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There's a few time-line moments where in general I think we have to assume that the timeline being interrupted and changed is part of the constant timeline.

There's also a few spots in Earth's history where in general they don't mind messing with things (eg modern times) because of WW3 basically destroying so much that its like a restart button.


So in theory the timeline was always changed by that time-jump event. Perhaps there was a point at which the time jump never had actually happened and the future was different, but then it happened and no grand overseeing power (eg the Q) was concerned enough to see it fixed (or they approved/encouraged the change)



Timeline alterations are always a bit on the messy side and its why I always liked how, historically, ST kept them to one episode events where at the end mostly everything is back to normal. Cause once you start messing with time it gets, well, messy

I totally agree that timeline changes are a mess, but, as you point out, once you’ve let the genie out the bottle, whatcha gonna do?

Really, I think they work well for humorous episodes and not much else.

The episode is referenced in a future episode where Nog holds up his pad on Earth history and says "doesn't this human look like Captain Sisko?"

Implying that Sisko was successful in fulfilling Bell's role and preserved the timeline with only insignificant disruption.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
I totally agree that timeline changes are a mess, but, as you point out, once you’ve let the genie out the bottle, whatcha gonna do?

Really, I think they work well for humorous episodes and not much else.

I think they work well as single episode and can be very serious, but they are like Q events. Once you let it out of the bottle, you have to put it back at the end too. That's why I always appreciated Q storylines. Q can mess EVERYTHING up way more than time travel. Yet each time the Q are used they are taken out of the bottle - played around with - and then put back in the bottle at the end. Even the Picard series achieved this. Lessons are learned, a few changes are made but most are made to the characters developing and evolving as people and learning about themselves and the universe, rather than changing it all. What changes that do happen are often on the personal level not the "Oh and we remade Starfleet and the Universe"


Of course you can also do Timetravel badly in that regard - like how Enterprise went from the founding of the Federation era and early first contacts to a Time War where you already know they have to win by the end (because we already know the future of the setting).

I liked how SNW managed to tackle "killing your own grandpa" and "killing baby Hitler" tropes in one go, beating even Futurama.

My ‘favorite’ take on altering timelines has to be when Molly fell into a time hole and then spent 10 years completely isolated, ending up feral and broken.

Miles: we can just reset the time thingy and beam her out before her ten life-ruining years of tortuous solitary confinement. *knowing thousand yard stare*

Doctor: That would be unethical. We can’t take those years from her. It would be like this gibbering shell never existed.

I still like my pet theory that the Mirror Universe is the true universe.

See, their actions match what we might expect. See alien spaceship, steal alien spaceship, figure out how it works, head out into the stars to steal more tech.

That’s Dirty Little Tech Monkey 101. Spesh given they were survivors of a horrendous war suddenly passed a shiny new weapon.

And it was a causal loop of The Borg’s failed attack, and Cochran finding out “then we become this wonderful thing, and spread peace and plenty” that stayed their hands, creating the “Prime” universe.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So we’re more than halfway through DS9, and would like to check out Picard S3 and Lower Decks next. Which TNG episodes do you feel are essential viewing for a newcomer before moving on to those series?

Have you watched Voyager? Unfortunately, you could make the case you need to watch almost all of Voyager to watch Picard. At least when 7 of 9 becomes part of the cast.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So we’re more than halfway through DS9, and would like to check out Picard S3 and Lower Decks next. Which TNG episodes do you feel are essential viewing for a newcomer before moving on to those series?

Have you watched Voyager? Unfortunately, you could make the case you need to watch almost all of Voyager to watch Picard. At least when 7 of 9 becomes part of the cast.

I think she carries herself well in the Picard series, but I do agree if you've no understanding of who she is she will seem somewhat hollow in Picard because she's presented and used as a mature character, not a fresh new one.

 Overread wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So we’re more than halfway through DS9, and would like to check out Picard S3 and Lower Decks next. Which TNG episodes do you feel are essential viewing for a newcomer before moving on to those series?

Have you watched Voyager? Unfortunately, you could make the case you need to watch almost all of Voyager to watch Picard. At least when 7 of 9 becomes part of the cast.

I think she carries herself well in the Picard series, but I do agree if you've no understanding of who she is she will seem somewhat hollow in Picard because she's presented and used as a mature character, not a fresh new one.

Ya, in fact she might be the best of Picard just like she was the best part of Voyager.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So we’re more than halfway through DS9, and would like to check out Picard S3 and Lower Decks next. Which TNG episodes do you feel are essential viewing for a newcomer before moving on to those series?

