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StormForged wrote:

haroon wrote:

StormForged wrote:

zacharia wrote:

The problem with proposing that all vehicles/transports in 6th will/should be more expensive is that the Rulebook itself doesn't affect it, but the individual codices. Therefore, if some units are made more expensive (say rhinos are 45pts in the next Codex), then they will be even further under-costed in Codices that have not been updated, therefore creating some notable imbalance...

And lucky necrons we get to be updated first to be at a disadvantage longest, after being without an update since 3e so we got to be at a disadvantage the longest...

Also if its correct vehicles will get tougher in 6e, how come they nerfed the monolith!

They did not nerf the Monolith. In exchange for the loss of immunity from Melta's and Lances, Monolith's get another, unique attack that allows them to suck models through their portal and instant kill them on a Toughness check (within 6 inches).

I think that is alot better than immunity.

10$ says you'd kill more Grey Knight Paladins that way than anything else in the army.

I will take that bet, a 6 inch str test isnt going to kill nearly as many paladins as a str 9 ap 2 large blast lol

You're on. A large blast template isn't cost effective on a small unit (even though they're on large Terminator Bases) and they still have their invulnerable saves to boot. At most you'll net three Paladins (on a direct hit) and kill two; where as I can hit all five (which are common among Terminators, especially highly priced paladins) and kill two-three out right.

This is just wrong, a paladin has 4 str so if it rolls a 1-4 its fine. You could fit 10 paladins under a large blast and if any of them fail there 5+ save they are instantly killed. I dont even see how you can argue this its fairly obvious. Its also much more cost effective point wise, and it literally has 12 times the range. You could fire it 4 times before a monlith is even with in range of its gate attack.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Kenmure wrote:so the sheld makes the a 13 av intill a it is hit? that just seems bad. the Necron lived to 10's of thounds years and that is all it takes. It should work like a weapon destoryed.

No, until it is penetrated. There's a difference between "hit" and "penetrating hit"

ok thats better then when i frist read it i seen hit lol

I think the shields are rather interesting on paper. +2 AV from a vehicle upgrade is certainly nothing to sneeze at. It will boil down to the Shields cost compared to the survivability of the vehicle. AV11 (and in some cases Open-Topped) is something you wouldn't take lightly, especially for the projected points cost, so Vehicle survivability overrides its weapons load-out.

Have you ever seen a Dark Eldar player take Raiders and Ravagers without Flicker Fields (and/or) Night Shrouds?

If the points cost for the upgrade is relatively low (5-15 Points) than it definately makes it a worthwhile upgrade.

StormForged wrote:I think the shields are rather interesting on paper. +2 AV from a vehicle upgrade is certainly nothing to sneeze at. It will boil down to the Shields cost compared to the survivability of the vehicle. AV11 (and in some cases Open-Topped) is something you wouldn't take lightly, especially for the projected points cost, so Vehicle survivability overrides its weapons load-out.

Have you ever seen a Dark Eldar player take Raiders and Ravagers without Flicker Fields (and/or) Night Shrouds?

If the points cost for the upgrade is relatively low (5-15 Points) than it definately makes it a worthwhile upgrade.

Yak already said its not an upgrade. It either has it or it dosent.

How exactly do Reanimation Protocols work?

Do you roll during the Necron turn or the other player's turn?

Is it only one 5+ roll, or do you roll at the end of each phase for a downed model?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

StormForged wrote:I think the shields are rather interesting on paper. +2 AV from a vehicle upgrade is certainly nothing to sneeze at. It will boil down to the Shields cost compared to the survivability of the vehicle. AV11 (and in some cases Open-Topped) is something you wouldn't take lightly, especially for the projected points cost, so Vehicle survivability overrides its weapons load-out.

Have you ever seen a Dark Eldar player take Raiders and Ravagers without Flicker Fields (and/or) Night Shrouds?

If the points cost for the upgrade is relatively low (5-15 Points) than it definately makes it a worthwhile upgrade.

I think quantum shield is actually automatically taken by the vehicle. So you don't have to pay for it.

EDIT: I didn't see haroon's post.

Is it only one 5+ roll, or do you roll at the end of each phase for a downed model?

one roll for each downed model at the end of the phase it was downed.

