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I don't mean underground as in you can't find books, I mean underground as in you don't walk into McDonalds and see people playing DnD. You don't typically play DnD for family Christmas get-togethers like you might monopoly or checkers or something. For the most part you see it played in people's houses or sometimes at nerd stores. The average American has and will never see a DnD game in action. I still haven't gotten an answer as to the difference of it being alive or dead yet.

tru dat, i just keep quiet about my geeky hobbies at school and such.

This is something that stops being a problem as soon as you grow up. Self-consciousness about how geeky or immature our hobbies seem always reminds me of that awesome quote from C. S. Lewis:

Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

Back in the 80s, real stigma for D&D (ideas that it was connected to satanism, or suicide) were much more common, but it was a popular fad and you could probably find a group easily at every town and most high schools in America.

I had NO problems with any of the 'problems' back in the day.

My parents had no problem with my AD&D and Gamma World gaming.

No one ever worried about suicide due to RPGs, and I never heard a hint of Satanism either!

Maybe I was just lucky, or had awesome parents.

Or maybe the 'witch hunts' over D&D were more hype than reality?

Either way - that is an AWESOME quote Mannahnin!

I've been D&Ding since 1978, the only time I've had an interesting reaction was in the 90's we played at a friend's house and his flatmate while interested in what we were doing and watching suddenly blurted out "how do you buy all the books and dice if the game is illegal?" We just looked at her and burst into laughter. She weathered the laughter with good humour and then we explained the game and what some of the media issues had been. She didn't play but at least she was a little more informed.

As for the 4.0 vs 3.5 debate, I currently play both and enjoy both, and for us its all about being with your friends and having a good time, no matter what the game system.

I doubt DnD will ever die. After all, I'm still having fun with it, as are a great deal of my friends, their friends and their friend's friends, and as long as that happens, it lives. Also, I tried out 4 and although I prefer 3.5, I still found it enjoyable. It's all about the kind of player you are.

I think the Player Dynamics have changed to.
My group concists of.
-Old Scholl Player from the late 70's, who hates everthing since 1st edition
-Myself a Gamer who enjoys both RPGs and Wargames
-A Player from the Early 80's who still is confused and does not rememeber the summer of 68
-A Practicing Wiccan who started to play in the late 80's and cant roll dice to save his life, but always seems to land the finishing blow
,-A player from the early 90's that is all about the story.
Abd the 2 New guys to the Group
-Played back in 2nd and has come back into 4th and is loving it.
-The realy new guy, he has PRG'd through his life, but only on Computersd and now is have a great time with the Pen and Paper side.

I had an uncle whose family was very conservative Christian, and one time at a holiday gathering when I brought it up he shut down the conversation with something about “we don’t talk about things like that.” When I was little I remember a couple of adult babysitters who also had heard satanic rumors and such. No serious problems, but I became directly aware of the crazy stuff folks had heard.

I have had friends and gaming buddies whose own parents burned their books, trashed their miniatures, (etc.) during the 80s hysteria, though. Some people really got the wrong idea, and took it way, way, too far. Pat Pulling is a particularly sad and extreme case. Note that the following article by RPG designing great Mike Stackpole is from 1990.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

I find it hard to believe that cristians actually believe in some of the things they say. sometimes I just think they try to start trouble....D&D?Satanic? Do they complain about 40k because it's spreading the emperor's god-like influence and faith? gawd I'm glad organized religion isn't part of my life....

Samus_aran115 wrote:I find it hard to believe that cristians actually believe in some of the things they say. sometimes I just think they try to start trouble....D&D?Satanic? Do they complain about 40k because it's spreading the emperor's god-like influence and faith? gawd I'm glad organized religion isn't part of my life....

They might IF 40K was any where near as popular as D&D was back in the 1980's.

You have to remember, you could find D&D stuff (rule books, modules, dice, accessories, etc.) EVERYWHERE, in all the major chain stores too!

GW stuff and wargaming in general hasn't even come close to approaching the place where D&D was (youch!) 30 years ago...

Samus_aran115 wrote:I find it hard to believe that cristians actually believe in some of the things they say. sometimes I just think they try to start trouble....D&D?Satanic? Do they complain about 40k because it's spreading the emperor's god-like influence and faith? gawd I'm glad organized religion isn't part of my life....

I think there was a group basically doing this discussed on dakkadakka aa year ago or so. Basically, some watchdog group that sees the Chaos/Daemon stuff and assumes it is immoral.

*Snort*
I like the comments Michael Stackpole makes about the alignment system having no relevance to Satanism. What this Pulling woman says about it is moronic; most of my group went for neutral/good in the good/evil stakes.

Remember it’s not about Christianity. Most Christians are perfectly nice and reasonable folks. Problems like this arise from intolerant and ignorant fundamentalists, no matter what religion or creed they follow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

Mannahnin wrote:Remember it’s not about Christianity. Most Christians are perfectly nice and reasonable folks. Problems like this arise from intolerant and ignorant fundamentalists, no matter what religion or creed they follow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

Fair enough, man. I know many Christians who play this sort of thing, even a few who prefer evil characters. It's just a shame when it gets blown out of proportion.

