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 Porphyrius wrote:
.... you can SftS in your support units rather than deep striking them and still have the same CP available for the rest of the game. Plus, since you're not deep striking, you won't have to worry as much about making a long charge from deep strike (I'm assuming that you want Shrike to deny overwatch).

After a day to let it settle, I can see a reason to build a Brigade for CP for lots of board control to stop enemy DS even more with RG basically for the reasons you said as well. Can StfS some termies, VV, Sternguard, Cents, Grav Dev's (cause they're just sitting on my shelf) & of course Primaris units pretty close with the scouts for some early fire lanes & denying enemy DS. Of all the things that stuck out to me, the limiting of DS hurt so many others compared to RG.

Unfortunately for my Iron Hands I cannot see much reason why they would want to make their tactic any better in CA. I wondered if they would have combined the CT they have with a version of the AdMech <Lucius> Dogma since they said the stacking of FNP was going against the design they wanted.

 Bubba4President wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:
.... you can SftS in your support units rather than deep striking them and still have the same CP available for the rest of the game. Plus, since you're not deep striking, you won't have to worry as much about making a long charge from deep strike (I'm assuming that you want Shrike to deny overwatch).

After a day to let it settle, I can see a reason to build a Brigade for CP for lots of board control to stop enemy DS even more with RG basically for the reasons you said as well. Can StfS some termies, VV, Sternguard, Cents, Grav Cents (cause they're just sitting on my shelf) & of course Primaris units pretty close with the scouts for some early fire lanes & denying enemy DS. Of all the things that stuck out to me, the limiting of DS hurt so many others compared to RG.

Unfortunately for my Iron Hands I cannot see much reason why they would want to make their tactic any better in CA. I wondered if they would have combined the CT they have with a version of the <Lucius> Dogma but they said the stacking of FNP was going against the design they wanted.

I don't think you'd be able to build a brigade for 2000 points while taking Termies, VV, Sternguard, and Cents alongside Primaris marines. Filling those slots is just difficult.

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Bubba4President wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:
.... you can SftS in your support units rather than deep striking them and still have the same CP available for the rest of the game. Plus, since you're not deep striking, you won't have to worry as much about making a long charge from deep strike (I'm assuming that you want Shrike to deny overwatch).

After a day to let it settle, I can see a reason to build a Brigade for CP for lots of board control to stop enemy DS even more with RG basically for the reasons you said as well. Can StfS some termies, VV, Sternguard, Cents, Grav Cents (cause they're just sitting on my shelf) & of course Primaris units pretty close with the scouts for some early fire lanes & denying enemy DS. Of all the things that stuck out to me, the limiting of DS hurt so many others compared to RG.

Unfortunately for my Iron Hands I cannot see much reason why they would want to make their tactic any better in CA. I wondered if they would have combined the CT they have with a version of the <Lucius> Dogma but they said the stacking of FNP was going against the design they wanted.

I don't think you'd be able to build a brigade for 2000 points while taking Termies, VV, Sternguard, and Cents alongside Primaris marines. Filling those slots is just difficult.

Not all at once but any combination of, which was what I meant lol.

I'm more annoyed that I can't run 5 separate Tarantula Sentry Guns at the moment. That was easily the best Fast Attack choice we had

Overall I think the changes help marines more than they hurt them. SftS still works fine, giving us one of the more viable first turn charges, and in fact it might be easier to do if people screen less.

Meanwhile some of the really horrible lists out there have been significantly nerfed, which is obviously great news for marines in general.

I do think the deep strike nerf goes a bit too far. It nerfs flyrant spam, but that's already nerfed by the 0-3 thing and points increase. Meanwhile it drops poor old GKs right down the toilet, where their fancy armour will get awful things on it. Maybe they can do something about the fatbergs while they're down there.

Also my Tau look at this and ask "wtf did we do to deserve this?"... then realise that ghostkeels and coldstar commanders are still fine. No biggie. My unbuilt crisis suits will remain on their frame.

GW does have a habit of over-nerfing things, and I think that's what happened here. I was considering putting in some deep strike reivers or dakka inceptors. Neither of those are broken units - indeed they struggle to justify their spot in my list. It doesn't make tons of sense to make them worse.

