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If you mainly win by tabling, but can't take out chaff, how does that work? I'm not suggesting you're ever gonna get Hold More every single turn, but merely that removing your opponent's models is typically the way to go rather than just hoping you get more within 3" for most armies in 8th. 3 Jetbike HQs can take down 28 boys before morale on average. It's definitely in the cards for even the weakest custodes list to remove every single troops model from a single objective in one turn.

Audustum wrote:

You usually don't have both and that's the Crux of the problem.

The list in question explicitly brings both.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did you see my post? I literally said we have three main objectives, of at which we can handle 2 at most, and a single one of the three can crush us. We can be anti-horde, anti-armor, or objective holders, but we can't do all three.

Against a squad of 15 tzangors, backed up by tzeench sorcerers, or daemon princes, are -1 to hit, and get a myriad of other buffs, he won't do so hot.

He has 3 separate bikes on his list. given the standard rerolls, each will in the shooting phase, kill about 2 models out of 15. That isn't enough, even if all three focus fire down the squad, to take out a single squad of Tzangors. Then he might just get them all back in moral. It gets even worse if he's up against Deathguard.

Everyone loves to love the bikes, because they are totally awesome, but there are a lot of ways to cheese them out. And before you say what about the tanks, keep in mind there are other more important targets than a squad of entrenched troops.

If your opponent is pumping all their buffs into a single squad of objective camping goats, you've already got the advantage (not that any TSons player with a functioning cognitive organ is that stupid). Mobility and range are lethal weapons in the grav-tank era. Destroy the squishy gits without protection.

Sterling191 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

You usually don't have both and that's the Crux of the problem.

The list in question explicitly brings both.

No, it doesn't. It has 3 HQ's on Bikes. That's not what is normally meant by 'bringing Jetbikes'. That's like taking 1800 points of Wulfen and a single lascannon then saying you 'brought ranged anti-tank'. It's not in enough numbers to really be a leg of the list on its own.

3 HQ's only gets you 36 shots in Rapid Fire range. That's about 12 dead Guardsmen (in cover or with some buff) per round of shooting. Not a lot.

Audustum wrote:

3 HQ's only gets you 36 shots in Rapid Fire range. That's about 12 dead Guardsmen (in cover or with some buff) per round of shooting. Not a lot.

Which is more than enough to uproot a GEQ squad or two huddling on an objective. And thats before getting into the souped up HBs that the Caladii will be firing.

We're not talking about wiping out 90 genestealers here. We're talking about precision strikes to nab objectives.

Sterling191 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

3 HQ's only gets you 36 shots in Rapid Fire range. That's about 12 dead Guardsmen (in cover or with some buff) per round of shooting. Not a lot.

Which is more than enough to uproot a GEQ squad or two huddling on an objective. And thats before getting into the souped up HBs that the Caladii will be firing.

We're not talking about wiping out 90 genestealers here. We're talking about precision strikes to nab objectives.

Uh, actually, in a competitive setting, tons of Gensstealers (or the Chaos equivalent, 60+ Plaguebearers) is what we're starting to see. You should actually be thinking about "how will I deal with that". Even the Imperial Guard/Castellan lists took 80 Infantry.

Audustum wrote:


Uh, actually, in a competitive setting, tons of Gensstealers (or the Chaos equivalent, 60+ Plaguebearers) is what we're starting to see. You should actually be thinking about "how will I deal with that". Even the Imperial Guard/Castellan lists took 80 Infantry.

Please go back and read the specific context that Fezzik was kvetching about. You're doing some very significant goalpost moving here.

Sterling191 wrote:

Audustum wrote:


Uh, actually, in a competitive setting, tons of Gensstealers (or the Chaos equivalent, 60+ Plaguebearers) is what we're starting to see. You should actually be thinking about "how will I deal with that". Even the Imperial Guard/Castellan lists took 80 Infantry.

Please go back and read the specific context that Fezzik was kvetching about. You're doing some very significant goalpost moving here.

I'm afraid it appears to be you who has misinterpreted the context. Fezzik was discussing how the list would have a "hard time against an army designed to hold objectives" and that "Horde armies can really dictate the fight against us, which makes it difficult to play anything but wipe the board". If you've interpreted that as only being about CasualHammer, than you're grossly misreading it. It did not specify and is thus open to both.

So my point remains. 3 Hurricane Bolters is nowhere near enough when dealing with real hordes. Custodes do have a hard time holding objectives against them. I'll add now that I also agree that they can really dictate the fight against us.

I think there's a typo in the Forgeworld Custodes rules. The Caladius Grav-Tank has a Twin Heavy Blaze Cannon where the burst mode has a profile that's double the shots of a normal Blaze Cannon, but the Beam profile does not. It should be Heavy 4, especially if it's 100 points!

^^^

Agreed it should be for that cost, but I don't think its a typo. This is what they intended.

