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I played a couple of games vs my friends new tyranids. He's just starting them and his army was built around the idea of being fun and "tricksy" but still powerful enough to go take to a local tourney. We mostly play as a gaming group but the standard of play here is fairly high.

He was running at about 1850

Swarmlord + 2 guard
Parasite of mortrex

Doom of Malantai in a spore
Deathleaper
3 x Hive Guard

10 x termagants
10 x termagants
tervigon - catalyst and dominate
9 stealers + broodlord (not sure on the numbers for his troops) with poison

20 gargoyles with poison

Trygon


I was running

3 x 24 strong shoota mobs with big shootas and a pk/bp nob
20 grotz, 2 herders
biker boss
battlewagon, deffrolla, armour plates, rpj, 3 x bigshoota
Inside 5 nobz + painboy, bosspole, waaagh banner, 2 x klawz everyone has cybork
KFF mek
trukk with ram with 12 trukkboyz and pk/bp nob
6 bikers pk/bp nob
10 lootaz
rokkit buggy
rokkit buggy

Which is not the most powerful or focused list ever but it does alright.

As I say we played 2 games and I was pleased with the results. I pulled out a draw in the first game (capture and control) even though he had accidetally added a 4th elite choice and an extra 150pts in the form of some ymgarl stealers (who did very little except get killed by lootaz in assault ). In the second game he beat me by a single kp and had my battlewagon not immobilised itself on a wall it would have certainly smushed the deathleaper with its deffrolla and been out of assault range of a tervigon which would have switched that loss to a win by 1. So I'm confident that I can beat the army and win games against my friend.

But holy gakking feth guys have you seen the swarmlord! This thing is an absolute beast.

In game one due to my lack of knowledge of the bonesabre rules I made the mistake of throwing my nobz against him. With his 5 attacks he killed 5 nobz. 250pts gone in one round of cc. In the second game he munched through 2 of my shootamobz and my bikes nigh on single handedly netting him about 600pts worth of dead orks for the cost of 2 wounds! 2!! On a 5 wound model.

Worse not only is he the killiest thing that ever was but he acts as a fantastic force multiplier too. His ability to grant preferred enemy is just beastly, particularly when teamed with gargoyles. That combo accounted for 7 dead trukkboyz on the turn that I was the one charging. That's 20 models with only 1 attack each killing 7 orks dead before any got to swing. OW!

And the ability to make a squad ws1 bs1 isn't too crippling vs say marines or an army that can MSU but when the main body of your force is mobs that are 24 strong it can really hurt.

Clearly this thing needs to die. I have 2 turns whilst it trundles across the board where my force is safe from his direct attentions but during those turns I've got the uber gargoyles hitting my forces that have been reduced to ws1. It needs to die.

But how?

I can't assault it. The combo of init 6, bonesabres, T6 and ws9 vs ws1 means that any unit I throw against him in cc is dead. Often before they get to strike. Throw in FnP from the nearby tervigon and my chances in assault are laughable.

Similarly shooting it would seem to be the key but that won't work either. My main strategy for this kind of stuff is pour dakka into it from shootaboyz. But math wise that is equally laughable thanks to 3+, FnP, T6 and his 2 friends. Maybe if I can get all 3 mobz in range at once.
Lootaz? Yeah except they get a grand total of 1 turn to fire in before the doom of malantai eats their souls.

Spam rokkitz? Seems like the best idea and the one I might try. With the rise of mech and so many middling beasties in the new nid dex I think I need more rokkits. But where to get them?

Lastly the only thing I can think of is ghazkull. With a 2++, T5, immune to instant death and 7 str 10 attacks he seems like he'd have the best posible chance of surviving the bonsabres long enough to actually pull the swarmlord down. Anyone care to run the math and see how ghazzy would fair? Maybe paired up with my nobz as described above (who would basically be bonsabre bait).

Throw grots at them. It occupies them, and the runtherd makes them lose attacks.

All right lets try that solution.

Swarmlord and 2 guard.

Herders knock off 2 swarmy attacks.

Stormlord hits with probably all 3 attacks (assuming preferred enemy) and kills with probably all 3 so 3 dead grots.

Guard have 6 str 5 bone sword attacks hitting on 3's with a re-roll probably 5 will hit, 4 dead grots so 7 in total.