The one unit that's a problem when it deep strikes is the "whole ton of dark reapers". They seem not to mind this much really, as their 48" range ought to be adequate. I guess they can't easily soulburst now - and the psychic power to make them do it is harder to cast. And they are more expensive. That now actually feels about right.

And as for making sense... yeah how come all the guys already there waiting on the battlefield aren't allowed to come out on turn 1? Wtf are Lias and all his friends up to exactly?

Anyway overall the changes will be good for the game, so all is well.

On the topic of a RG brigade, what about something like this? You'd have 15 CP to play with, and should be able to completely control the board. Not sure if there's enough punch, though. Bonus, it's also reasonably fluffy for RG, what with the number of Scouts.


++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [124 PL, 1978pts] ++

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 80pts]: Power sword, Storm bolter

Kayvaan Shrike [8 PL, 150pts]

Lieutenants [4 PL, 66pts]
. Lieutenant: Power sword, Storm bolter

Lieutenants [5 PL, 80pts]
. Lieutenant: Chainsword, Jump Pack, Storm bolter, Teeth of Terra

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 147pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 147pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 147pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 143pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Veteran Sergeant: 2x Lightning Claw

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 152pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Veteran Sergeant: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 158pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Plasma pistol, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Plasma pistol
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Plasma pistol
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Plasma pistol
. Veteran Sergeant: 2x Plasma pistol

+ Fast Attack +

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 77pts]
. 2x Scout Biker: 2x Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Storm bolter, Twin boltgun

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 77pts]
. 2x Scout Biker: 2x Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Storm bolter, Twin boltgun

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 77pts]
. 2x Scout Biker: 2x Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Storm bolter, Twin boltgun

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Astartes shotgun, Chainsword
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Astartes shotgun, Chainsword
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Astartes shotgun, Chainsword
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 67pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 3x Scout w/Boltgun
. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

Scout Squad [6 PL, 67pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 3x Scout w/Boltgun
. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

Scout Squad [6 PL, 67pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. 3x Scout w/Boltgun
. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

++ Total: [124 PL, 1978pts] ++

I realy don't like the load out on the vanguard vets to be honest, not how I would play them.
I think it's relying too much on the -1 to hit for survival which isn't great with reapers and fast moving Drukari around.

Totally fair, just spitballing ideas. How would you kit out your VVs?

It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier

Hmm interesting... I do run a double chainsword and storm shield/chainsword in a unit of VVs I run, but I wasn't sure about reducing the number of effective models in a list like this.

My thinking with those three units was that each presents a different kind of threat to respond to a wider variety of lists, but given how close they are in points you could easily use a single loadout three times instead.

Ice_can wrote:
It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier

Too expensive for my liking and not focused enough. I'm strictly for Chainswords or Claws and nothing else.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier

Too expensive for my liking and not focused enough. I'm strictly for Chainswords or Claws and nothing else.

Do you include an ablative double chainsword wound, or kit all 5 the same way?

 Porphyrius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier

Too expensive for my liking and not focused enough. I'm strictly for Chainswords or Claws and nothing else.

Do you include an ablative double chainsword wound, or kit all 5 the same way?

Honestly? Marines are too expensive anyway that a cheap wound or two does little for me overall. You can probably get away with the LC Sergeant just doing a single Lightning Claw and Shield or Chainsword as he has enough attacks with everyone else.

LC works surprisingly okay. Just don't expect them to do much except work through the chaff and die for not much better performance than the Chainsword squad.

I like where you are heading with this.

Maybe sneak in a heavy bolter on one of the dev squads for that cherub + strat for 2d3 mortal wounds?

I get worried with so much anti tank tied up on devs but given how many scouts you have hopefully you can keep them screened long enough to take out any big threats (and new no deepstrike til turn 2 should help)

The best combo is all double chainswords.

 Primark G wrote:
The best combo is all double chainswords.

You literally did not know this existed until a few pages ago, all the while telling Marine players their army was fine when you don't even know the options.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier

Too expensive for my liking and not focused enough. I'm strictly for Chainswords or Claws and nothing else.

