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str00dles1 wrote:I for one think thats a good cost for it. All vehicles of any sort should be more expensive. Look at the game now, 1000 vehicles per side for almost every army. So the game becomes lets see whos transport gets blown up first so then the troops are screwed and die in droves. I hope that this is a hint in 6th that it will be more on how 40k should really be, about the troops shooting the hell out of eachother and cutting eachother up in combat, not running around in tons of tanks.

From my perspective, people use transports because their more durable than the previous edition and, on the current edition, gun-lines are practically futile with how Infitrators can Out Flank, units are horrendously fast (Baal Predators and BA Vindicators spring to mind), and how Morale is calculated in CC.

While units cannot consolidate into combat anymore (thank god), the weight of options to circumvent a gunline are still there.

In this edition, the more mobile the army, the better off you'll be.


But I digress.

I think the Necrons are going to be priced (point-wise) like the Tau is now; cheap infantry and expensive vehicles to balance one another. While I'm hoping Immortals can swap their standard for the Tesla Carbine (much like FW can trade for Pulse Carbines) for free, the vehicle's are going to be expensive because;

1) They're skimmers.
2) One can 'Turbo Boost' (or 'Super Sonic')
3) Their AV 11
4) Weapon Loadouts
5) The Vehicle Armory

But the 'Open-topped' bit makes me frown. Alot. Blowing up Raiders with Fire Warriors is bad enough.

Ostrakon wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:I for one think thats a good cost for it. All vehicles of any sort should be more expensive. Look at the game now, 1000 vehicles per side for almost every army. So the game becomes lets see whos transport gets blown up first so then the troops are screwed and die in droves. I hope that this is a hint in 6th that it will be more on how 40k should really be, about the troops shooting the hell out of eachother and cutting eachother up in combat, not running around in tons of tanks.

The problem is that this isn't reflected in other codices, though.

I seriously doubt we're going to see 80 point razorbacks in the 6E marine codex, too.

Not 80, and I know its per codex. But as they have done before for books not remade a simple errat until they are fixes it how they want it.

The problem with proposing that all vehicles/transports in 6th will/should be more expensive is that the Rulebook itself doesn't affect it, but the individual codices. Therefore, if some units are made more expensive (say rhinos are 45pts in the next Codex), then they will be even further under-costed in Codices that have not been updated, therefore creating some notable imbalance...

And lucky necrons we get to be updated first to be at a disadvantage longest, after being without an update since 3e so we got to be at a disadvantage the longest...

Also if its correct vehicles will get tougher in 6e, how come they nerfed the monolith!

Depending on where Doom Scythes end up points-wise, I think one of the cores I'll try out will be Stormlord, a couple of Doom Scythes, a couple of scarabs, and a bunch of warriors.

Cryage wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

bluebomber wrote:I wanted to get this post out befor i went to get battlefield

Do you think that wraiths will still have S 6? or will that go down?

WS 4 BS 4 S 6 T 4 I 2 W 2 A 3 Sv 3++


Rumored, that is....

I2? Seriously? Cripes, they're...still not worth it then. Insta-gibbed by p-fist or equivalent, horrible sweeping advance protection, and now with 2w and higher squad size, that means there's MORE negative you get to your LD when you lose combat. *Ugh*

Keep on mind , they can take an upgrade that is equal to lash whips , putting their opponents initiative to 1

It doesn't change the sweeping advance bit though as the opponent will still get to roll their normal initiative.

zacharia wrote:

The problem with proposing that all vehicles/transports in 6th will/should be more expensive is that the Rulebook itself doesn't affect it, but the individual codices. Therefore, if some units are made more expensive (say rhinos are 45pts in the next Codex), then they will be even further under-costed in Codices that have not been updated, therefore creating some notable imbalance...

And lucky necrons we get to be updated first to be at a disadvantage longest, after being without an update since 3e so we got to be at a disadvantage the longest...

Also if its correct vehicles will get tougher in 6e, how come they nerfed the monolith!

They did not nerf the Monolith. In exchange for the loss of immunity from Melta's and Lances, Monolith's get another, unique attack that allows them to suck models through their portal and instant kill them on a Toughness check (within 6 inches).

I think that is alot better than immunity.

10$ says you'd kill more Grey Knight Paladins that way than anything else in the army.

Yes but that is kinda useless since getting to 6" to use your new monolith weapon means it gets in range of the meltas the monolith is now vulnerable in

I am really stuck on heavy support!