Herders get 6 attacks hitting on 5's so 2 hits needing 6's to wound probably no wounds especially once we factor in 3+ save and FnP.

Grots then get 13 attacks hitting on 5's so 2-3 hits needing 6's to wound (IIRC I can't actually remember if str 2 can hurt T6) which again with armour and FnP means likely no wounds at all on guard or swarmlord.

Grots take a ld check at ld 0 and almost certainly break and die.

Swarmlord gets 80pts to his tally and gets to be 6" plus d6" closer than he was lst turn.

Now of course next turn I can counter attack with all the boyz that were standing behind those grotz and ordinarily this would ruin whatever killed the grotz. That's a fairly standard ork strategy. But the swarmlord laughs at 24 shoota boyz, hell he finds 48 shoota boyz quite hilarious.


So again, I know I can outplay the nid guy and just avoid swarmy but how do I kill him?

Actually, Ghazkull wouldn't work, the swarmlord does not inflict "instant death" as perceived by the rulebook (Double Toughness). That's what I heard.

Deffrolla.

Gavo wrote:Actually, Ghazkull wouldn't work, the swarmlord does not inflict "instant death" as perceived by the rulebook (Double Toughness). That's what I heard.

The exact wording of ghazzies power is "immune to instant death" (IIRC)

The exact wording of bone sabres is "inflicts instant death".

No mention of double toughness whatsoever in either character's rules.

The Bonesabre CAUSES ID much like a Force weapon. Ghaz is IMMUNE to ID therefore he can't be killed instantly by anything. Codexs override the BRB in case of conflict

Ghaz should ba able to go toe to toe with the Swarmlord. when in his Waaagh he has a 2++ save so he will be difficult for the Slord to wound in the first round. have some PK nobs along to put some additional wounds

PKs will not allow Armor or FNP saves against them.

Grey Templar wrote:The Bonesabre CAUSES ID much like a Force weapon. Ghaz is IMMUNE to ID therefore he can't be killed instantly by anything. Codexs override the BRB in case of conflict.

Whoops, misinterpretation of the rules. I though Force Weapons completely overruled that, as they cause a wound, then kill.

Gavo wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Bonesabre CAUSES ID much like a Force weapon. Ghaz is IMMUNE to ID therefore he can't be killed instantly by anything. Codexs override the BRB in case of conflict.

Whoops, misinterpretation of the rules. I though Force Weapons completely overruled that, as they cause a wound, then kill.

in 4th - maybe yes , 4th after FAQ - no, 5th - no .




to the topic, I think you can try 2 SAG ,AP2 is nice ,most important you can hope for a double 6 , will be really funny then , double 5 will still be amusing though

I would check on the swarmlords rules. While yes he can grant 1 unit a USR within 18 inches, it only lasts for the tyranid players turn IIRC. Thus, if you are the one charging then he wont have preferred enemy. This alone makes the swarmlord not a must take.

This is why the swarmlord + a regular tyrant with old adversary is great--old adversary is always on to everything within 6 inches. Gets pricy, but then again the trygon can be changed for the tyrant very easily, and the parasite's points can go towards tyrant guard.

As a question of curiosity, how did the parasite do? How many ripper swarm bases did he generate, and how did the ripper swarms do in the games?

Not great. It charged into me in the first game with the gargoyles but I forget which squad he charged. The gargoyles did some nasty killing and he managed a few wounds. I passed all but 1 toughness check and he made 5 bases which I killed with lootaz in one volley.

In the second game it broke off from gargoyles to charge my warboss who was alone against 5 termagants. He flubbed all his rolls but astonishingly the 5 termagants managed to take the 2 wounds off my warboss before he could kill the parasite. The parasite then joined the swarmlord's squad and charged into first my grotz and then my boyz making a few bases before I crushed him with a pk for an easy kill point. Those bases didn't really get to do much as the game ended shortly afterwards and had I had any free squads not being killed by the swarmlord nearby they would have just been easy KP's.

I believe he's mostly in the list to give cheap synapse to the gargoyles and trygon, particularly the gargoyles as if they decide to lurk its a real wasted opportunity.

try shooting it to death?
kmb/tons of lootas/those two guns on the wagons that i forgot the names off.
Rokkits would probably work to. Anything that will get rid of that armour save and hit on roughly a 2+

On a side note i noticed you had two rokkit buggies in your list. How do those do for you?

