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In a recent thread about the role of women in 40K, the point was made that women are not allowed/cannot be Space Marines. The question raised by myself and another newbie has so far been unanswered.

Would be grateful for some input as to why SM's are exclusively male please

Thanks in advance.

Because the Emperor and his scientists created geneseed only for males what's the point in having a female space marine,males are stronger,have hardier constitution and other things.

Ok thanks
what is the geneseed
how does this only work for males
is it a chromosone thing or what

Please can we keep the misogyny confined to the realms of 40K - thanks

Read this.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gene-seed
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote: Would be grateful for some input as to why SM's are exclusively male please

Because girls are icky, and thus would not sell.

sisters of battle are the closest thing to female SM. but lacking the genetic benefits and the better gear!

Due to fluff.

There is no reason why female bodies could not undergo the transplantation of geneseeds. Rejection by the immune system is caused by different surface antigens on cells, not their genes.

Male and Female bodies respond to the same hormone treatments -- that is how transexual physical swaps work (along with surgery.)

Kilkrazy wrote:

Male and Female bodies respond to the same hormone treatments -- that is how transexual physical swaps work (along with surgery.)

You...You mean it's not a girl?

Hyenajoe wrote:You...You mean it's not a girl?

Who cares?

The extreme amounts of steroids they feed the SMs would almost completely diminish any feminine features anyway.

It's never been explained in terms of science, but neither have bolters, chainswords, promethium or power swords. The fluff stated reason is that the geneseed is incompatible with many people (fluff refers to many applicants getting rejected at the first screening process) and apparently this group includes all females. Maybe geneseed initially interacts with a sequence on the Y chromosome to kick start the genetic modifications.

There are plenty of femarines.

I thought the SMs had no gender....

But there are more Mamarines.

Manchu wrote:

Hyenajoe wrote:You...You mean it's not a girl?

Who cares?

Agreed.

It's funny because Ass is another word for Donkey!

IvanTih wrote:Read this.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gene-seed
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine

Firstly thanks for the replies chaps and the linkies are much appreciated Ivan!
from the latter:

(SM'S) must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.

okay so the fluffy stuff says that they must be male. But what I now don't understand is how a zygote is deemed male?
The zygote is the initial cell after fertilisation, which lasts about four days before becoming a blastocyst
Determination of gender takes place much later- hence us boys have nipples

so is the fluff flawed or please explain what I missed

No, it's just flawed. Looking for strict adherence to facts in a GW product is often a futile endeavour.

Gwar! wrote:It's funny because Ass is another word for Donkey!

It's even funnier because you wouldn't be using the word ass figuratively in her case.

(Not to be arrogant, but the idea orkmoticon has never ever been used more suitably than in this post.)

If females were given the Gene Seed they would probably end up like this.

@KK: From now on all femarine threads should be about that gurl. Have anymore pics?

Manchu wrote:@KK: From now on all femarine threads should be about that gurl. Have anymore pics?

I'm not into lady bodybuilders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Read this.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gene-seed
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine

Firstly thanks for the replies chaps and the linkies are much appreciated Ivan!
from the latter:

(SM'S) must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.

okay so the fluffy stuff says that they must be male. But what I now don't understand is how a zygote is deemed male?
The zygote is the initial cell after fertilisation, which lasts about four days before becoming a blastocyst
Determination of gender takes place much later- hence us boys have nipples

so is the fluff flawed or please explain what I missed

Okay, going back to the science, basically it is crap to say that there are male zygotes or tissue types.

Sexual differentiation in humans happens at a later stage of development and can be partially reversed. For example, men given female hormones can develop breasts and lactate. Women given male hormones develop exaggerated bone and muscle structure.

There is no scientific basis for saying there could not be female marines. It is a bit of fluff made up by GW to justify there being no female marines. (But remember the two missing primarchs!)

Why the fluff? My assumption is that GW's target market is young teen/tween boys who still think girls are soppy.

On another tack, like other people noted, the immense amount of changes caused by the hormone therapy, brain washing and surgical alterations, makes ideas about SMs being men or women essentially meaningless. They are Space Marines, not men or women.

First on the scientific thing:

Modern scientific understanding of biology is next to useless in analyzing 40k tech. Yes, this is partially because the writers are NOT scientists and don't have any kind of background in biology/physics/etc. But another reason is because the knowledge required to engineer a space marine is thousands of years beyond our current understanding. No we don't know a reason that female space marines would be impossible, but apparently with 30k years on us felt they were. We are like children building sand castles trying to tell structural engineers why skyscrapers are impossible. If the gene seed isn't compatible with females, it isn't. 21st century biology is not a great foundation for understanding why.

Then there is the other very possible scenario. GWs official stance on fluff is actually fairly realistic. It is presented not as omniscient, like in starwars or star trek, but as peoples opinions and propaganda. It is people telling stories, and just because they believe it and remember it that way does not make it true. It may very well be imperial policy, or a widely held belief that women cant be space marines. Some chapters may even believe that. That doesn't make it so.

As has been mentioned, the main difference between men and women is hormones. Men can develop curves and breasts, women can develop broad shoulders, strong bras, and beards. The SM go through such drastic hormone treatments all recruits would look basically the same. Masculine features, little breast tissue, broad shoulders, etc.

The only way to tell the difference would be a genetailia check (or a gene check). And since their suits and the black carapace handle all waste recycling, most likely no one will ever see that part of the body.

You could have two space marines in loincloths of different genders standing next to eachother, and you would not be able to tell if one was female until you pulled off the loin cloth. And then, what was seen, could not be unseen.

Check white dwarf 300!
All answers will be answered there.

If the gene seed isn't compatible with females, it isn't.

