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We always use beta rules.

Seriously who uses drop pods competitively? This was a boost for RG.

 BigErn wrote:
Wasn't the deepstrike stuff in the Beta rules? Does anyone use the Beta rules when playing? I'm hoping that some of that stuff never makes it to a formal update.

Then I would start emailing GW a well worded rational example of how unbalanced it made the game you tried them out in and which units it impacted.


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 Primark G wrote:
Seriously who uses drop pods competitively? This was a boost for RG.

The question now is who would us drop pods full stop.
RG are the last hope of a viable marine army now.

Martel732 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The thing is that Slamguinius has that 3D6 charge range stratagem. We don't. We're looking at a 52% chance to succeed at charging from Deep Strike for one unit per turn, and that's with saving a Command Point and running Black Templars CT. It's just not comparable. The melee units in Codex: Blood Angels are far better than anything we can hope to field.

Just make up for it in quantity, I guess. If you charge the skitarri bodyguards with six units, three should make it and you can only honor the chapter with one of them anyway. You can cram one character, one vet unit and one regular unit in one drop pod. I don't know. It's what we have.

You if anyone should know we don't have the points to spare for units to stand around doing nothing because they failed a charge roll, and what happens to units that are caught 9" away from the enemy lines in the open. It's not like the Vanilla Codex melee units are magically cheaper than the Blood Angels equivalent just because they're much worse. They should be, but they aren't. It's true that it's "what we have", but "what we have" is rubbish.

That's the best I can come up with for templars. Use the chapter tactic as many times as humanly possible. It's not good, I agree.

Templars are good but people don’t know how to play them.

How is that? Because I don't really respect any of their units in CC except VV. And TH/SS terminators I guess.

They have great buff characters.

Well, 'The Flesh is Weak' does not stack with the 'Tenacious Survivor' trait or with the Ven Dred 'Unyielding Ancient' ability anymore for the Iron Hands. However, still a nerf but at least they work against Mortal Wounds .

Plus my idea for the empty Drop Pod for JP character distraction/melee units (like to chase Riptides) just got a small hit. It might have to wait to T2 to go anywhere else on the field outside the deployment zone (which isn't too bad) but oh well...In the games I've tried, the JP characters provided some needed distractions for my opponent that couldn't be targeted unless they erased the empty pod first. 10 3+Sv T6 wounds is just as tough as our other vehicles but for far less points. Took a Fusion Blaster Commander to get rid of it, who in turn was killed by a TH/SS Captain in CC. While I get the pod is meant for a unit to go inside, the JP character buddies need TH's to do any significant damage to their targets and a SS to survive incoming hits. Only mistake I made was not keep them together to kill stuff faster. Rest of my list needed some changes but overall (even with the FAQ changes) I think the empty pod/JP characters is pretty viable. My meta has some pretty competitive players so I'll get plenty of chances to try it out the next few weeks.

Edit: I forgot to mention my forces were RG & the Silent Stalker WT was a great add to the Captain.

 Primark G wrote:
They have great buff characters.

How does that help vs castellans?

Was kinda hoping Bikes would be troops again. My SM List has 6 units of SM Bikers. Its the only army I have that would be affected by the 3 unit restriction.


Looks like some of my Marines have been upgraded to 1st Company Bikers for now!

Yeah, the rule of 3 really does hurt fluffy White Scars lists taking all bikes. Though as you aren't likely to take that one to a tournament, just ask your opponent. I doubt your buddy at the local shop will stop you from playing a bunch of bikers.

BT best asset is their relic on a chapter master, and the ability to shut down clutch psychic powers. They're best played as a gunline army. The +3" on the bubble more than doubles the effective area covered, and storm of fire is fantastic for razorbacks, tarantulas and autocannon preds (esp with killshot). Crusaders can actually do decent damage coming out of razorbacks, or with auspex scan, while being obsec troops.

BT probably third best chapter after UM and RG, and that's just because they're good at the only thing vanilla SM do right now - gunline. Also because basically every other chapter is garbage, unfortunately.

Salamanders have a good tactic, but it's not enough when volume of fire is so necessary in 8th, and half of it (reroll to hit) can be accomplished with a chapter master.