I have two "spyders" which i might want due to anti psi powers and if they get some sort of boost.

But I REALLY like the idea of a long range artillery unit for the crons and want the doom ark

BUT what about those ahnihilation barges? does ANYONE have information on them? I mean are they fast skimmers? the weapons, are they like a heavy guass cannon or something? point costs? They might be a superior choice in HS slots.

Some more news!

Bram Gaunt on Warseer strikes again:

[Ghost Ark]... makes the Warrior Unit it is joined to Ever-living.

I got my hands on a WD too. To clear a few things...

Quantum Shielding - Quantum Shielding provides a +2 bonus to AV in Front and Flank of the Vehicle until it suffers a PENETRATING Hit. Glancing will not do the trick.

The weapons on the flanks of the Ghostbark/Doomsday Ark are basically 5 Gauss Flayers that may fire on different targets.

Tesla - Tesla Weapons deal 2 additional hits for each 6 to hit that was rolled.

Staves of the Covenant ARE Power weapons.

Warscythes still add 2D6 to armourpenetration, which is pretty neat with S7.

The Command Barge enables the Lord to attack a unit it flew over, even if it moved flat-out. The lord may deal 3 strikes, which hit on 4+ (3+ if the vehicle moed less 12" or less). Each Wound roll of 6 may be allocated by the Necron Player. All aditional effects of the Lords weapon DO apply. Vehicles are always hit in the rear.

That changes quite a lot if true.

They did not nerf the Monolith. In exchange for the loss of immunity from Melta's and Lances, Monolith's get another, unique attack that allows them to suck models through their portal and instant kill them on a Toughness check (within 6 inches).

I think that is alot better than immunity.

10$ says you'd kill more Grey Knight Paladins that way than anything else in the army.

I didnt say it didnt get buffs as well as nerfs, i was just remarking on the rumour that vehicles will be tougher in 6e, yet ours got weaker.

As you mention the buff i still think it lost more than it gained

pros
The portal attack
better weapons
35 points cheaper

cons
loss of melta etc immunity
loss of wbb rerolls
loss of pulling units from combat
loss of deepstrike mishap safety

If they left porting from combat id be happy with it.

You forgot unlimited range on the teleport.

StormForged wrote:

zacharia wrote:

The problem with proposing that all vehicles/transports in 6th will/should be more expensive is that the Rulebook itself doesn't affect it, but the individual codices. Therefore, if some units are made more expensive (say rhinos are 45pts in the next Codex), then they will be even further under-costed in Codices that have not been updated, therefore creating some notable imbalance...

And lucky necrons we get to be updated first to be at a disadvantage longest, after being without an update since 3e so we got to be at a disadvantage the longest...

Also if its correct vehicles will get tougher in 6e, how come they nerfed the monolith!

They did not nerf the Monolith. In exchange for the loss of immunity from Melta's and Lances, Monolith's get another, unique attack that allows them to suck models through their portal and instant kill them on a Toughness check (within 6 inches).

I think that is alot better than immunity.

10$ says you'd kill more Grey Knight Paladins that way than anything else in the army.

I will take that bet, a 6 inch str test isnt going to kill nearly as many paladins as a str 9 ap 2 large blast lol

I'm so confused at this point. I just need the flipping codex.

I will take that bet, a 6 inch str test isnt going to kill nearly as many paladins as a str 9 ap 2 large blast lol

The Particle whip is Ap 3.

Sasori wrote:Gorgon, would you mind refreshing my memory on why we don't want to bunker them anymore? I don't remember at all.

Do they normally list the new points cost for things in WD? I don't get it very often.

You can't capture objectives from inside closed-topped transports. You have to disembark, and objectives are scored throughout the game.

Per the rumors, you score 2 VPs every turn (starting at the end of turn 2) you *hold* an objective (nonscoring unit) and 3 VPS every turn you *capture* it (scoring unit). In comparison, you score 1 VP for a unit kill of any kind. It partially depends on how the objectives are placed, but generally you can't just stay in your vehicles in gunline formation and concede the middle of the table for a few turns or else you're going to be in a big VP hole. Edit: And per the rumors, vehicles are *ignored*. So they can't even contest.

After I posted, I remembered that units can hold/capture from inside open-topped transports. So as rumored, it's going to affect certain armies more than others, and Necrons might be the latter category. Still, that should create more disembarked infantry in general.