If warriors stayed there and you rerolled each phase till they stood up id go dancing naked in the streets

zacharia wrote:

Is it only one 5+ roll, or do you roll at the end of each phase for a downed model?

one roll for each downed model at the end of the phase it was downed.

If warriors stayed there and you rerolled each phase till they stood up id go dancing naked in the streets

Ok thanks, I understood it correctly the first time I read it then. A bit worse than before, but at least you can take it after anything now.

Yeah, a roll after each phase would be awesome.

Kenmure wrote:so the sheld makes the a 13 av intill a it is hit? that just seems bad. the Necron lived to 10's of thounds years and that is all it takes. It should work like a weapon destoryed.

Um... Might I point out that 60,000 years ago in storyline was 20,000 BCE... AV 13 is amazing against tree branches and slingshots...

Well if the shield is only gone on a pen that really does change stuff besides silly lance weapons. Monos with AV 16 is crazy that means only weapons that can roll more then one D6 to pen or lance weapons can kill it! .... Besides ED/El grenades. Meltas must roll a 2D6 of 9 or more. Cheater Knights hammers can't pen a monolith srt10 + D6. It also makes the Doomsday Barge worth 175, you may even get three rounds of shooting from it.

Balor wrote:Well if the shield is only gone on a pen that really does change stuff besides silly lance weapons. Monos with AV 16 is crazy that means only weapons that can roll more then one D6 to pen or lance weapons can kill it! .... Besides ED/El grenades. Meltas must roll a 2D6 of 9 or more. Cheater Knights hammers can't pen a monolith srt10 + D6. It also makes the Doomsday Barge worth 175, you may even get three rounds of shooting from it.

Rest assured the monolith does not have quantum shielding.

Balor wrote:Well if the shield is only gone on a pen that really does change stuff besides silly lance weapons. Monos with AV 16 is crazy that means only weapons that can roll more then one D6 to pen or lance weapons can kill it! .... Besides ED/El grenades. Meltas must roll a 2D6 of 9 or more. Cheater Knights hammers can't pen a monolith srt10 + D6. It also makes the Doomsday Barge worth 175, you may even get three rounds of shooting from it.

I don't think monoliths get Sheilds...but if they did hilarity will ensue.

Balor wrote:Well if the shield is only gone on a pen that really does change stuff besides silly lance weapons. Monos with AV 16 is crazy that means only weapons that can roll more then one D6 to pen or lance weapons can kill it! .... Besides ED/El grenades. Meltas must roll a 2D6 of 9 or more. Cheater Knights hammers can't pen a monolith srt10 + D6. It also makes the Doomsday Barge worth 175, you may even get three rounds of shooting from it.

I am pretty sure monos do not have quantum shielding

Well if the shield is only gone on a pen that really does change stuff besides silly lance weapons. Monos with AV 16 is crazy that means only weapons that can roll more then one D6 to pen or lance weapons can kill it! .... Besides ED/El grenades. Meltas must roll a 2D6 of 9 or more. Cheater Knights hammers can't pen a monolith srt10 + D6. It also makes the Doomsday Barge worth 175, you may even get three rounds of shooting from it.

monos dont get quantum shielding so just staright av14 with normal vulnerabilities to meltas etc

Philld77 wrote:

gorgon wrote:
You can't capture objectives from inside closed-topped transports. You have to disembark, and objectives are scored throughout the game.

Per the rumors, you score 2 VPs every turn (starting at the end of turn 2) you *hold* an objective (nonscoring unit) and 3 VPS every turn you *capture* it (scoring unit). In comparison, you score 1 VP for a unit kill of any kind. It partially depends on how the objectives are placed, but generally you can't just stay in your vehicles in gunline formation and concede the middle of the table for a few turns or else you're going to be in a big VP hole. Edit: And per the rumors, vehicles are *ignored*. So they can't even contest.

After I posted, I remembered that units can hold/capture from inside open-topped transports. So as rumored, it's going to affect certain armies more than others, and Necrons might be the latter category. Still, that should create more disembarked infantry in general.

Without the RB in front of me, can you not also launch an assault without penalty from an open topped vehicle, or is that me just wishfully thinking?