White scars have a good tactic and strat, but codex SM units just suck at assault. If VV and vet bikers were cheaper, there might be some builds revolving around them and WS.

IH and IF... don't do anything that SM need help with. 6+++ for free is nice, but SM units in general are just overcosted for their task, and ~16% more durability isn't enough to change that. Ignores cover is also nice for free, but cover isn't what's breaking SM.

CF have a baller relic, but gakky IF tactic and strat.

Exactly BT are an excellent shooty army.

Please excuse the dumb question, but is it unlikely for GW to change the chapter tactics for IH and IF in chapter approved?

 Kelligula wrote:
Please excuse the dumb question, but is it unlikely for GW to change the chapter tactics for IH and IF in chapter approved?

Fairly unlikely? But we're in a relatively new era of GW making significant rules adjustments on a regular basis.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Was kinda hoping Bikes would be troops again. My SM List has 6 units of SM Bikers. Its the only army I have that would be affected by the 3 unit restriction.


Looks like some of my Marines have been upgraded to 1st Company Bikers for now!

You can still take either 3 units of 6 and combat squad into 6x3, or take squads of 9 and an attack bike and combat squad into 6x5. You also have bike command squads from the index, scout bikes, and attack bike squads. Seems like that should be enough for a fluffy list right?

 Kelligula wrote:
Please excuse the dumb question, but is it unlikely for GW to change the chapter tactics for IH and IF in chapter approved?

If enough concerned players banded together and approached GW in a reasonable manner I think they might redress it.

 Kelligula wrote:
Please excuse the dumb question, but is it unlikely for GW to change the chapter tactics for IH and IF in chapter approved?

The Imperial Fist one is gonna gain traction as more people use camping Tyranids and Tau.

Iron Hands have no hope after the FAQ.

Appart from number of charictor what exactly do people think will keep ultramarines a competitive choice for vanilla marine lists?
As right now I'm not seeing anything that actually out weighs the benifit of ravenguard given getting within 12 inch with beta rules is going to be very rare

RG seems like the clear winner to me right now. They are considerably more durable over 12", and have the ability to sneak a unit like aggressors up close to delete a unit.

The durability is perhaps even better than before considering we may see more shooty lists in the future, and sneaking units got better because bubble wrap may become less significant with the new deepstrike restrictions.

UM have Tig and Roboute, and both are still fairly effective, but otherwise I don't see much reason to run UM.

I think IF gets a bad rap most of the time. Their warlord trait aura is actually better than the RG tactic against some weapons, and their chapter trait can increase their offensive ability significantly against anything in cover. I think the situational nature of it turns people off of them though.

"Black Templars are great, you just have to play then in a manner that's completely antithetical to how they're suppopsed to operate and they're the third-best option in the Codex. Black Templars players just don't know how to play."

Let's just say that Rule 1 prevents me from responding in a manner that this line of thought deserves. When you're reduced to what is essentially "lol l2p" as an argument, if less rudely worded, you might want to think over just what it is you're doing.

jcd386 wrote:
RG seems like the clear winner to me right now. They are considerably more durable over 12", and have the ability to sneak a unit like aggressors up close to delete a unit.

The durability is perhaps even better than before considering we may see more shooty lists in the future, and sneaking units got better because bubble wrap may become less significant with the new deepstrike restrictions.

UM have Tig and Roboute, and both are still fairly effective, but otherwise I don't see much reason to run UM.

I think IF gets a bad rap most of the time. Their warlord trait aura is actually better than the RG tactic against some weapons, and their chapter trait can increase their offensive ability significantly against anything in cover. I think the situational nature of it turns people off of them though.

Tiggy is a libby who can make 1 unit-1 to hit RG chapter tactic is makes everyone -1 to hit over 12inch so all of T1 and most likely T2 aswell.
Bobby G is good but I feel he, has hit a pointa coat where he's too much without building an entire list that is within 6 incha of him. Which is about as fun to play as warching paint dry.

 Primark G wrote:
Seriously who uses drop pods competitively? This was a boost for RG.

Not if you go second. StfS isn't deep strike. It's deployment. Since you don't know if you're going first or second due to turn order be relegated to a roll-off after deployment, SftS can either be amazing or nearly useless, and a waste of CP.