Aldaris wrote:That changes quite a lot if true.

I think he's extrapolating a bit though.

Take the ever-living with salt, though, the article states that "the ghost-ark had to be destroyed to make sure the warriors won't come back".

That's a pretty big leap to assume the unit outright gets Ever-Living, rather than just the Ghost Ark repairing them.

haroon wrote:

StormForged wrote:

zacharia wrote:

The problem with proposing that all vehicles/transports in 6th will/should be more expensive is that the Rulebook itself doesn't affect it, but the individual codices. Therefore, if some units are made more expensive (say rhinos are 45pts in the next Codex), then they will be even further under-costed in Codices that have not been updated, therefore creating some notable imbalance...

And lucky necrons we get to be updated first to be at a disadvantage longest, after being without an update since 3e so we got to be at a disadvantage the longest...

Also if its correct vehicles will get tougher in 6e, how come they nerfed the monolith!

They did not nerf the Monolith. In exchange for the loss of immunity from Melta's and Lances, Monolith's get another, unique attack that allows them to suck models through their portal and instant kill them on a Toughness check (within 6 inches).

I think that is alot better than immunity.

10$ says you'd kill more Grey Knight Paladins that way than anything else in the army.

I will take that bet, a 6 inch str test isnt going to kill nearly as many paladins as a str 9 ap 2 large blast lol

You're on. A large blast template isn't cost effective on a small unit (even though they're on large Terminator Bases) and they still have their invulnerable saves to boot. At most you'll net three Paladins (on a direct hit) and kill two; where as I can hit all five (which are common among Terminators, especially highly priced paladins) and kill two-three out right.

Quantum shielding just got way better. Rock on!

Yeah, I found it a bit odd that advanced necron tech could be disabled by lightly scratching it. The fact that penetrating hits only can be able of disabling it makes a lot more sense.

StormForged wrote:

haroon wrote:

StormForged wrote:

zacharia wrote:

The problem with proposing that all vehicles/transports in 6th will/should be more expensive is that the Rulebook itself doesn't affect it, but the individual codices. Therefore, if some units are made more expensive (say rhinos are 45pts in the next Codex), then they will be even further under-costed in Codices that have not been updated, therefore creating some notable imbalance...

And lucky necrons we get to be updated first to be at a disadvantage longest, after being without an update since 3e so we got to be at a disadvantage the longest...

Also if its correct vehicles will get tougher in 6e, how come they nerfed the monolith!

They did not nerf the Monolith. In exchange for the loss of immunity from Melta's and Lances, Monolith's get another, unique attack that allows them to suck models through their portal and instant kill them on a Toughness check (within 6 inches).

I think that is alot better than immunity.

10$ says you'd kill more Grey Knight Paladins that way than anything else in the army.

I will take that bet, a 6 inch str test isnt going to kill nearly as many paladins as a str 9 ap 2 large blast lol

You're on. A large blast template isn't cost effective on a small unit (even though they're on large Terminator Bases) and they still have their invulnerable saves to boot. At most you'll net three Paladins (on a direct hit) and kill two; where as I can hit all five (which are common among Terminators, especially highly priced paladins) and kill two-three out right.

True enough but I would not risk the incoming hammer for a possible one more kill

I still want to know how the shield works vs. the lance rule. If lance ignores it we are really going to be hurting with all the lance weapons in game and Eldar out next year.

gorgon wrote:
You can't capture objectives from inside closed-topped transports. You have to disembark, and objectives are scored throughout the game.

Per the rumors, you score 2 VPs every turn (starting at the end of turn 2) you *hold* an objective (nonscoring unit) and 3 VPS every turn you *capture* it (scoring unit). In comparison, you score 1 VP for a unit kill of any kind. It partially depends on how the objectives are placed, but generally you can't just stay in your vehicles in gunline formation and concede the middle of the table for a few turns or else you're going to be in a big VP hole. Edit: And per the rumors, vehicles are *ignored*. So they can't even contest.

After I posted, I remembered that units can hold/capture from inside open-topped transports. So as rumored, it's going to affect certain armies more than others, and Necrons might be the latter category. Still, that should create more disembarked infantry in general.

Without the RB in front of me, can you not also launch an assault without penalty from an open topped vehicle, or is that me just wishfully thinking?