Well, now you can, depending on your speed. We were discussing rumored 6th ed rules. Interestingly, in those it appears that units can't charge from any moving vehicle -- open or closed -- unless they're Fleet. Another point on open-topped in the rumors...there's no modifier on the damage charts anymore.

Speaking of the Mono, is the Whip Ordnance or just blast?

Oh sad face! My bad I totally missed that part.

Farquestor wrote:
Um... Might I point out that 60,000 years ago in storyline was 20,000 BCE... AV 13 is amazing against tree branches and slingshots...

Why did I get an image of Basil Fawlty smacking his red Austin Maxi just then

haroon wrote:

StormForged wrote:

haroon wrote:

StormForged wrote:

zacharia wrote:

The problem with proposing that all vehicles/transports in 6th will/should be more expensive is that the Rulebook itself doesn't affect it, but the individual codices. Therefore, if some units are made more expensive (say rhinos are 45pts in the next Codex), then they will be even further under-costed in Codices that have not been updated, therefore creating some notable imbalance...

And lucky necrons we get to be updated first to be at a disadvantage longest, after being without an update since 3e so we got to be at a disadvantage the longest...

Also if its correct vehicles will get tougher in 6e, how come they nerfed the monolith!

They did not nerf the Monolith. In exchange for the loss of immunity from Melta's and Lances, Monolith's get another, unique attack that allows them to suck models through their portal and instant kill them on a Toughness check (within 6 inches).

I think that is alot better than immunity.

10$ says you'd kill more Grey Knight Paladins that way than anything else in the army.

I will take that bet, a 6 inch str test isnt going to kill nearly as many paladins as a str 9 ap 2 large blast lol

You're on. A large blast template isn't cost effective on a small unit (even though they're on large Terminator Bases) and they still have their invulnerable saves to boot. At most you'll net three Paladins (on a direct hit) and kill two; where as I can hit all five (which are common among Terminators, especially highly priced paladins) and kill two-three out right.

This is just wrong, a paladin has 4 str so if it rolls a 1-4 its fine. You could fit 10 paladins under a large blast and if any of them fail there 5+ save they are instantly killed. I dont even see how you can argue this its fairly obvious. Its also much more cost effective point wise, and it literally has 12 times the range. You could fire it 4 times before a monlith is even with in range of its gate attack.

No experienced Grey Knight player would ever field 10 Paladins in a squad. That's just asking for trouble (unless its a 'character' led army, which still wouldn't warrant such an expensive group). Secondly, if you're hitting 10 paladins with one blast, then the other player is doing something wrong.

Thirdly, the Doomsday Ark has to remain immobile in order to fire its S9 Template, so the likely hood of the paladins using terrain to block line of sight is high, so in reality you would get 2-3 shots and a +4 Cover on top of that, which actually increases their survivability rate.

Fourthly, while the monolith has to get really close to use its portal, I can still hit all 10 Paladins and they get no saves what-so-ever plus, depending on how the portal attack works (whether if its done in the shooting phase or not) still have a Flux Arc to shoot at them.

A 150 point open-topped vehicle (as some people have mentioned) with/without upgrades and weapons (which again is in the New Codex and left open for scrutiny) that must be immobile to fire its strength 9 template that isn't ordonance barrage is (in my view) the worst thing you could ever consider buying as a long range heavy support choice. Not only do you need line of sight, but more likely you're exposing yourself, which undoubtedly means it'll get one shot then explode!

Until I see the actual Codex, I'd prefer the Monolith over the Doomsday Farce hands down in that situation.

gorgon wrote:

Philld77 wrote:

Without the RB in front of me, can you not also launch an assault without penalty from an open topped vehicle, or is that me just wishfully thinking?

Well, now you can, depending on your speed. We were discussing rumored 6th ed rules. Interestingly, in those it appears that units can't charge from any moving vehicle -- open or closed -- unless they're Fleet. Another point on open-topped in the rumors...there's no modifier on the damage charts anymore.

Well that'll certainly change things if it does come with 6th ed, guess I'll have to rethink my Necron list then, thanks for the heads up

Zachilles wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Zachilles wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Cryage wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

bluebomber wrote:I wanted to get this post out befor i went to get battlefield

Do you think that wraiths will still have S 6? or will that go down?

