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Once the robots lock down, you need only touch them. You don't even have to assault them. Assault the screen and then honor the chapter into the robots. GG, bro. I've done it so many times. Slamguinius then bats cleanup. You guys can use a captain with hammer as well, too.

The thing is that Slamguinius has that 3D6 charge range stratagem. We don't. We're looking at a 52% chance to succeed at charging from Deep Strike for one unit per turn, and that's with saving a Command Point and running Black Templars CT. It's just not comparable. The melee units in Codex: Blood Angels are far better than anything we can hope to field.

Use some Custodes - I have won every game versus BA.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The thing is that Slamguinius has that 3D6 charge range stratagem. We don't. We're looking at a 52% chance to succeed at charging from Deep Strike for one unit per turn, and that's with saving a Command Point and running Black Templars CT. It's just not comparable. The melee units in Codex: Blood Angels are far better than anything we can hope to field.

Just make up for it in quantity, I guess. If you charge the skitarri bodyguards with six units, three should make it and you can only honor the chapter with one of them anyway. You can cram one character, one vet unit and one regular unit in one drop pod. I don't know. It's what we have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
Use some Custodes - I have won every game versus BA.

Not sure Custodes help vs Castellans at all.

Well nice to see the new faq fixed the issues with marines

Yeah I wish they would have nerfed Roboute by changing his aura, not just making him more pricey.

Changes to special weapons to make things other than Plasma relevant, across the board points reduction, making the killshot type strategems can only require 2 tanks, and a buff to terminators would have been nice for Marines too.

Other than not seeing any real Marine changes, I do like the changes the FAQ did make.

It is only 15 points.

 Primark G wrote:
It is only 15 points.

Right, which to me doesn't solve much.

jcd386 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
It is only 15 points.

Right, which to me doesn't solve much.

It just means you can take slightly less around Guilliman if you run him. Not a huge nerf. Fire Raptors are toast though. Maybe if people drop SM competitively altogether after Guilliman and his birds become unplayable, they'll buff the army. But I wouldn't hold out for anything until Chapter Approved in December. Ugh.

Martel732 wrote:
Once the robots lock down, you need only touch them. You don't even have to assault them. Assault the screen and then honor the chapter into the robots. GG, bro. I've done it so many times. Slamguinius then bats cleanup. You guys can use a captain with hammer as well, too.

Per the brand new FAQ, that doesn't work. You need to charge the screen and the robots, which means eating robot overwatch. Hopefully you have something to deal with that.

"Per the brand new FAQ, that doesn't work. You need to charge the screen and the robots, which means eating robot overwatch. Hopefully you have something to deal with that."

Explain.

 Bubbles wrote:
I'm trying to figure out what my army needs next. I play against my boyfriends Orks all the time, and he typically runs just about anything that the Orks have, but never any full blown green tides, so similarly I usually build a TAC list to mirror this and our games are pretty evenly matched. That being said, I'd like to pick up something new to build that can fill a role my army is lacking.

Anyway, here's what I've got:

20 Tacticals (2 with magnetized special weapons, 2 Sergeants also magnetized)
5 Assault Marines (All BP & Chainsword)
8 Devastators (2 with HB, 2 with ML, the rest have Bolters)
10 Scouts (5 with Cloaks & Bolters, 5 with Shotguns)
2 Dreadnoughts (1 regular, 1 Ironclad)
5 Terminators (Standard with the Stormbolters)
5 Sternguard (All Bolters)
1 Librarian

I'll typically substitute the Terminator sergeant as a Captain when I feel like running something besides the Librarian, but I'd like to pick up a Chaplain some time and put a jump pack on him to run with the Assault squad and give them a little more punch.

Obviously, my collection entirely lacks armor, and transports for that matter. I haven't really felt like buying any armor since I feel a bit unimpressed by the aesthetics of SM tanks these days, with the exception of the Land Raider. I feel like a Land Raider would probably knock out two birds with one stone by giving me a method of transporting some of my marines while also using its Lascannons to zap any tougher targets. Only problem is it's quite expensive both in the game and in real life lol. I suppose another option is to go with Drop Pods, which I think are vastly cooler than any tanks, but I understand they're also quite over-costed this edition :(.

So going off what I listed, what do you all think is missing most that I need?