Do you include an ablative double chainsword wound, or kit all 5 the same way?

Honestly? Marines are too expensive anyway that a cheap wound or two does little for me overall. You can probably get away with the LC Sergeant just doing a single Lightning Claw and Shield or Chainsword as he has enough attacks with everyone else.

LC works surprisingly okay. Just don't expect them to do much except work through the chaff and die for not much better performance than the Chainsword squad.

I used mine to go back field hunting I need to figure out exactly how to make them work with beta rules.
I find the 3D is worth the cost over d3 powerfists and they have killed number of artillery or picking on oblits etc

So, Calgar and a Lieutenant for 265 points or Guilliman for 400 now?

Hmm. Actually have to think about it a bit.

Might have to convert up a Cataphractii version of Calgar to go with my Scouring era dudes. Main issue would be the bolterfists.

 Crazyterran wrote:
So, Calgar and a Lieutenant for 265 points or Guilliman for 400 now?

Hmm. Actually have to think about it a bit.

Might have to convert up a Cataphractii version of Calgar to go with my Scouring era dudes. Main issue would be the bolterfists.

Rowboat is at the correct price point now, but now the army is really lame in terms of functioning.

My artillery list is gonna be reworked for sure. I might do Sternguard Lias bomb again as nobody will expect it again.

 Crazyterran wrote:
So, Calgar and a Lieutenant for 265 points or Guilliman for 400 now?

Hmm. Actually have to think about it a bit.

Might have to convert up a Cataphractii version of Calgar to go with my Scouring era dudes. Main issue would be the bolterfists.

That is what i will be trying next. Guilliman is now doulbe the cost of Calgar, so he is worth a try. More often than not Gman didn't make it in to combat and "only" buffed the gunline. Reroll failed moral tests is usless in mono-marines anyway. +1" to charge and advance not so useful in a gunline. 12" reroll failed hits of 1 and 6" reroll all wounds will be missed though.

Calgar should be better than a Chapter Master in Gravis Armour. But you can give him the Sanctic Halo.

Crimson_ wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
So, Calgar and a Lieutenant for 265 points or Guilliman for 400 now?

Hmm. Actually have to think about it a bit.

Might have to convert up a Cataphractii version of Calgar to go with my Scouring era dudes. Main issue would be the bolterfists.

That is what i will be trying next. Guilliman is now doulbe the cost of Calgar, so he is worth a try. More often than not Gman didn't make it in to combat and "only" buffed the gunline. Reroll failed moral tests is usless in mono-marines anyway. +1" to charge and advance not so useful in a gunline. 12" reroll failed hits of 1 and 6" reroll all wounds will be missed though.

Calgar should be better than a Chapter Master in Gravis Armour. But you can give him the Sanctic Halo.

Sanctic Halo isn't a big deal. The SM army is stupidly reliant on the special characters compared to every other codex released. Outside AdMech of course but they only have one so...
Well the best generic character for us is the Lt. Otherwise we have named characters for everything else besides Techmarines, who are horrible so it doesn't matter.

And you don't need a filler character for the battalion because Calgar fits in it aswell. So Tiggy, Calgar and a Lieutenant ist is.

The 3 cp chapter master also seems more appealing now that we get more CP from battillions. Most lists will have at least 2 more CP than before, effectively making the CM upgrade only cost 1 compared to pre FAQ days.

74 points for the captain and 60 for the Lt is 134 for an almost Roboute, plus whatever upgrades you might want on them.

I think there's much less of a case for playing ultramarines if you aren't using RG.

Calgar is fine, but he's not the only chapter master and arguably not the best. You've got Kantor, Shrike, Helbrecht and of course Azrael, Seth and Dante.

I think that Azrael is the stand-out chapter master at the moment. He's got so much great wargear and a really good warlord trait too. Him plus a lieutenant cost way less than RG, but bring a 4++ bubble as well as rerolls to hit and 1s to wound.

To be honest, DA now do the job of the "gun blob" better than codex marines. They have a stratagem to let a unit fall back and shoot, another to make their hellblasters do 3 damage per hit, all the units codex marines get and a bunch of other stuff.

Ice_can wrote:
It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier

Mine is...

Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer storm shield (bad loadout but I can't get his shield arm off to swap it out!)
Dude with bolt pistol storm shield (he's called Lt. Sacrifice as he's always the first man to die)
Dude with plasma pistol storm shield
Dude with plasma pistol power sword
3 Dudes with twin plasma pistols

Usually supported by a captain with jump pack, combi plasma & power fist. Hammer would be better but we use the models we've painstakingly painted, eh?


A very multi functional squad who like to either start out of LOS and fly forwards, or drop into terrain for 2+ 3++, do 8 overcharged plasma shots then charge the next turn.

That feels like a lot of points for a VV squad. Do you not find them just dying super quickly?

I think I've mentioned it before but here's my VV kit. It's worked for me:

Chainsword/Bolt Pistol
Chainsword/Bolt Pistol
Chainsword/Bolt Pistol
Chainsword/Bolt Pistol
Sergeant with 2x Lightning Claws

102 points. And I run 2 of them.

Then I have another with 5 pure TH/SS vets at 195 points. They either wreck shop or get shot to gak since 3++ doesn't do anything against lots of dice.

Kdash wrote:
That feels like a lot of points for a VV squad. Do you not find them just dying super quickly?

It is quite expensive. I feel like the whole codex is. Every time I make a list that looks like it could be ok at 2000 pts, it's 2250.
They've done pretty well so far - having three storm shields helps hugely. They don't like Smite. I have a jump pack librarian who goes with them for Denial, Null Zone and maybe Might of Heroes.

 Silentz wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
It sounds wierd but has a purpose.
Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer chainsword
Dude with storm shield chainsword*
Dude with 2 chainswords.*
I usually try and double up the * two if the points are available double chainswords are for normal 0AP wounds/mortal wounds and storm shield for anything heavier

Mine is...

Sarge hammer chainsword
Dude with hammer storm shield (bad loadout but I can't get his shield arm off to swap it out!)
Dude with bolt pistol storm shield (he's called Lt. Sacrifice as he's always the first man to die)
Dude with plasma pistol storm shield
Dude with plasma pistol power sword
3 Dudes with twin plasma pistols

Usually supported by a captain with jump pack, combi plasma & power fist. Hammer would be better but we use the models we've painstakingly painted, eh?


A very multi functional squad who like to either start out of LOS and fly forwards, or drop into terrain for 2+ 3++, do 8 overcharged plasma shots then charge the next turn.

Magnets on all the things, has become my new mantra.
But yeah it's very much trying to make the best out of an ok unit.
Thats why I try to take a couple of chumps to eat the dying before my hammer smashers die so they can atleast get a turn to try and win back their points. They realy benifit from a charictor to give them reroll hits though but thats even more points. But I'm switching to RG now so I have reason to get an old 2nd LC captain model rebased to 32mm and on the field.

The problem I’m starting to see with VV, is, now they feel like a suicide Raven Guard unit at best, a turn 3 distraction at worst.

One of my ideas since the FAQ has been a large SftS presence with essentially lascannon and scout/biker unit support.

SftS section would be:
Shrike
1x 5 Vanguard Vets (2 double chainswords, 3 double LC… Now thinking maybe 5x plasma + chainsword might be better)
2x 5 Reivers
Terminators (2 with TH/SS, 3 double LC)
Tyberos
Librarian with JP, Stormbolter and Staff
1x 7 Scouts with knives and pistols.

Essentially 7 CP to do it, but, the more I look at it, the more I’m starting to think it feels very expensive and I’m not sure it’ll make as much of a dent as I want it to.

Sure, it can wipe out 3-4 screening units and maybe a character or 2, but, then I can’t help but think the VVs, Scouts and probably the Terminators get wiped out straight away, leaving me with just 3 characters and a couple of Reivers in their lines alongside mainly just bolter shots.


The issue then becomes one of a beta strike weakness, not having first turn, facing 200 ork boyz, or not killing enough DE Venoms first turn to give me a chance to keep up with them.

This idea is born from thinking about how to attempt to counter a Guard/Tau gunline and the new DE. Should be reasonable against Eldar now as well, again if with 1st turn.