If you look at the single Heavy Blaze Cannon available on the Orion Dropship, its heavy 1, even though the burst profile is 6 shots.

So it would have to be 2 typos which happen to line up with each other.

-----------

Out of interest, would people use the Blaze cannons if they were Heavy 4 instead of 2? Same firepower as a Telemon for cheaper?

Considering its a paltry 3 Damage I'm guessing it must be a typo. Either give us more shots or make it D6 damage!

So the best tactic I have found for holding off hordes and keeping objs is actually Guardian Squads. If I can shoot, charge, and fight, then I usually deplete the squad enough so that it's a toss up as to who's got obj sec. It it's something rediculous like I previously stated;

15 Blood letters with psychic buffs backed by a lord of change and a daemon prince, well, things get really ugly. I either have to put all my shots from multiple units into the squad, or I need to just go the other way and hope they don't score more than 3 points off it.

The main focus of Custodes should often be: How can I kill their warlord as quickly as possible. The whole army is really built with that goal. The pile in rule, the heroic interventions, the strats, etc. So my primary targets are usually:

1. Warlord
2. Characters of Importance (HQ, Assasins, Buffers, psychers)
3. Tanks/Heavy Support
4. Objectives
5. Chaff

Granted I don't win many mission by objectives, but I can usually shut down the meta game pretty early and then it's a battle of attrition to take the game in the next 3 rounds.

You can't buff Bloodletters with Psychic Powers.

Nope, you are right, I have been saying Tzangors this whole time and just decided to mess up the streak. Thank you for catching me.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So the best tactic I have found for holding off hordes and keeping objs is actually Guardian Squads. If I can shoot, charge, and fight, then I usually deplete the squad enough so that it's a toss up as to who's got obj sec. It it's something rediculous like I previously stated;

15 Blood letters with psychic buffs backed by a lord of change and a daemon prince, well, things get really ugly. I either have to put all my shots from multiple units into the squad, or I need to just go the other way and hope they don't score more than 3 points off it.

The main focus of Custodes should often be: How can I kill their warlord as quickly as possible. The whole army is really built with that goal. The pile in rule, the heroic interventions, the strats, etc. So my primary targets are usually:

1. Warlord
2. Characters of Importance (HQ, Assasins, Buffers, psychers)
3. Tanks/Heavy Support
4. Objectives
5. Chaff

Granted I don't win many mission by objectives, but I can usually shut down the meta game pretty early and then it's a battle of attrition to take the game in the next 3 rounds.

Out of curiously, what missions do you play?

 Valkyrie wrote:
Considering its a paltry 3 Damage I'm guessing it must be a typo. Either give us more shots or make it D6 damage!

Dunno. I would take D3 any day over Dd6. Average is only 0.5 less but reliability is soooo much better. It's even better when you are shooting anything with 3 or 6 wounds. Even vs 2 wound targets it's better. You'll never even average the 3.5 vs those(2.5 wound vs W3 target actually. 1.83 vs 2 wound targets).

A little frustrated golden bros.

So far my Vertus Praetors have thoroughly underwhelmed. I'm getting them into combat relatively unscathed through good positioning, but my Auric Aquilis biker captain keeps failing charges, and I had 5 bikes on the charge do a measly 5 wounds on Breyarth Ashmantle after using their shooting to clear away his protective screen. Just completely, utterly whiffed.

How the hell do you use these things? The way everyone talks about them they're fantastic...

What's Ashmantle's stats?

Because I'm pretty sure he's a T8 2+/4++/4+++ monster of a dreadnought.

Okay, I was wrong-he's only got a 5++, but is TOUGHNESS FLIPPING 9!

So, 5 Vertus Praetors do, on average...

20 swings
175/9 hits (assuming a captain in range)
1,925/324 wounds
1,925/486 unsaved
Multiply by 2 for d3 damage, but divide by 2 for 4+ FNP. Total damage:
3.96
Corrected math in next post.

Of course, people with axes do WORSE-they're S8 vs T9, so still wounding on 5s; only AP-2 instead of AP-3; and don't reroll wounds

So, your issue is not that bikes are bad, it's that Ashmantle kicks all the butt. But for 400 points, he SHOULD-that's more than a Knight Gallant!

 JNAProductions wrote:
What's Ashmantle's stats?

Because I'm pretty sure he's a T8 2+/4++/4+++ monster of a dreadnought.

Okay, I was wrong-he's only got a 5++, but is TOUGHNESS FLIPPING 9!

So, 5 Vertus Praetors do, on average...

20 swings
175/9 hits (assuming a captain in range)
1,925/324 wounds
1,925/486 unsaved
Multiply by 2 for d3 damage, but divide by 2 for 4+ FNP. Total damage:
3.96

Of course, people with axes do WORSE-they're S8 vs T9, so still wounding on 5s; only AP-2 instead of AP-3; and don't reroll wounds

So, your issue is not that bikes are bad, it's that Ashmantle kicks all the butt. But for 400 points, he SHOULD-that's more than a Knight Gallant!