If the Fluff stated a broad reason then I would go along with what you say.
But they specifically say that it is due to selection of a Male Zygote- which is nonsensical- whatever happens in the 40th millenium

You have to say that the zygote will be gender specific in the far future, when it has not been for a much longer period in the past.

so essentially the fluff is erroneous
but any female SM's are so beefed up they would look like their male collegues
a bit like the East German Olympic Squad then

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Read this.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gene-seed
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine

Firstly thanks for the replies chaps and the linkies are much appreciated Ivan!
from the latter:

(SM'S) must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.

okay so the fluffy stuff says that they must be male. But what I now don't understand is how a zygote is deemed male?
The zygote is the initial cell after fertilisation, which lasts about four days before becoming a blastocyst
Determination of gender takes place much later- hence us boys have nipples

so is the fluff flawed or please explain what I missed

The fluff is referring to the zygotes of the implanted organs which are "keyed" (whatever that means) to male hormones and tissue types, and are intended to be implanted in a developing male body. Since "zygote" is a product of sexual reproduction, the more generic "embryo" probably would be more appropriate. Keep in mind that Rick Priestley is a game developer and not a biologist. The assumption is that there is something about these embyonic organs that requires them to develop in a male body as they have ever since the Emperor created his first Space Marine.

Organ cloning uses adult stem cells from specific organs to cultivate specific tissue types. Essentially the role of the Progenoid glands is to produce a gene-seed which contains the germ cells (adult stem cells) required to produce each implant. DNA can be extracted from the germ cells contained in the gene-seed and implanted in a host cell which will then develop into an embyonic organ.

This is assuming the genetic engineering of the 41st millenium is anything like that of today of course.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Because the Emperor and his scientists created geneseed only for males what's the point in having a female space marine,males are stronger,have hardier constitution and other things.

Ok thanks
what is the geneseed
how does this only work for males
is it a chromosone thing or what

Please can we keep the misogyny confined to the realms of 40K - thanks

I doubt Ivan's comment was meant to be misogynistic, but a reference to the secondary sex characteristics in mature male humans such as:

Increased stature; adult males are taller than adult females, on average
Heavier skull and bone structure
Enlargement of larynx and deepening of voice
Increased muscle mass and strength
Broader shoulders and chest
Coarser, more rigid skin texture, due to less subcutaneous fat

All of these physical traits would be assets when we're talking about the production of Imperial terror troops.

Aside from the intimidation factor, many of these characteristics make pubescent males better candidates for the implants. Broadening of shoulders and chest affords more room for the larger implants such as the Secondary Heart, Multi-Lung, and Preomnor. Development of heavier skull and bone structure would be further enhanced by the Ossmodula. Devlopment of increased muscle mass and strength would be furthered by the Biscopea. Less (or non-existant) subcutaneous fat would benefit the Black Carapace process. Even the secondary male sex characteristic of increased secretions of oil and sweat glands would assist in the function of the Mucranoid.

Keep in mind too, that Space Marines are genetic decendants of the Emperor. Using his own DNA he created 20 Primarchs, and from their DNA, he created 20 Space Marine legions. After the Heresy, the Loyalist legions were divided into chapters, which through the millenia begat successor chapters. I'd assume that since the Emperor created his Primarchs as male, he probably had a good reason to insist that their demi-clones be male too.

Don't forget, Zygote might mean something completely different then than now

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:But they specifically say that it is due to selection of a Male Zygote- which is nonsensical- whatever happens in the 40th millenium

You have to say that the zygote will be gender specific in the far future, when it has not been for a much longer period in the past.

so essentially the fluff is erroneous

Where does it say that? If you're talking about the part that says "Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.", it's saying the recruits must be male, not the zygotes.

BTW, the conversation got ahead of me while I was typing my previous response. Check it out - it might answer some questions.

Manchu wrote:There are plenty of femarines.

wrong color scheme. Should be grey.

Killkrazy wrote:

On another tack, like other people noted, the immense amount of changes caused by the hormone therapy, brain washing and surgical alterations, makes ideas about SMs being men or women essentially meaningless. They are Space Marines, not men or women.

I assumed Ivan was referring to the gameworld viewpoint but it highlighted a possible distraction which would be better nipped in the bud.

Secondly, has Rick Priestley never heard of research? Honestly, you just can't get the staff these days

The fluff is referring to the zygotes of the implanted organs which are "keyed" (whatever that means) to male hormones and tissue types, and are intended to be implanted in a developing male body. Since "zygote" is a product of sexual reproduction, the more generic "embryo" probably would be more appropriate.

I think if it were being written now, stem cell culture would be written into the marinification process. It was the reference to zygotes that bamboozled me.

Thanks for the clarification, Elusive.
If nothing else it has given a little refresher to an aspect of 'O' level biology (GSCE to you young whippersnappers)

riplikash wrote:First on the scientific thing:

Modern scientific understanding of biology is next to useless in analyzing 40k tech. Yes, this is partially because the writers are NOT scientists and don't have any kind of background in biology/physics/etc. But another reason is because the knowledge required to engineer a space marine is thousands of years beyond our current understanding.

...

.

No, it isn't.

We have a good though imperfect knowledge of how genetics and tissue development work using hormones and so on.

There is absolutely nothing in modern science to suggest that women's bodies are in any serious respect different to men's and would not be able to take surgical and hormonal modifications.

For example, we know that tissue rejection takes place because of cell surface antigens. We do not yet know how to modify cell surface antigens, but once we do, we will be able to transplant any tissues without using the rejection suppression drugs which are needed at the moment.

To say "Their science is beyond our understanding" is as much a copout as Handwavium.