In the first game they did just fine, they dropped a few wounds off the swarmlord/his bodyguard, took a few off the tervigon and took a few off the trygon prior to the nobz charging it and killing it in one round. Then the hiveguard immobilised 1 (for ymgarls to eat) and killed the other. Had I focused fire on the swarmlord all game it may have been enough for the boyz to drop it but I made the decision to kill the trygon (I'm guessing wise) and later to try and kill the tervigon to make it explode and kill the grots holding his objective (and then they got killed by my opponent who wisely chose to prevent this strategy)

In the 2nd game they were utterly pathetic. 1 buggy hit and rolled a 1 to wound 5 times in a row! the other one just completely failed to hit 10 times in a row.

And the swarmlord's USR buffs only work in his turn do they? Can somebody confirm that because if so that would have massively swung the latter game in my favour as his gargoyles wouldn't have utterly owned my trukkboyz.

I had terrible luck in that game all round actually, had my warboss on bike not being killed by 10 termagants (well 5at the time they killed him), had my deffrolla not immobilised itself on a wall, had my trukkboyz not been eaten by gargoyles, had my lootaz not failed a doom check by rolling 15 and had my rokkits actually wounded something I would have probably won the game. In fact if any one of these things had gone my way (particularly the deffrolla) I would have probably won the game.

Sounds like your strategy is fine its just you had an unlucky second game. Maybe you should play out a few more times and then try out different units

Take a old zogwort, nothing like turning a point-sink like a swarmlord into a useless squig. if you haven't got the points then take a warphead and hope for some good rolls on the table, hell even zogwort might end up doing something before he gets the chance to squigify it!

What about a mob of kanz with KMB? no 'gets hot' worries and launching 3 of them a turn is bound to cause hurt, or perhaps koptas with the same, i know you have to deal with gets hot but they are a bit faster than kanz.

Zogwort only affects Independent Characters.

I would say that you should consider a unit of Flashgitz with the works to shoot the Swarmlord up, or just hit it with a 30 strong mob of Ork Slugga Boyz.

In terms of what you have available, shoot it with the Bikes, the Lootas, and the the Shootas. Surround the Lootas with the Grotz so that they get a cover save against the Doom of Malantai and the Trygon if it comes up.

Lootas are a good way to soften up the swarmlord.
Tankbustas work also, the swarmlord has no armor save or invo against ap3 ranged attacks.

Mega Nobs and/or nob bikers are going to have a hard time with the swarmlord. WS9 means they hit on a 5+, and it has a 4+ invo against CC attacks. Simple mathhammer shows 1/3 of all attacks hit, 5/6 wound, and 1/2 get past the invo. Mathhammer comes to 5/36 power fist attacks will cause a wound, that's a grim number when you take into account the swarmlord has initiative over nobs and will insta kill them. Ghazhkull only adds 6 attacks on a charge that hit on a 4+ and get past the invo on a 4+ Math hammer= 5/24 power fist attacks from ghazghkull will cause a wound.

I would stick with lootas or tankbustas against the swarm lord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:Zogwort only affects Independent Characters.

I would say that you should consider a unit of Flashgitz with the works to shoot the Swarmlord up, or just hit it with a 30 strong mob of Ork Slugga Boyz.

In terms of what you have available, shoot it with the Bikes, the Lootas, and the the Shootas. Surround the Lootas with the Grotz so that they get a cover save against the Doom of Malantai and the Trygon if it comes up.

Even if zoggy could affect the swarmlord he would probably have to deal with the shadow of the warp.

Seems like rokkit/KMB spam is the best way, as even Dreads would have an impossible time wounding the damn thing.

One thing to remember is that it can only paroxysm the unit it's charging and it has limited paroxysm range.

A screen of grots makes paroxysm useless as it can paroxysm them (doesn't change anything) and charge them and then most likely get stuck or it can paroxysm the boyz behind only to find that it's open to shooting again.

Another tactic would be after it eats up the grot mob you multicharge it along with lots of gaunts, rippers etc and force wounds via no retreat. If you only put 2 or 3 boyz in it's attack range then they won't get that high a kill count while the rest of the mob eats rippers and gaunts.

I'd have the Orks take a Looted Swarmlord and hit it with that.

