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I think so. Too many people are quitting, not enough people are joining.

I love it when people make threads like this.

DnD has taken quite a hit since video gaming has come into play, and MMO's, but its not something that will completely die out. DnD has been a game thats effectively been 'passed down' in generations so to speak, it will be reccomended, people will tease and try it out. And thats what keeps it going.

4.0 has also pissed off quite a bit of 'regulars' with the massive changes made to the system and thats cut down a lot of people, but there will always be another generation that had been 'introduced' into DnD with the latest version. People will adjust, get used to it and enjoy it. This all had happened with 1.0, 2.0, 3.0/3.5 and etc. Its a repeating process as the system is changed.

Until the rampant christian parent groups saying "DND IS THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL" and make it outlawed, somehow. DnD is here to stay.

I'm sorry, but has it ever been alive? I'm pretty sure DnD is an "underground," private game shared between friends. Some areas have more players than others. Someone will always be playing, and frankly I'd rather it stay a private game than be something mainstream so it keeps more of it's quirkiness.

We can all blame hasbro for that they have been determand to kill it ever since they bought it!

On some D&D boards there's talk of how the parent company really doesn't care about the 'pen and paper' side of D&D anymore - to the point where some people, including many who were initially involved with developing the ORIGINAL D&D!, think that the time might be coming soon when they sell off the rights to the 'pen and paper' side of things, and for not that much money, all things considered...

I think someone cares, considering they still release a metric ton of books compared to most companies!

Role-playing games are in a weird place right now as I understand it. A lot of the 'big names' for what was always a small niche are in what can charitably be called a 'regrouping' position. WotC has dropped the Star Wars RPG, White Wolf has slowed their release schedule a bit, and Steve Jackson Games has admitted they make more from Munchkkin than GURPS these days.

Some 2nd tier companies are doing OK, and there's a lot of small indie companies... And, really, many of the 2nd tier companies are not much bigger than the indie companies.

Like many niche hobbies (like, you know, wargaming) there's a lot of turmoil as the economy sucks and the industry has to evolve into a stable position. Gamers need to hope it doesn't evolve into dead. 'Cause dead is stable, but it's not much fun.

The 90s was really a boom period for RPGs. There were a lot of small companies putting out their own game lines or d20 materials. It was not at all uncommon for even less-well-known game lines to release a new source book every couple of months. That's not practical now: it's both financially unsound, and would turn off the fans as previous abuses by various companies make that kind of release schedule seem like a cash-grab. The market seems to be favoring bigger, self-contained games these days.

It'll probably rebound, but it could be a while.

Anyone got any publishing/sales figures for WotC? I suspect they're at least as big as GW, if not bigger.

they're still the #1 RPG on the market according to ICN but they didn't specifically list the % marketshare. i won't believe the rumors that it's "dying" until d&d drops to #2 for the first time ever. IIRC, pathfinder was number 2 this past quarter. that being said, i don't like 4e and my gaming group's opinion was unanimous. we dropped 4e and went to pathfinder after trying it out for 5 levels. the DM and I both bought 1-2 WOTC rpg books per month for the entirety of 3/3.5 and they've made almost nothing from us since 4e (we bought the core book sets when it was released and that's it). now that star wars RPG/minis are cancelled (in addition to 3.5 d&d and DDM skirmish), i've effectively been abandoned by WOTC.

I'd love to see sales figures, especially ones that compare D&D and Pathfinder.

And hell, all available RPGs numbers!

I realise this does not really address the OP directly. sorry if this is a silly question, but:

If the fans don't like the 4th Ed why not continue to play a previous ed?

I am assuming that most (A)D&D takes place in a domestic situation, but surely eeven gaming clubs could choose to play with preferred rules if they wished.

that's what a large number are doing. some are playing 3.5 while others want a bit of a change so they're playing 3.75/pathfinder (that's what we did).

We can certainly do that, but that will certainly speed D&D's demise, if it is indeed heading that way, wouldn't it?

Whilst I can see your point Alpharius, if ed 4 is unpopular then it probably won't get played just to keep D&D alive.

If people are playing an earlier version then she still lives and breathes!

Alpharius wrote:We can certainly do that, but that will certainly speed D&D's demise, if it is indeed heading that way, wouldn't it?

it wouldn't speed D&D's demise, but it might 4th ed's. the only "negative" effect would be the early introduction of 5th edition. as someone who is skipping out on this edition, i'm ok with that. there is zero chance that hasbro/wotc would just give up on d&d after one possibly underperforming edition.

Actualy D&D has died once already when TSR went under. There was a giant What? from the comuity and then we went, we will still play it.
Then the Magic Pikachu saved the game and we have been hearing that the game has died or is being killed.
I think if those who "Hate" 4e are some of those that feel the game has been dead for a long time.

I guess I still don't understand how an underground game can "die." What's the difference between a "dead" game and a "living" game?

warboss wrote:

Alpharius wrote:We can certainly do that, but that will certainly speed D&D's demise, if it is indeed heading that way, wouldn't it?

it wouldn't speed D&D's demise, but it might 4th ed's. the only "negative" effect would be the early introduction of 5th edition. as someone who is skipping out on this edition, i'm ok with that. there is zero chance that hasbro/wotc would just give up on d&d after one possibly underperforming edition.

they would make 4.5, fix all the problems and then make 2000 books each one breaking the system more and more until it is nigh on unplayable except by powergamers. hmmmm Déjà vu

there is nothing wrong with 4e. if you don't like it play another edition/game. really isn't that hard.

wanted to add that the last part isn't aimed at you Warboss just all the people who piss and moan every day about it. Pretty sure you know what I mean.