I'm starting to see why Necrons decided to go to ground when they knocked over the ant hill by killing the Old Ones. A bunch of angry eldar with brightlances would be pretty good against their vehicles. In fact due to the larger amount of av 13 in the game, it's going to make the darklance/brightlance a fundamentally better gun in general.

Balor wrote:I still want to know how the shield works vs. the lance rule. If lance ignores it we are really going to be hurting with all the lance weapons in game and Eldar out next year.

There are only Two armies that can bring a lot of lances to the fray, so I would not be that concerned. The other armies that can, are much shorter ranged than their DE/El versions.

Sasori wrote:

Balor wrote:I still want to know how the shield works vs. the lance rule. If lance ignores it we are really going to be hurting with all the lance weapons in game and Eldar out next year.

There are only Two armies that can bring a lot of lances to the fray, so I would not be that concerned. The other armies that can, are much shorter ranged than their DE/El versions.

Very true Sasori about it mainly being DE/EL but we will see a huge band wagon on Eldar as they have always had a following either for lore or the cheese that they bring to tournament play. I'm myself always struggle vs. Stealer shock and spore poding zoenthropes with the triple str 10 lance.

Kevin949 wrote:

Cryage wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

bluebomber wrote:I wanted to get this post out befor i went to get battlefield

Do you think that wraiths will still have S 6? or will that go down?

WS 4 BS 4 S 6 T 4 I 2 W 2 A 3 Sv 3++


Rumored, that is....

I2? Seriously? Cripes, they're...still not worth it then. Insta-gibbed by p-fist or equivalent, horrible sweeping advance protection, and now with 2w and higher squad size, that means there's MORE negative you get to your LD when you lose combat. *Ugh*

Keep on mind , they can take an upgrade that is equal to lash whips , putting their opponents initiative to 1

It doesn't change the sweeping advance bit though as the opponent will still get to roll their normal initiative.

Wraiths being fearless makes it pretty hard to get swept regardless of initiative

Zachilles wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Cryage wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

bluebomber wrote:I wanted to get this post out befor i went to get battlefield

Do you think that wraiths will still have S 6? or will that go down?

WS 4 BS 4 S 6 T 4 I 2 W 2 A 3 Sv 3++


Rumored, that is....

I2? Seriously? Cripes, they're...still not worth it then. Insta-gibbed by p-fist or equivalent, horrible sweeping advance protection, and now with 2w and higher squad size, that means there's MORE negative you get to your LD when you lose combat. *Ugh*

Keep on mind , they can take an upgrade that is equal to lash whips , putting their opponents initiative to 1

It doesn't change the sweeping advance bit though as the opponent will still get to roll their normal initiative.

Wraiths being fearless makes it pretty hard to get swept regardless of initiative

Wraiths get fearless? Where did you see that?

so the sheld makes the a 13 av intill a it is hit? that just seems bad. the Necron lived to 10's of thounds years and that is all it takes. It should work like a weapon destoryed.

Kenmure wrote:so the sheld makes the a 13 av intill a it is hit? that just seems bad. the Necron lived to 10's of thounds years and that is all it takes. It should work like a weapon destoryed.

No, until it is penetrated. There's a difference between "hit" and "penetrating hit"

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Zachilles wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Cryage wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

bluebomber wrote:I wanted to get this post out befor i went to get battlefield

Do you think that wraiths will still have S 6? or will that go down?

WS 4 BS 4 S 6 T 4 I 2 W 2 A 3 Sv 3++


Rumored, that is....

I2? Seriously? Cripes, they're...still not worth it then. Insta-gibbed by p-fist or equivalent, horrible sweeping advance protection, and now with 2w and higher squad size, that means there's MORE negative you get to your LD when you lose combat. *Ugh*

Keep on mind , they can take an upgrade that is equal to lash whips , putting their opponents initiative to 1

It doesn't change the sweeping advance bit though as the opponent will still get to roll their normal initiative.

Wraiths being fearless makes it pretty hard to get swept regardless of initiative

Wraiths get fearless? Where did you see that?

Ill try and dig up the quote but Yak said they were fearless when he confirmed 2 wounds

think im looking at this set up:

lord, special one that fires tank of the opp every turn on a 3+
with court, tailored for cc

Ctan, lascannon, dangerous terrain

3*10 Warriors

10 Scarabs
2 heavy destroyers
2 heavy destroyers

Monolith
Monolith