Alternatively, I don't see why you can't take a trukk full of Nobz with PKs - give them a Painboy and 'Eavy Armour and Cybork Bodies. It is gonna COST, but oh, it's gonna be worth it just to see the look on his face. Who cares if you're only hitting on 5+? I mean, how many wounds can it possibly have?

Sounds like you've been focusing on the swarmlord. I'd suggestignoring him for the first part of the battle and instead focus in on his supporting cast. Maybe try and bait him with those rokkit buggies or something. Or let him eat a shoota mob. In any case, you should be focusing your killy stuff on the stuff in his army that give benefits to the swarmlord or engage those who receive buffs from him in a way in which they cannot use them.

You say that the gargoyles get better from his Preferred Enemy buff? Kill them with shooting.

You say that the tervigon make it really hard for your boyz to hurt him with anything less than a klaw - kill the tervigon.

I'd actually aim those nobz right at the tervigon and beat him to death (using your lootaz and shootaz to clear aside any intervening termagants that might be blocking the charge. With him gone, the rest of your army will be free to focus on the swarmlord - who, now bereft of his precious FNP, will die to massed attacks/shots.

When I faced the swarmlord I threw a boyz mob at him and then charged his hive guard with my nobs while the swarmlord was engaged killing boyz with no armor anyway with his instant death attacks. Murdering all the hive guard and the warriors who were also part of this multi-unit combat put a mess of no retreat! wounds on the swarmlord, who I then finished off in assault with the nobs plus the PK nob from my boyz after he murdered my warboss. However, my mob was 30 boyz strong and had 8 nobs. You will find that you have better results against him if you field your boyz mobs maxed out. Also, have the lootas/deffkoptas shoot the crap out of either the tervigon or the swarmlord's unit, whichever doesn't have feel no pain that round.

I second the idea of swamping the swarmlord with boyz while your nobs go make a mess out of the tervigon.

Nurglitch wrote:Zogwort only affects Independent Characters.

I would say that you should consider a unit of Flashgitz with the works to shoot the Swarmlord up, or just hit it with a 30 strong mob of Ork Slugga Boyz.

In terms of what you have available, shoot it with the Bikes, the Lootas, and the the Shootas. Surround the Lootas with the Grotz so that they get a cover save against the Doom of Malantai and the Trygon if it comes up.

Math-hammering the 30 strong slugga boyz, best case scenario so assuming they get the charge and no preferred enemy (aparently he can't have it when I charge) or FnP.

30 pistols shots, 10 hit, 1.6 wound, 0.53 chance of failing a save so probably no wounds done in shooting.

4 swarmlord attacks 2.7 hit, 2.25 wound, 2.25 dead orks.
6 tyant guard attacks, 4 hit, 2.7 wound another 2.7 dead orks.

Splitting the difference call it 5 dead orks.

24 sluggaz get 96 attacks if we can get them all into cc.
32 hit, 5.3 wound, 1.7 wounds on the unit but lets round up and say we killed a tyrant guard, yay! (this will work out less as some boyz will HAVE to allocate attacks to the swarmlord and actually with split attacks you'd be lucky to do 1 wound let alone 2)
4 pk attacks at the tyrant guard since we're trying to kill something at least. 2 hits, 1.7 wounds as no save allowed.

you might wipe out the tyrant guard or have them left with 1 wound remaining, either way you lose by combat by 1 and that's a best case scenario, a full squad on the charge and he doesn't have FnP. Next turn you have less strength and less attacks and will be lucky to do 1 wound. You might tie up the swarmlord with a big boyz unit (which is pretty much how I've been dealing with him, letting him slowly whittle down big fearless mobs whilst the rest of my army kills the rets of his army) but you ain't killing him.


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O'shovah wrote:One thing to remember is that it can only paroxysm the unit it's charging and it has limited paroxysm range.

A screen of grots makes paroxysm useless as it can paroxysm them (doesn't change anything) and charge them and then most likely get stuck or it can paroxysm the boyz behind only to find that it's open to shooting again.

Another tactic would be after it eats up the grot mob you multicharge it along with lots of gaunts, rippers etc and force wounds via no retreat. If you only put 2 or 3 boyz in it's attack range then they won't get that high a kill count while the rest of the mob eats rippers and gaunts.

I'll have to remember that but IIRC he didn't try and paroxsysm anything until he had already eaten the grotz.