Things that spring to mind (nice collection of models I must say!):
Tacticals: Any thoughts on the heavy weapons? You want to seed some Lascannons in them or keep them in a move/shoot idea? I suggest lascannons so you have some variety of angles and shots of opportunity. Failing that, maybe the HB for more shots.
Assault Marines: Maybe one more pack of 5 and get some plasma pistols in there to hit a wee bit harder? I have been surprised how well these guys work in this edition even in melee with Orks! Usually needs some HQ to help them out however.
Devastators: Troop or vehicle/monstrous critter killers? Maybe seed the HB's into the tactical squads for more shooting and shove more lascannons or missile launchers in the group? (Preference lascannons).
Scouts: What role do you have in mind for them? Any thoughts on a heavy weapon? I tend to get a missile launcher and sniper rifles, cloaks and cover: irritates their characters and missile sniping. Can be fun.
Dreadnaughts: Loadout? Backyard protection (Assault cannon, fist & HF) or advance with cover fire (TL-LC, ML)?
Terminators: Any missile launchers in the mix? Teleport in and mug difficult squishy targets in the back? I found that terminators do not fare well with Orks... up-close.
Sternguard: Good for filling a hole pretty much anywhere with their special ammo, problem is getting them there.

I find in particular with Orks you need a fair bit of... DAKKA! Those mob rules for them make leadership issues a non-event.
I saw no transports, Rhinos with two storm bolters or a Razorback with a twin assault cannon will help with the shooting and getting around where needed.
A dakka pred is nice, the Autocannon on that thing is nasty and then you only need to decide on HB or LC on the sponsons.
Any thoughts on a flyer? All three choices (StormXXXX) have a fair bit of dakka and could be felt in any role.
Heck, a Whirlwind is lots of fun and makes the Orks deepstrike much more to take that thing out.

All the options are good strategy in the game AND are much fun for play. A mixed force looks very impressive when you get the chance.
i have three attack bikes with HBs and they are not optimal but my friend who plays Orks HATES those guys... I think my best dice rolling always happens with them.
Sometimes the army choices themselves can give a fair bit of character to the army.

Martel732 wrote:
"Per the brand new FAQ, that doesn't work. You need to charge the screen and the robots, which means eating robot overwatch. Hopefully you have something to deal with that."

Explain.

Q: If a unit that can fight twice in the Fight phase charges one enemy unit and destroys it during their first ‘fight’ in the subsequent Fight phase, and then consolidates into a second enemy unit, can they then attack that unit during their second ‘fight’?
A: The charging unit can only make attacks against the second unit if it also declared a charge against it in its charge phase.

If you use an ability that allows you to fight twice, you can only fight models that you charged in the charge phase. So if I charge Vanguard, kill them, and then use Honour the Chapter, I can't fight the Robots unless I declared a charge into them.

Correct, but they are still locked up

I think this leaves storm cannon Relic Contemptors Leviathans as the best dakka platform available for marines?

Anyone check my math on this but supported by LT and using the wisdom of the ancients they seem like the best bet we have. (also allow for a couple units to deepstrike given that they are 16 PL, although not enough to deepstrike a unit of plasma inceptors...)

Run them raven guard and -1 to hit t8 14 wounds and a 4++ seems like the best bet for survivable on field shooting (20 s7 -2 2d shots is close 10x rapid fire over charged plasma without worring about death from OC or spending 330 points on hellblasters) 24" range is the biggest problem and I'm not sure what to do about that...

[edit: contemtpors -> leviathan]

 SputnikDX wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Per the brand new FAQ, that doesn't work. You need to charge the screen and the robots, which means eating robot overwatch. Hopefully you have something to deal with that."

Explain.

Q: If a unit that can fight twice in the Fight phase charges one enemy unit and destroys it during their first ‘fight’ in the subsequent Fight phase, and then consolidates into a second enemy unit, can they then attack that unit during their second ‘fight’?
A: The charging unit can only make attacks against the second unit if it also declared a charge against it in its charge phase.

If you use an ability that allows you to fight twice, you can only fight models that you charged in the charge phase. So if I charge Vanguard, kill them, and then use Honour the Chapter, I can't fight the Robots unless I declared a charge into them.

I was never fighting them. Just touching them. They were never a declared charge target for the explicit purpose of avoiding overwatch.