Have you watched Voyager? Unfortunately, you could make the case you need to watch almost all of Voyager to watch Picard. At least when 7 of 9 becomes part of the cast.

I think she carries herself well in the Picard series, but I do agree if you've no understanding of who she is she will seem somewhat hollow in Picard because she's presented and used as a mature character, not a fresh new one.

Ya, in fact she might be the best of Picard just like she was the best part of Voyager.

She does really well in Picard and honestly I'd love to see her captain her own ship on a series!

In fact its such a Trek thing that someone who basically got brought in because the producers wanted "big boobies sell" went on to just star because of her acting and character. It would be awesome to see her then as the series lead in an exploratory season .

They've started pre-production on the Section 31 movie.

Seriously, that antitrek gak is getting a movie?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My ‘favorite’ take on altering timelines has to be when Molly fell into a time hole and then spent 10 years completely isolated, ending up feral and broken.

Miles: we can just reset the time thingy and beam her out before her ten life-ruining years of tortuous solitary confinement. *knowing thousand yard stare*

Doctor: That would be unethical. We can’t take those years from her. It would be like this gibbering shell never existed.

Meanwhile, on Voyager: "feth this Tuvix who is a separate, conscious entity to the beings that he was accidentally created from, kill him and get us those two back."

Janeway was unstable. Even Kate Mulgrew realized this, and apparently leaned into it.

Janeway really only became a character I liked in Prodigy, where she was out of focus enough you could just enjoy her absolute MOM energy but she wasn't constantly flipping her moral principles incoherently.

 LordofHats wrote:
Janeway really only became a character I liked in Prodigy, where she was out of focus enough you could just enjoy her absolute MOM energy but she wasn't constantly flipping her moral principles incoherently.

But that's just a hologram of Janeway... The holodeck AI probably stabilized her personality.

You see Janeway Janeway too and she's also enjoyable.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My ‘favorite’ take on altering timelines has to be when Molly fell into a time hole and then spent 10 years completely isolated, ending up feral and broken.

Miles: we can just reset the time thingy and beam her out before her ten life-ruining years of tortuous solitary confinement. *knowing thousand yard stare*

Doctor: That would be unethical. We can’t take those years from her. It would be like this gibbering shell never existed.

Meanwhile, on Voyager: "feth this Tuvix who is a separate, conscious entity to the beings that he was accidentally created from, kill him and get us those two back."

You make it sound like saving two friends is an irrational choice (and their loss trivial or irrelevant) rather than blindly hoping that a hybridized industrial accident will magically work out over the long term (or even the medium-to-short term), and that any potential physical or mental complications simply won't happen (with no real ability to predict if the fusion will stick or be benign). Transporter accidents tend not to have a happy history.

Think I might rewatch SNW.

I enjoyed it, but outside of the Stunt Episodes*, I don’t really recall much. Mind you, I only recall DS9 because I’ve watched it so often.


*note to the writers. Klingon Opera is a thing. You didn’t have to make them do contemporary drivel for the overall theme to work.

SNW is pretty fun.

Not sure how much damage its premise that Vulcan society is basically a non stop sitcom where everybody is Sheldon Cooper will do to the property in the long run, but it's fun.

Voss wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My ‘favorite’ take on altering timelines has to be when Molly fell into a time hole and then spent 10 years completely isolated, ending up feral and broken.

Miles: we can just reset the time thingy and beam her out before her ten life-ruining years of tortuous solitary confinement. *knowing thousand yard stare*

Doctor: That would be unethical. We can’t take those years from her. It would be like this gibbering shell never existed.

Meanwhile, on Voyager: "feth this Tuvix who is a separate, conscious entity to the beings that he was accidentally created from, kill him and get us those two back."

You make it sound like saving two friends is an irrational choice (and their loss trivial or irrelevant) rather than blindly hoping that a hybridized industrial accident will magically work out over the long term (or even the medium-to-short term), and that any potential physical or mental complications simply won't happen (with no real ability to predict if the fusion will stick or be benign). Transporter accidents tend not to have a happy history.

I think arguing that a sentient, conscious being, capable of making its own choices and voicing its own desires, can be killed on the basis of hypothetical potential physical or mental complications is immoral and unethical. This also isn't the only time that Janeway did this either. Her forcibly disconnecting 7 of 9 from the Borg, against 7's own wishes, and refusing to return her afterwards, again against 7's own wishes, was also a denial of autonomy. You can argue that 7 was better off outside the Borg, but was that Janeway's choice to make? White slavers made the argument that slavery in western nations was better for african people than freedom in their own countries, that it was for their own good to be enslaved so they could be "civilised", the wishes of the slave were discarded as others "knew better".