Annoyingly my grotz held with insane courage when they got charged so he got to paroxsysm and charge into my boyz the turn after rather than me shoot and charge him.

I'll have to try that multi-charge trick and see if I can force no retreat saves, It'll need FnP to be nullified to work effectively though. I can't remember any situations where I could have pulled it off in the last 2 games but he does keep the tervigon, guard and swarmlord close together so after the tervigon ahs made some termagants I might be able to pull off that trick.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Solorg wrote:I'd have the Orks take a Looted Swarmlord and hit it with that.

Alternatively, I don't see why you can't take a trukk full of Nobz with PKs - give them a Painboy and 'Eavy Armour and Cybork Bodies. It is gonna COST, but oh, it's gonna be worth it just to see the look on his face. Who cares if you're only hitting on 5+? I mean, how many wounds can it possibly have?

Good lord that sounds like the worst plan ever.

Anything, literally anything but nobz is better. Nobz are the worst thing you can throw at him.

He strikes first, ignores your armour and FnP and forces you to re-roll succesful cybork saves and any wound he does kills a nob outright.

Lets try 8 nobz all with pks, eavy armour and cybork like you suggested and a mad dok, I'll also add waaagh banner. That's a 505pt unit. Assuming the nobz charge.

4 attacks from the swarmlord, 2.7 hit, 2.5 wound, 0.7 chance of saving a wound call it 3 dead nobz.
6 attacks from the tyrant guard, 3 hit, 2 wounds, 0.6 chance of saving a wound, he'll probably pass his ld check call it 1 wound.

Dok gets 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1 wounds, is saved.

4 nobz left allocate attacks evenly.
vs tguard, 8 attacks, 4 hit, 3.4 wound, 3 wounds on the tguard.
vs swarmlord, 12 attacks, 6 hit, 5 wound, 2.5 wounds on the swarmlord.

Drawn combat with odds of getting an extra wound slightly in the nobz favour.
Next turn he kills them all.


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Droofus wrote:Sounds like you've been focusing on the swarmlord. I'd suggestignoring him for the first part of the battle and instead focus in on his supporting cast. Maybe try and bait him with those rokkit buggies or something. Or let him eat a shoota mob. In any case, you should be focusing your killy stuff on the stuff in his army that give benefits to the swarmlord or engage those who receive buffs from him in a way in which they cannot use them.

You say that the gargoyles get better from his Preferred Enemy buff? Kill them with shooting.

You say that the tervigon make it really hard for your boyz to hurt him with anything less than a klaw - kill the tervigon.

I'd actually aim those nobz right at the tervigon and beat him to death (using your lootaz and shootaz to clear aside any intervening termagants that might be blocking the charge. With him gone, the rest of your army will be free to focus on the swarmlord - who, now bereft of his precious FNP, will die to massed attacks/shots.

Oh I haven't been. As I say I think I can beat my friend's army. The 1st game was a draw at a pts disadvantage and the 2nd game was a loss by only 1 kp and there were several instance of bad luck where I could have easily turned that into a win (immobilising the deffrolla that was about to squish deathleaper being the most obvious). I agree that I can ignore him for a turn or 2, he's really slow. In the 1st game (dawn of war) he only got to charge in turn 5, in the 2nd game he managed a turn 2 charge against my bikes and then got bogged down by grotz and boyz until the game ended (but still managed to account for about 600pts of orkz).

I can ignore his direct killing power fairly easily but not his force multiplier abilities such as preferred enemy, +1 to reserves and the ability to re-roll outflank side.

So the general consensus is to continue to ignore it and chuck rokkits at it whenever the opportunity arises?

Killing the tervigon is easier said than done too. He tends to hide with swarmy in front of him and a ring of gants behind him making a direct assault impossible (unless you've got speed and can clear the gants away). Plus then my nobz get eaten by swarmy in retliation. Instead I had my nobz kill the trygon as priority A in both games folowed by charging whatever was in range of them really.

It's a death star unit. Take away it's support and/or deny it the possibility to hit a valuable enough target. Since 12" is the "danger close" of a swarmlord you should be able to get 3 turns of shooting at it before it turns critical. But I do agree it's a tough target.