WS 4 BS 4 S 6 T 4 I 2 W 2 A 3 Sv 3++


Rumored, that is....

I2? Seriously? Cripes, they're...still not worth it then. Insta-gibbed by p-fist or equivalent, horrible sweeping advance protection, and now with 2w and higher squad size, that means there's MORE negative you get to your LD when you lose combat. *Ugh*

Keep on mind , they can take an upgrade that is equal to lash whips , putting their opponents initiative to 1

It doesn't change the sweeping advance bit though as the opponent will still get to roll their normal initiative.

Wraiths being fearless makes it pretty hard to get swept regardless of initiative

Wraiths get fearless? Where did you see that?

Ill try and dig up the quote but Yak said they were fearless when he confirmed 2 wounds

This is all I see on the first page, and they've been pretty diligent about keeping it all there:

• Canoptek Wraiths: Protectors of the Tombs while the hosts slumber.

1-6 in a unit. Jump Infantry who ignore terrain (don't take tests). Still have a 3+ invulnerable save and 3A base with Rending. 2 Wounds, but only I2. All models can take one of a few different upgrades including a Whip Coil (nearly identical to a Tyranid Lash Whip), particle caster (pistol) or a Exile Beamer (12" ranged heavy weapon that kills a randomly chosen model in the target unit unless it passes a Strength test). Roughly the same amount of points they used to be.

I'm an interested party in the new Necron release...and interestingly, all of this analysis has led me to decide not buy certain units (at least right away). If I hadn't seen discussed the various strengths and weaknesses of the units, perhaps I would have just succumbed to desire to buy a whole bunch of new toys.

That's not to say I won't buy some stuff...it's just that I'm going to be a lot more...cautious....with the first release. Interestingly, this might be what GW is afraid of the most - that the internet chooses the winners and losers of a codex before it's released and thus decrease sales of units dubbed "losers." Personally, I'd say the fix should be on the rules side, because it is impossible to control information like this in the internet.

im going to buy a little of all any ways but i have a terment at the end of next mouth and i want to use my necrons and know i have a lot of information so i know what is good to use and what is ok and can start thinking about what i want to do and how to make my list. thank the overlord i save money for this reless.

Is a terment like a tournament?

from the original necron thread

Yakface wrote,
19) Besides a few units that are Fearless (Wraiths, Tomb Spyders and Scarabs), the army doesn't have any sort of blanket immunity to morale. They are still Ld10, but obviously we know that still leaves them very vulnerable to being run down in combat, and it looks like that will remain a big Achilles heel.

is where i believe people are getting the idea that wraiths are fearless.

Am I the only person who thinks a unit of 6 wraiths could potentially be absolutely stupid, especially since yak says they cost pretty close to what they do now? They can pop vehicles decently and at 6S and WS5 they will give pretty much any PF/TH-equipped unit a fair amount of pain. The trouble will be keeping them alive, but at least they have the invuln save so MMs and MLs won't outright wipe them. Plus, hey, RP.

void stalker wrote:
from the original necron thread

Yakface wrote,
19) Besides a few units that are Fearless (Wraiths, Tomb Spyders and Scarabs), the army doesn't have any sort of blanket immunity to morale. They are still Ld10, but obviously we know that still leaves them very vulnerable to being run down in combat, and it looks like that will remain a big Achilles heel.

is where i believe people are getting the idea that wraiths are fearless.

Thanks so much I've been trying to find this

Ostrakon wrote:Am I the only person who thinks a unit of 6 wraiths could potentially be absolutely stupid, especially since yak says they cost pretty close to what they do now? They can pop vehicles decently and at 6S and WS5 they will give pretty much any PF/TH-equipped unit a fair amount of pain. The trouble will be keeping them alive, but at least they have the invuln save so MMs and MLs won't outright wipe them. Plus, hey, RP.

6 wraiths is 12 wounds worth of models. That tends to last a bit longer than 6 wounds worth of models.

Balance wrote:Is a terment like a tournament?

yes i have been you for the past 2 days working my spelling is bad.

i have waited for so long for the new codex to come out its about time GW!!!

i thought wraiths were WS 4

'edit'
fixed spelling