds with one stone by giving me a method of transporting some of my marines while also using its Lascannons to zap any tougher targets. Only problem is it's quite expensive both in the game and in real life lol. I suppose another option is to go with Drop Pods, which I think are vastly cooler than any tanks, but I understand they're also quite over-costed this edition :(.

So going off what I listed, what do you all think is missing most that I need?

 Bubbles wrote:
I'm trying to figure out what my army needs next. I play against my boyfriends Orks all the time, and he typically runs just about anything that the Orks have, but never any full blown green tides, so similarly I usually build a TAC list to mirror this and our games are pretty evenly matched. That being said, I'd like to pick up something new to build that can fill a role my army is lacking.

Anyway, here's what I've got:

20 Tacticals (2 with magnetized special weapons, 2 Sergeants also magnetized)
5 Assault Marines (All BP & Chainsword)
8 Devastators (2 with HB, 2 with ML, the rest have Bolters)
10 Scouts (5 with Cloaks & Bolters, 5 with Shotguns)
2 Dreadnoughts (1 regular, 1 Ironclad)
5 Terminators (Standard with the Stormbolters)
5 Sternguard (All Bolters)
1 Librarian

I'll typically substitute the Terminator sergeant as a Captain when I feel like running something besides the Librarian, but I'd like to pick up a Chaplain some time and put a jump pack on him to run with the Assault squad and give them a little more punch.

Obviously, my collection entirely lacks armor, and transports for that matter. I haven't really felt like buying any armor since I feel a bit unimpressed by the aesthetics of SM tanks these days, with the exception of the Land Raider. I feel like a Land Raider would probably knock out two birds with one stone by giving me a method of transporting some of my marines while also using its Lascannons to zap any tougher targets. Only problem is it's quite expensive both in the game and in real life lol. I suppose another option is to go with Drop Pods, which I think are vastly cooler than any tanks, but I understand they're also quite over-costed this edition :(.


So going off what I listed, what do you all think is missing most that I need?

one thing that comes immediatly to mind is a captain, I know you proxy a termy sergent in sometimes, but I belvie right now in 8th you're limited to a patrol detachment without a second HQ.

One idea might be to pick up the Know No Fear starter set, it'll give you 1 captain, 1 intercessor squad, one inceptor squad and a hellblaster squad (it'll also give you some nurgle stuff you can use to make a small second army to mix things up when you're of a mind, or give to the boyfriend if he's wanting to branch out) pretty solid addition to a space marine army, for a hundred bucks.

I should have mentioned that I would like to avoid owning any Primaris models, at all . Not too interested in them. Thanks for the suggestion though. I'll see about getting myself an actual captain.

 godardc wrote:
What is the best way to kill two flying have tyrants with our weak codex, according to you ?

Print out the March (April?) FAQ that says you can't have more than one hive tyrant in a detachment. Laminate it. Slap them with it.


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 ultimentra wrote:
If you think Dark Eldar is bad, I got news for you son. Try slogging it out against the Adeptus Mechanicus. Their vehicles have invuln saves too, and they're tougher.

I hate Dunecrawlers (especially since they're the same base cost as Predators) but I don't think they're that tough to deal with. Lascannons on Lascannons means you're taking 1 out for sure, and while Dunecrawlers are tanky they actually aren't that devastating on their own.

Thankfully my local AdMech player has mercy and hasn't run 6 Kastellans though. I wouldn't even know what to do against Kastellan and Dunecrawler spam.

I regularly kill 9 castellans with deep strike shenanigans. Drukhari can turn off descent of angels. GG, bro

 Bubbles wrote:
I should have mentioned that I would like to avoid owning any Primaris models, at all . Not too interested in them. Thanks for the suggestion though. I'll see about getting myself an actual captain.

The Vanguard Veteran box is great for Captains, and is only a bit more expensive nowadays then the clampacks they sell. Since there is five bodies, and plenty of bits from both the Sternguard kit you already own and the VV box, you can make your Lieutenants, a blinged up sergeant for your AMs, etc.

The Contemptor Dreadnought is a good choice if you don't want armour nor Primaris, as the Kheres is good for most things Orks bring to the table and punching at S14 will wound almost anything the Orks have on a 2.

The Betrayal at Calth box is also a great place to expand a Space Marine force, as you essentially get the Characters, Dreadnought, and Terminators for free.

Martel732 wrote:
I regularly kill 9 castellans with deep strike shenanigans. Drukhari can turn off descent of angels. GG, bro

Deep strike what? I can't wound on 4s with Chainswords, and unless I can manage to get my 9" charge with Shrike to eat overwatch AND thunder hammers, I'm gonna be in for a bad time. If Shrike fails, Thunder Hammers need to face the overwatch and I'll lose probably 2-3 models and just eat gak. If Shrike gets in and Thunder Hammers fail, Shrike is at a huge risk. Even a perfect swing in melee is gonna cost me, since he can just make the last model of the unit explode for 1CP and do mortal wounds to my precious 1 wound 40 point models

About that...i'm deep striking slamguinius and sanguinary guard. Maybe not the best help. However, i stand by drukhari being much more fearsome than admech in general.

I don't think vanilla marines can line up and shoot admech. You need to get into melee with the robots at all costs.

Which means Black Templars or Raven Guard shenanigans.

Actually, autolas preds CAN line up and shoot them. But, that means taking preds. Maybe venerable dreads?

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, autolas preds CAN line up and shoot them. But, that means taking preds. Maybe venerable dreads?

Since Kastellans are vehicles you'd get benefit from Killshot so I'm not too scared. But the issue is my predators are going to be too busy cracking open Dunecrawlers to mess with robots, and if the robots are 12" in front of the Dunecrawlers, that means my Predators would need to be in range of robots before shooting dunecrawlers... 6 Dakkabots with Cawl does 9 wounds on average to Predators. So damn scary.

Kill the robots and then the dune crawlers can't stop your infantry. One unit of VV vets with storm shields can kill all the dune crawlers. The robots just have to be handled.

If you can get a unit into melee with robots, you're on the way to winning the game. Robots are not good in melee and they are almost always a very significant chunk of an admech army. preventing them from firing is very worth while.