For a while I considered if this might even be the revival of the shoota mob. Lets see: 1 failed FnP = 2 failed saves = 6 wounds = 36 hits = 108 shots = 54 shoota boys. Oh, damn, that won't work. Allright then. Lootas: 1 failed fnp = 2 failed saves = 6 wounds = 9 hits = 27 shots = 9-27 lootas. Not impressive either. Damn annoying bug.

schadenfreude wrote:Lootas are a good way to soften up the swarmlord.
Tankbustas work also, the swarmlord has no armor save or invo against ap3 ranged attacks.

Mega Nobs and/or nob bikers are going to have a hard time with the swarmlord. WS9 means they hit on a 5+, and it has a 4+ invo against CC attacks.

Meganobz sure, but who takes a diversified Nob squad without a Waagh! Banner? WS 5 is just too handy, hit a great many things on 3+, and hit even WS 10 on 4+

I keep a squad of burnas in my army now, and it turns into the primary killing unit when I play against tyranids.

A single round of shooting will annihilate all the gargoyles. In assault, they will wipe the floor with your swarm lord - 15 point power weapons; if he kills 5 of them with his 5 attacks, the other 10 burnas will take 30 attacks needing 5+ to hit, 6 to wound, and if you tie them in with a trukk boy mob assaulting....the swarmlord is gonna bite it.

I've got Ghazghkull and a squad of burnas in my army; tyranids don't scare me. The doom is nasty....very nasty, but he's T4 no matter what and can be insta-killed easily enough.

Lootas and Rokkit Buggies, as everyone has said, will do the job.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
you might wipe out the tyrant guard or have them left with 1 wound remaining, either way you lose by combat by 1 and that's a best case scenario, a full squad on the charge and he doesn't have FnP. Next turn you have less strength and less attacks and will be lucky to do 1 wound. You might tie up the swarmlord with a big boyz unit (which is pretty much how I've been dealing with him, letting him slowly whittle down big fearless mobs whilst the rest of my army kills the rets of his army) but you ain't killing him.

Thing is, the swarmlord alone costs more than a maxed out boyz mob. Swarmlord + 3 tyrant guard costs the same as 2 maxed out boyz mobs. Assault his unit with 2 maxed out boyz mobs and da Orks is winnin, especially since he can only paroxysm one of them, and can't do paroxysm once he's locked in combat, enabling the boyz to hit on 4+ again.

Dashofpepper wrote:I keep a squad of burnas in my army now, and it turns into the primary killing unit when I play against tyranids.

A single round of shooting will annihilate all the gargoyles. In assault, they will wipe the floor with your swarm lord - 15 point power weapons; if he kills 5 of them with his 5 attacks, the other 10 burnas will take 30 attacks needing 5+ to hit, 6 to wound, and if you tie them in with a trukk boy mob assaulting....the swarmlord is gonna bite it.

Uh...that's approx. 10 hits, on average >2 wounds.

Plus there's the Tyrant Guard, who should kill 2-3 themselves, and strike at I4.

I think your best bet is to multi-charge with, say, a trukk boyz squad and a nobz squad. Just make sure the Swarmlord is in contact with the boyz, not the nobz. Swarmlord murders some boyz, Tyrant Guard maybe get a Nob. You get one wound on the big boy with your boyz nob, nobz put a ton of wounds into the tyrant guard. Every 1 of 3 gets put on the Swarmlord, plus he loses his retinue.

Unless, of course, your opponent put boneswords on the tyrant guard. If he does, um...yeah, shoot him.

One last thing: Swarmlord has 4 attacks, not 5.

Culler wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
you might wipe out the tyrant guard or have them left with 1 wound remaining, either way you lose by combat by 1 and that's a best case scenario, a full squad on the charge and he doesn't have FnP. Next turn you have less strength and less attacks and will be lucky to do 1 wound. You might tie up the swarmlord with a big boyz unit (which is pretty much how I've been dealing with him, letting him slowly whittle down big fearless mobs whilst the rest of my army kills the rets of his army) but you ain't killing him.

Thing is, the swarmlord alone costs more than a maxed out boyz mob. Swarmlord + 3 tyrant guard costs the same as 2 maxed out boyz mobs. Assault his unit with 2 maxed out boyz mobs and da Orks is winnin, especially since he can only paroxysm one of them, and can't do paroxysm once he's locked in combat, enabling the boyz to hit on 4+ again.

If you can get 60 orks into assault range of 3 models then my hat is off to you sir.

And the boyz are hitting on 5's regardless vs swarmy as he is WS9.