As the gentleman I played ran him, he had a 2+, 5++/4+++, and I used avenge the fallen after losing a bike to overwatch giving me 25 attacks. They had rerolls but my captain failed to join them.
But its still 5+ to wound, re-rolling. I've been sitting here all evening and rolling 20-25 wounds before FNP, which ought to be enough to drop him if he passed 50% of his FNP. I only managed 12. He saved 7/12 on FNP. Breyarth then murdered the squad over the next turn before I could pull out.
Does that math jive? That seems really off?

Feth, you're right.

I did 11/36 for wounds-that's a 6 with rerolls, not a 5+. 5+ rerolling is 5/9.

Correct math incoming.

20 swings
175/9 hits
875/81 wounds
1,750/243 unsaved
7.20 damage

With the extra 5 attacks from your strat, that increases damage to 9 on average.

In other words, you SHOULD'VE killed him, unless your dice were cold. Which happens.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
What's Ashmantle's stats?

Because I'm pretty sure he's a T8 2+/4++/4+++ monster of a dreadnought.

Okay, I was wrong-he's only got a 5++, but is TOUGHNESS FLIPPING 9!

So, 5 Vertus Praetors do, on average...

20 swings
175/9 hits (assuming a captain in range)
1,925/324 wounds
1,925/486 unsaved
Multiply by 2 for d3 damage, but divide by 2 for 4+ FNP. Total damage:
3.96

Of course, people with axes do WORSE-they're S8 vs T9, so still wounding on 5s; only AP-2 instead of AP-3; and don't reroll wounds

So, your issue is not that bikes are bad, it's that Ashmantle kicks all the butt. But for 400 points, he SHOULD-that's more than a Knight Gallant!

As the gentleman I played ran him, he had a 2+, 5++/4+++, and I used avenge the fallen after losing a bike to overwatch giving me 25 attacks. They had rerolls but my captain failed to join them.
But its still 5+ to wound, re-rolling. I've been sitting here all evening and rolling 20-25 wounds before FNP, which ought to be enough to drop him if he passed 50% of his FNP. I only managed 12. He saved 7/12 on FNP. Breyarth then murdered the squad over the next turn before I could pull out.
Does that math jive? That seems really off?

Wait, maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you rolling FNP against WOUNDS or against DAMAGE? Because it should be the latter. If I wound you with a lance, I roll 1D3 for damage. The result of that 1D3 is what you roll FNP against. So if I got a 2, you make 32 FNP rolls, one for each point of damage. 1 wound, 2 damage. 1 invulnerable save, 2 FNP rolls.

Audustum wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
What's Ashmantle's stats?

Because I'm pretty sure he's a T8 2+/4++/4+++ monster of a dreadnought.

Okay, I was wrong-he's only got a 5++, but is TOUGHNESS FLIPPING 9!

So, 5 Vertus Praetors do, on average...

20 swings
175/9 hits (assuming a captain in range)
1,925/324 wounds
1,925/486 unsaved
Multiply by 2 for d3 damage, but divide by 2 for 4+ FNP. Total damage:
3.96

Of course, people with axes do WORSE-they're S8 vs T9, so still wounding on 5s; only AP-2 instead of AP-3; and don't reroll wounds

So, your issue is not that bikes are bad, it's that Ashmantle kicks all the butt. But for 400 points, he SHOULD-that's more than a Knight Gallant!

As the gentleman I played ran him, he had a 2+, 5++/4+++, and I used avenge the fallen after losing a bike to overwatch giving me 25 attacks. They had rerolls but my captain failed to join them.
But its still 5+ to wound, re-rolling. I've been sitting here all evening and rolling 20-25 wounds before FNP, which ought to be enough to drop him if he passed 50% of his FNP. I only managed 12. He saved 7/12 on FNP. Breyarth then murdered the squad over the next turn before I could pull out.
Does that math jive? That seems really off?

Wait, maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you rolling FNP against WOUNDS or against DAMAGE? Because it should be the latter. If I wound you with a lance, I roll 1D3 for damage. The result of that 1D3 is what you roll FNP against. So if I got a 2, you make 32 FNP rolls, one for each point of damage. 1 wound, 2 damage. 1 invulnerable save, 2 FNP rolls.

Yeah, sure, 20-25 damage from the damage. Still doesn't change the fact that the damn bikes whiffed horribly. i played it right. Just used the wrong word in the post.

I will admit, bikes are big shiney models with one express purpose. Charging and grabbing points. I've only played a scant 6-8 games with my custodes, but every time the Bkes don't earn their points back unless the opponent is being a doofus.