Let's reframe it. Two crew members are dead, Janeway is offered the choice to bring them back by sacrificing a different crew member. That crew member does not wish to be sacrificed, and rightly points out that they are a sentient being and have all the rights of any other member of the federation, she kills them anyway. That is what happened. The crew of the Enterprise didn't just decide to kill the alternate Riker created by a transporter accident in case he caused problems in the future. They recognised that he was a being protected by the laws of the Federation.

It raises the question of are we okay with authority stripping people of their own right to self determination, of their own right to exist?

On the Tuvix issue?

It’s not like William and Thomas Riker, and how that split came about, wasn’t known.

I’ll freely grant and accept that’s something of a longshot. Right planet, right circumstances. But repeatable.

Mind you, if I was Janeway or literally anyone aboard Voyager, it’s only Tuvok I might want back.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It raises the question of are we okay with authority stripping people of their own right to self determination, of their own right to exist?

If they aren't human, regardless of the airs they put on, absolutely: veryone know only humans have souls.

If a slave wants to remain with their abusive owner is it right to separate them by force; or to allow their return to their owner?

Many would argue that its in the best long term interests that the slave be separated, educated and given their independence.


Thus you can make the same argument for 7 of 9 being forcefully kept away from the Borg. She was captured by them as an infant and was never given choice. Once part of the Borg she had zero free will and choice in her life. That's not just akin to slavery, that's almost perfect slavery.




So if anything preventing her from returning to the Borg, even if it caused her short term pains, was indeed the right choice for the general morality of Starfleet.




Also lets not forget, short term alliances of desperation aside, the Federation is at War with the Borg. Whilst its not like the Dominion War, mostly because the Borg are so far away, the Borg and Federation are not and have never been at peace. The closest you get is ex-borg who are released from the collective and the unique setup established in Picard Season 2 where a separate splinter of the Borg evolved which based their assimilation on choice rather than force. It likely raises the question of if the Borg term should be a racial or social one

Tuvix was a good example of what Voyager could have been if the writers hadn't been lazy or afraid.

Voyager should have been taking losses and adding new members to the crew even as background characters.
Difficult decisions should have been commonplace not the rarity.

I'm not saying it should have been a gritty edgefest with psycho maniacs but the fact that the Maquis crew turn Starfleet almost immediately is pretty insane.

Throw in the fact that the end crew manifest is actually higher than the original and the casualties are basically equal, nothing ever actually seems to go wrong for Voyager.

At least by Enterprise, the writers learned how to do it properly with the Xindi arc.

The core problem with Voyage is that the producers basically wanted to do Season 1-2 style TNG. Yet they gave it more of a Battle Star style of setup.

It also followed the super strong story telling of DS9. So basically they set everything up for a long story arc with loads of changes and struggles and then just kind of tried to make it alien of the week.


The result was a bit messy because you never really felt them struggle or survive; nor the strains of two crews thrust together or anything. You got the odd episode; but by the next one Voyager would be repaired up; the crew healed and the only real sense of difference was that Kneelix happened to grow food for them (which in itself always felt strained because replicators).

You never even got things like the interior of the ship changing much save for when they added Seven. Everything is neat, tidy and ship-shape. No open panels or rigged up bits of equipment because they ran out of X or Y


Honestly for some reason the show producers keep wanting to do Alien of the week and that's totally fine. The problem is they keep thinking that everything is explored everywhere so they keep throwing mad ideas as the wall. Other side of the Galaxy; alternate timelines; historical shows etc... The vastness of space escapes their imagination somewhat as they've given a sense that everything is known, explored and discovered.


They could easily have done a ship through the Wormhole exploring the far reaches of the Delta Quadrant.

As I’ve wibbled about before? They should’ve leant into the BSG type thing.

Voyager is pulled through as happens. But, thanks to its neural gel pack things, suffers significantly less damage than the other ships which have also been pulled through. Period of negotiations and that tech is shared with the others, leading to a rag-tag fleet of Alpha and perhaps Beta Quadrant ships beginning the long voyage home.

From there you have a wider pool of crews, the potential for clashing cultures and personalities. Ships and crews can be lost, technology purloined and developed and so on and so forth.

Ships from different eras too.

Yeah, Voyager should have been “Year of Hell” the whole way through.

On the timeline changes, I always like the approach taking in Dune; time has momentum and although you might alter minor details, it takes a really significant interference (or interference at a very key point) to change the general flow. MDG’s head cannon for prime vs mirror universe works well in that context.

The 'banned' Star Trek episode that promised a united Ireland - BBC.