SftS still seems pretty useful to me even if you go second, since you aren't actually putting the units on the table until you know if you go first or second. If you're going second deploy forward in cover/out of LOS and move into position during your turn, if going first you get to be right where you want to be. What's the problem?

 Porphyrius wrote:
SftS still seems pretty useful to me even if you go second, since you aren't actually putting the units on the table until you know if you go first or second. If you're going second deploy forward in cover/out of LOS and move into position during your turn, if going first you get to be right where you want to be. What's the problem?

The problem is I'd usually have units in Deep Strike ready to support SftS units if I went first. There was a great synergy with SftS and Deep Strike on Turn 1, where I could infiltrate my vanguards right into their faces, drop Shrike in range to provide his CM aura, try to get Shrike to charge to eat overwatch, and then begin the choppy. If I got Turn 2 I'd do what you said: deploy my vanguards conservatively, move them into range on Turn 2, drop Shrike, same thing. Now even THIS I can't do, since Deep Strike isn't available until my second turn - so if I kept the same strategy, I'd need to infiltrate into a ruin that my opponent can't reach for 2 entire turns, which absolutely kills that strategy.

Now I need to spend more CP to either win the gamble and go all in on turn 1 more effectively (but more costly) than before, or spend the CP and lose the gamble and effectively pay 4 CP (Shrike, Libby, 2 Vanguard Squads) just for a scout deployment.

Turn 1 no deep strike - sure. Round 1 no deep strike can off though. Deploying in reserve was a safe way to play since there's always a risk to go second, and now your opponent has TWO TURNS to set his army up, whereas the person who goes second only has one. It makes IGOUGO even worse in my opinion.

Sure, it definitely changes the available options since you can't deep strike in support on turn 1. However, assuming you're using a battalion in your list, you also just got 2 more CP to play with, so you can SftS in your support units rather than deep striking them and still have the same CP available for the rest of the game. Plus, since you're not deep striking, you won't have to worry as much about making a long charge from deep strike (I'm assuming that you want Shrike to deny overwatch).

The change will definitely require some retooling of lists and strategies, but given the additional CP I don't think this hurts RG all that much; if anything, I imagine people will be less careful about bubblewrap since there will be far fewer turn 1 threats overall. We'll see how this shakes up the meta of course, but I think it's a net gain to RG overall.

 Porphyrius wrote:
Sure, it definitely changes the available options since you can't deep strike in support on turn 1. However, assuming you're using a battalion in your list, you also just got 2 more CP to play with, so you can SftS in your support units rather than deep striking them and still have the same CP available for the rest of the game. Plus, since you're not deep striking, you won't have to worry as much about making a long charge from deep strike (I'm assuming that you want Shrike to deny overwatch).

The change will definitely require some retooling of lists and strategies, but given the additional CP I don't think this hurts RG all that much; if anything, I imagine people will be less careful about bubblewrap since there will be far fewer turn 1 threats overall. We'll see how this shakes up the meta of course, but I think it's a net gain to RG overall.

It breaks the competitive combo raven guard and raptors did. They were 100 percent reliant on the alpha strike from a combination of SftS and deepstriking, Now they can't deep strike, making the combo much much much weaker.

The 50% PL on the table has really screwed up my plans for a DA/BA army. Plasma ceptors in units greater than 3 are 20 PL, 2 of those and the captian/lt to back them up is like 50+ PL.

I had finally landed on boltgun+cs DC for the most efficient SM chaff clearing but if they can't even start to clear chaff until turn 2 and have to start on the table if I want to deepstrike DA plasma ceptors they are off the list.

How do people find scout bikers compared to RG aggressors (any other suggestions?)? The aggressors exacerbate my deepstrike PL problem but seem to offer greater horde clearing per point than the bikers but are more risky (not as good if I go second).

With ITC terrain rules and lots of terrain, SftS still works even if you go second. It's very easy to bunker down for a turn and still be close enough to get a decent charge due to 12" movement (and Advancing and charging if you have Raven's Fury.)

I need to playtest it. I'm overreacting with 0 experience with the new rules, so maybe it will work out, but I'm still skeptical.