Strengths: hard to kill, great shooting, awesome charging, great movement, OBJSEC, and fly for locking up flyers.

Weakness: Every model lost hurts BADLY, high cost, big target on their back.

That being said, I can't justify taking the bikes in the numbers required to make them useful. You either take multiple squads, or 1 big squad of like 9. Then you are sitting around 1k points for 9 models. And the rest of the game plan becomes moot. Also, you kinda become THAT GUY.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Feth, you're right.

I did 11/36 for wounds-that's a 6 with rerolls, not a 5+. 5+ rerolling is 5/9.

Correct math incoming.

20 swings
175/9 hits
875/81 wounds
1,750/243 unsaved
7.20 damage

With the extra 5 attacks from your strat, that increases damage to 9 on average.

In other words, you SHOULD'VE killed him, unless your dice were cold. Which happens.

The bikes have about a 65% chance to kill Ashmantle, so it's not so unlikely that he survives.

Seems to me that a Telemon would deal with Ashmantle pretty well. How much does Ashmantle cost?

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Seems to me that a Telemon would deal with Ashmantle pretty well. How much does Ashmantle cost?

Around 400 pts and is also slow as hell.

tneva82 wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Seems to me that a Telemon would deal with Ashmantle pretty well. How much does Ashmantle cost?

Around 400 pts and is also slow as hell.

And his max range is 8". Just run around him.

 _SeeD_ wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Seems to me that a Telemon would deal with Ashmantle pretty well. How much does Ashmantle cost?

Around 400 pts and is also slow as hell.

And his max range is 8". Just run around him.

Yep. Don't do what I did when I first faced it with orks I had not bothered to check stats beforehand so "bit" underestimated his toughness so by the time I realized my mistake I was pretty much committed to HAVE to take it out. Should have just skitted around and then feed unit of boyz to it. Overwatch would hurt but then it would take too long to take down boyz to really matter.

The thing is designed to soak up damage. However it's speed and threat range isn't that impressive. Okay custodians are better target than horde but due to it's range just keep distance, pummel rest of army and don't focus too much resources early up taking it out. That's basically what he wants you to do.

So Custodes just won BAO. Here's the list:

Custodes Spearhead
HQ: Trajann
Elite: 3 Aquillons with Flamers and Gauntlets
Heavy: Telemon with 2 Arachnus
Heavy: Caladius with Accelerator
Heavy: Caladius with Accelerator

Catachan Battalion
HQ: Company Commander
HQ: Company Commander
Troops: 3x8 with 1 Mortar each
Heavy: Wyvern (Heavy Bolter)
Heavy: Basilisk (Heavy Bolter)

Graia Battalion
HQ: Enginseer
HQ: Enginseer
Troops: 3x Rangers

-2CP and 85 points saved for an assassin

This one also made the final bracket. Here it is:

Graia Battalion
HQ: Enginseer
HQ: Enginseer
Troops: 3x Rangers

Custodes Outrider
HQ: Jetbike Captain (Hurricane Bolter)
Elite: 5x Aquilon Terminators with Bolters and Gauntlets
Vexillus Praetor: Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica (Warlord)
Fast Attack: 5x Jetbikes (Hurricane Bolters)
Fast Attack: 5x Jetbikes (Hurricane Bolters)
Fast Attack: 3x Jetbikes (Hurricane Bolters)

Custodes Spearhead
HQ: Trajann
Elite: 3 Aquillons with Flamers and Gauntlets
Heavy: Telemon with 2 Arachnus
Heavy: Caladius with Accelerator
Heavy: Caladius with Accelerator

Catachan Battalion
HQ: Company Commander
HQ: Company Commander
Troops: 3x8 with 1 Mortar each
Heavy: Wyvern (Heavy Bolter)
Heavy: Basilisk (Heavy Bolter)

Graia Battalion
HQ: Enginseer
HQ: Enginseer
Troops: 3x Rangers

-2CP and 85 points saved for an assassin

No bikes? Interesting. It kind of confirms my suspicions about the quality of jetbikes. They are good on paper.

Look at the other list, the one with 14 jetbikes...that one made it to the top 8 too (though I’m really not sure how). Jetbikes are good, it’s just that in a shooting game our tanks are better and in an imperium list so are guardsmen. In Geoff’s list the only potential place for bikes is to replace the terminators, but the Aquilons provide an otherwise lacking heavy melee in that list and Geoff has said before he’s concerned about bikes dealing with ITC magic boxes. And you don’t need hurricane bolters with a vigilus wyvren and a bunch of mortars.
I wasn’t too worried about them before this event, but now I’m legitimately worried our FW stuff is going to take a heavy nerf. It’s just so brutally efficient.
Other pure lists: Bridger Hahn went 5-1 with almost the same list I run and Colin came in 24th with an Orion Dropship. Congrats guys!