All you need to do is consolidate into the robots.

 Primark G wrote:
All you need to do is consolidate into the robots.

Exactly.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
All you need to do is consolidate into the robots.

Exactly.

You can lock them up sure, but you won't be able to use Honour the Chapter to then hit the Robots in the fight phase.

I don't care about that. If they have locked down, they're done.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care about that. If they have locked down, they're done.

Then why even mention the ludicrous 3CP stratagem? Sorry, I just misunderstood.

In case you need the extra movement to get there. Some Admech players are tricksy. No worries, man, I post like everyone has played BA 500 times like myself.

Martel732 wrote:
In case you need the extra movement to get there. Some Admech players are tricksy. No worries, man, I post like everyone has played BA 500 times like myself.

That's some next level clutch play, and definitely something I wouldn't have thought of. 3CP for 3 inches seems like an extreme, but if it means those robots can't shoot I'd say it's worth it.

Though do Blood Angels not have something that can eat overwatch? I have Shrike who's immune to it, but could you use something like a cheapo Death Company?

 Talizvar wrote:
Things that spring to mind (nice collection of models I must say!):

Hey thanks for the write up! I suppose I should have provided a bit more detail about each unit I have, but I didn't want to ramble on too much .

 Talizvar wrote:
Tacticals: Any thoughts on the heavy weapons? You want to seed some Lascannons in them or keep them in a move/shoot idea? I suggest lascannons so you have some variety of angles and shots of opportunity. Failing that, maybe the HB for more shots.

I can definitely swap the MLs and HBs out of my Dev squads if I feel like giving the Tacs a little more firepower. I would like to pick up a second box of Devastators some day to be able to build some Lascannon marines too.

 Talizvar wrote:
Assault Marines: Maybe one more pack of 5 and get some plasma pistols in there to hit a wee bit harder? I have been surprised how well these guys work in this edition even in melee with Orks! Usually needs some HQ to help them out however.

Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever not been disappointed in my Assault Marines performance. I'm sure most of it comes down to my poor timing and positioning of their deep striking, but every time I take them they tend to let me down and achieve nothing before being shot up. Despite that, I often try to learn from my mistakes and consider better positioning and better timing for deep striking, and as you mentioned, I believe an HQ would help make a difference for them, and if all else fails, more bodies would help too lol.

 Talizvar wrote:
Devastators: Troop or vehicle/monstrous critter killers? Maybe seed the HB's into the tactical squads for more shooting and shove more lascannons or missile launchers in the group? (Preference lascannons).

As mentioned above already, I like this idea. I can definitely swap the weapons around and look into picking up some Lascannons.

 Talizvar wrote:
Scouts: What role do you have in mind for them? Any thoughts on a heavy weapon? I tend to get a missile launcher and sniper rifles, cloaks and cover: irritates their characters and missile sniping. Can be fun.

I have two squads of Scouts, the aforementioned cloaked squad does have a HB with them. I keep them in cover and use them as an objective holding/distraction unit. They've done quite well so far and I'm pretty happy with them. The other 5 man squad has 5 shotguns and a sergeant with a Power Fist (not the most optimal choice, but hey, I play Crimson Fists and I love how the power fists look, and it does pack a little extra punch in CC. He did kill a nob once lol. Overall though I tend to use these guys as screeners, objective holders, or just a cheap means of getting a Battalion without bringing a ton of Tacticals.

 Talizvar wrote:
Dreadnaughts: Loadout? Backyard protection (Assault cannon, fist & HF) or advance with cover fire (TL-LC, ML)?

I change his loadout all the time. I've got the standard kit (ML, AC, Lascannon, DCCW, and a Heavy Flamer from forgeworld) I'm typically happy with his performance, but seeing as he has the highest toughness of any unit in my army, he's often the target of my boyfriend's Tankbustas (or whatever else heavy weapons he's got.) Some extra armor would definitely help keep some of the heat off of him.

 Talizvar wrote:
Terminators: Any missile launchers in the mix? Teleport in and mug difficult squishy targets in the back? I found that terminators do not fare well with Orks... up-close.

My Terminators are Tartaros pattern from Forgeworld, so no ML unfortunately. I just run them as vanilla terminators with a heavy flamer and I've been happy with their performance. Deep strike in, spray their Stormbolters, and get stuck in with a suitable target such as Nobz or some sort of backline ranged unit. Over the years I've learned that when it comes to Space Marine close combat prowess, you always gotta pick your battles and make sure you're the stronger one.