They do not plan on making 4.5 or 5e at the moment.
The plan is/was to suport it heavly online.
If rules changes need to be made they can be made On-Line and then when the next printing of whatever book the changes was printed, it would be with the updates [I would love GW to do this].
They are going on the assumption that at least one person in each group is Internest savy and has a WotC account.

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:there is nothing wrong with 4e. if you don't like it play another edition/game. really isn't that hard.

wanted to add that the last part isn't aimed at you Warboss just all the people who piss and moan every day about it. Pretty sure you know what I mean.

that's exactly what my group unanimously did. we all didn't like the changes so opted for pathfinder. if you works for others, good for them. the point of gaming is to have fun so if someone is enjoining 4e while i enjoy 3.75e, then power to us all. as for the pissing and moaning, that's what the internet is for! al gore designed it for that very reason in the 1970's... that and porn but he doesn't like to talk about that part..

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I guess I still don't understand how an underground game can "die." What's the difference between a "dead" game and a "living" game?

I don't think D&D is exactly "underground" when you can walk into national book seller chains and be nearly guaranteed to find all the books. This is like saying M:TG or H. P. Lovecraft stories are underground.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I guess I still don't understand how an underground game can "die." What's the difference between a "dead" game and a "living" game?

I depends on who is playing it.

warboss wrote:

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:there is nothing wrong with 4e. if you don't like it play another edition/game. really isn't that hard.

wanted to add that the last part isn't aimed at you Warboss just all the people who piss and moan every day about it. Pretty sure you know what I mean.

that's exactly what my group unanimously did. we all didn't like the changes so opted for pathfinder. if you works for others, good for them. the point of gaming is to have fun so if someone is enjoining 4e while i enjoy 3.75e, then power to us all. as for the pissing and moaning, that's what the internet is for! al gore designed it for that very reason in the 1970's... that and porn but he doesn't like to talk about that part..

which is what I was intending to say. just because i don't like 3.5 or pathfinder doesn't make it bad (well it does for me, but that is a group issue, not a system issue really). not every system is for every person. doesn't make them bad (which was my intent, sorry I didn't make that very clear). I'm personally just tired of the 4e bashing. I don't go out of my way to bash Pathfinder or 3.5, you know what I mean?

NOTE: All "you"s are general not directed at Warboss. Wanted to make that clear.


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Manchu wrote:I don't think D&D is exactly "underground" when you can walk into national book seller chains and be nearly guaranteed to find all the books. This is like saying M:TG or H. P. Lovecraft stories are underground.

Magic is far from underground, HP Lovecraft isn't very well known though. Here in Florida (don't know about the rest of the United States) his works aren't in the Curriculum. In addition, There hasn't been a major Hollywood production involving him (aside from Reanimator, which was awesome).

Lovecraft's works, like the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide, can be found in any Barnes & Noble in America. Maybe they're obscure compared to Twilight but underground? Hardly.

ohh yeah, but they aren't very well known, doesn't make them underground but it makes them obscure, which was my point.

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:Magic is far from underground, HP Lovecraft isn't very well known though. Here in Florida (don't know about the rest of the United States) his works aren't in the Curriculum. In addition, There hasn't been a major Hollywood production involving him (aside from Reanimator, which was awesome).

I think Guillermo Del Toro is working on At The Mountains of Madness. The lack of memorable and accurate HP Lovecraft movies is probably a mix of obscurity and difficulty in filming the movies so the look convincing.The HP Lovecraft Historical Society has done some great low=budget indie versions, too!

Call of Cthulhu being one. pretty much made of astronomically epic win.

I think it's interesting to note that the majority of people who know nothing about DnD (normal people who play sports and hang out drinking energy drinks,lol) think of DnD as the dorkiest thing possble. I hate this.

This misconception is what keeps new players from joining. If everyone thinks of DnD as the epitome of "Dork-dom", how can they count on new players joining?

My grandfather, for instance, utterly hates D&D. He thinks of it as a plauge, a drug, a lifestyle that you can't escape from, the worse possible thing you can do in life. Being a moderate player, I could care less how he feels about my hobbies.

But he's not the only one! Almost everyone I know thinks of D&D like this! I find this utterly shocking....I can't even tell people what book I carry around. It's always like:
"What's that book you're reading?"
"um,the D&D players handbook"
"wtf are you reading that for???"
"cuz I like to play it sometimes, and I'm rolling a wizard"
"Seriously, I'm never talking to you again.Dork"

Samus_aran115 wrote:I think it's interesting to note that the majority of people who know nothing about DnD (normal people who play sports and hang out drinking energy drinks,lol) think of DnD as the dorkiest thing possble. I hate this.

This misconception is what keeps new players from joining. If everyone thinks of DnD as the epitome of "Dork-dom", how can they count on new players joining?

My grandfather, for instance, utterly hates D&D. He thinks of it as a plauge, a drug, a lifestyle that you can't escape from, the worse possible thing you can do in life. Being a moderate player, I could care less how he feels about my hobbies.

But he's not the only one! Almost everyone I know thinks of D&D like this! I find this utterly shocking....I can't even tell people what book I carry around. It's always like:
"What's that book you're reading?"
"um,the D&D players handbook"
"wtf are you reading that for???"
"cuz I like to play it sometimes, and I'm rolling a wizard"
"Seriously, I'm never talking to you again.Dork"

Just keep your sense of humor

my old roommate asked me once when i was headed out to a D&D game what i had in my duffel bag. i told her it was the books and minis that i needed to run the game (i was the DM) and she was noticably relieved. she then asked me if i sometimes carried my tights in there... and was serious. she actually thought most gamers ran around in tights like an old robin hood movie.

The hobbies that most of us have chosen are certainly 'misunderstood' at best.

I think we all knew, either at 'sign on' or shortly thereafter, that we were going to have to tolerate a certain amount of ridicule and/or scorn.

Happily, I don't think most of us care!