 Talizvar wrote:
Sternguard: Good for filling a hole pretty much anywhere with their special ammo, problem is getting them there.

Similar to some of my other units, I just run these guys stock. I like most of my units cheap so that if something awful happens it doesn't hurt too much when they're wiped out. Their Special Issue Boltguns do well enough on their own. I often keep the librarian around to help them out as well.

 Talizvar wrote:

I find in particular with Orks you need a fair bit of... DAKKA! Those mob rules for them make leadership issues a non-event.
I saw no transports, Rhinos with two storm bolters or a Razorback with a twin assault cannon will help with the shooting and getting around where needed.
A dakka pred is nice, the Autocannon on that thing is nasty and then you only need to decide on HB or LC on the sponsons.
Any thoughts on a flyer? All three choices (StormXXXX) have a fair bit of dakka and could be felt in any role.
Heck, a Whirlwind is lots of fun and makes the Orks deepstrike much more to take that thing out.

All the options are good strategy in the game AND are much fun for play. A mixed force looks very impressive when you get the chance.
i have three attack bikes with HBs and they are not optimal but my friend who plays Orks HATES those guys... I think my best dice rolling always happens with them.
Sometimes the army choices themselves can give a fair bit of character to the army.

As I mentioned in my original post, I have little interest in buying Space Marine tanks. That being said, I still understand the value of their roles and I may just have to bite my tongue and pick some up. Missing out on transportation and tank mounted weaponry isn't doing me any favors.

I'm not too interested in flyers either. Again, I realize their importance and that not taking them out can leave a hole in my army, but unfortunately I'm stubborn about space marine vehicles and what I like aesthetically lol. I realize that's probably annoying to read when I've come here asking for suggestions on what to add to my army and I'm basically telling you that I don't want a large portion of what the SM has to offer... but I will do a serious reconsidering of the tanks. I have considered a whirlwind for a little extra cheap firepower. What are your thoughts on a Land Raider this edition?

I'm definitely down for running a mixed force. I've never really liked shoehorning my army into one role. Combined arms does look great on the table!

Again, thanks for the suggestions!

 SputnikDX wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
In case you need the extra movement to get there. Some Admech players are tricksy. No worries, man, I post like everyone has played BA 500 times like myself.

That's some next level clutch play, and definitely something I wouldn't have thought of. 3CP for 3 inches seems like an extreme, but if it means those robots can't shoot I'd say it's worth it.

Though do Blood Angels not have something that can eat overwatch? I have Shrike who's immune to it, but could you use something like a cheapo Death Company?

BA have a relic jump pack that makes a character immune. That's all. And it's 6 inches, because you get to pile in and consolidate again.

Glad to see this thread is proving useful for SM players.

/3thumbsup

VV can do all the same stuff. So can reivers.

So The FAQ for SM clarified that hellfire shell for HB and the flakk missle strategems works together with armourium cherub. You could dish out 2*d3 mortal wounds on 2+ or 2*d3 mortal wounds against something with fly using ML. (once per game and squad). Considering we also got more CP, thoughts?

Gitdakka wrote:
So The FAQ for SM clarified that hellfire shell for HB and the flakk missle strategems works together with armourium cherub. You could dish out 2*d3 mortal wounds on 2+ or 2*d3 mortal wounds against something with fly using ML. (once per game and squad). Considering we also got more CP, thoughts?

Makes the strats marginally better, still not a great boost for the army, not to mention we lost a bucket load of deepstrike ability with the 50% units 50% power reserves and deepstike in your own DZ turn 1.
DropPods were bad before but post FAQ do they have any use?

In general I think deepstrike is going to be regulated to one or two units tops that you can afford to hold until turn 2-3 when the time is right to strike. This is a massive Nerf, sure, but it's the same as what we had in previous editions, so I think it will just take some getting used to, rather than it just being terrible in general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think to fix drop pods, you'd have to let them break the new deepstrike rule, it make them like 35 points again.

Wasn't the deepstrike stuff in the Beta rules? Does anyone use the Beta rules when playing? I'm hoping that some of that stuff never makes it to a formal update.