On the plus side, I'm dead sure that the panic helped it sell millions more copies in the 80s and make it the fad it was. Any game/hobby that comes across as dangerous or forbidden to kids is naturally more attractive.

Catholic who plays D&D here. And yes, I have had to deal with other Christians/Catholics being judgmental for "moral" reasons. I find that they are generally douches in other aspects of their lives, however, and can't pin this particular douchiness on religion. Concerning mainstream religions at least, the truth is that most people bring their baggage to religion rather than the religion sticking them with baggage. I assure you that nothing whatsoever in the teachings of Jesus Christ or the Catholic Church has anything at all to do with playing a game of D&D.

Manchu wrote:Catholic who plays D&D here. And yes, I have had to deal with other Christians/Catholics being judgmental for "moral" reasons. I find that they are generally douches in other aspects of their lives, however, and can't pin this particular douchiness on religion. Concerning mainstream religions at least, the truth is that most people bring their baggage to religion rather than the religion sticking them with baggage. I assure you that nothing whatsoever in the teachings of Jesus Christ or the Catholic Church has anything at all to do with playing a game of D&D.

I'm pretty sure Jesus was the best DM of all time, actually.
I jest! But seriously, I have to agree with you. It's a little too easy to label groups, despite the massive flaws in doing so.

In response to the question about the death of DnD, My opinion is that it is dying.

I for one got tired of the whole, "ew, new editions are coming out." So everyone would rush to get all the new books. Then as you start to get things together and you have all the books to play well, "Eww, a new edition is coming out.".
Sorry I am not a rich man that can spend hundreds of bucks every couple of years on new books.

I have been playing since the 2nd edition and I probably have 95% of all of the 2nd edition stuff. I saw no reason to rush out and buy new books every couple of years.
Sure each edition may have fixed issues with the one before but I felt like 2nd edition was like an old worn out T-shirt that I just could not seem to trash because it was so comfortable.

Anyway, all my friends that used to play had all moved away and I really had not found any reason to try to play anymore until my brother found a program called "Fantasy Grounds".
If you have not seen this it is pretty cool. It runs on the new rules and is totally online. It basically turns your PC into a tabletop. With the addition of ventrilo to this and we have had some really fun sessions with this.
We got most of our old players back and a few new ones as well. With Fantasy Grounds I have been dragged kicking and screaming into the new rules but so far am not disappointed.

Here give it a look see.

http://www.fantasygrounds.com/

So yes I think it is dying but I am also seeing it taken in new directions. I for one hope these new directions can help breath life back into the ole girl.

As far as Editions it is one of the slowest to get new ones.
It has been around since the mid-70s and it has only recently gotten to 4th.

Look at alot of other games that have come around including wargames.
Warhammer: 8th is coming around the corner
WH40k: there is already talk of a 6th.

Anpu42 wrote:As far as Editions it is one of the slowest to get new ones.
It has been around since the mid-70s and it has only recently gotten to 4th.

Look at alot of other games that have come around including wargames.
Warhammer: 8th is coming around the corner
WH40k: there is already talk of a 6th.

It is just as expensive as a hobby too.

Well I think we are talking about two different things, there's D&D the franchise, which is all the books and the profitability of WotC. This can probably be ascertained from their financial reports rather than anecdotes about who is playing. Perhaps the publishers of D&D will, one day, go under. Whether they do has almost no relation to whether or not friends will continue to get together to tell collaborative stories with a loose set of rules- this will never go away. All this talk of particular 'systems' killing D&D makes me laugh. I just ran a 1st edition module with a set of 4th edition characters. It really wasn't hard. They are stories, people. The rules are a framework- making a story with your friends is all that matters, and nothing a publisher does or does not do will ever change this.

Also +! on the guy who quoted CS Lewis. As I've grown older I've found that people really stop caring 'what you're into', and if they do make negative judgments I find I don't much care about them.

Anecdotally, D&D is bigger now than it's ever been. At comedy fest this year they had THREE shows dedicated to D&D- and that's for lay audiences (all of them sold out). I myself am in three different groups and am aware of at least four more in my circle of friends. I don't think it's going anywhere.

I got through runing the Village of Homlet [both the reworked 1st ed and the 4e] and it worked well. I am currently trying to make both the Temple of Elemental Evil and Ilse of Dread into 4th.

Hmm,my opinion on 4th is probably a reasonable one...

Look at what they're competing against: ONLINE GAMES!People are losing interest in physical, time-consuming affairs. Why play DnD when you can go play WoW? Seriously. It's a dwindling audience. There's a limit to how much people will pay to play a good game. Maybe if WotC stopped making every single book at least 30$,they might sell more!

I don't feel compelled to play beyond the Player's handbook, when the martial power book is 35$! Give me a break!

Anyway,game-wise,my opinion is "different,not better or worse" I like certain aspects of both 3.5 and 4th.
3.5th wasn't as combat oriented,more focus on skills and improving the personality and "guts" of your character. 4th, is obviously more combat oriented,less emphasis on personal qualities and skills.

I like combat, a lot! It makes games more exciting than doing the same exact thing every round. But I also like being able to personalize your character more. The lack of tose lost alignments is killing me! What if I want to be Lawful evil???

Samus_aran115 wrote:Hmm,my opinion on 4th is probably a reasonable one...

Look at what they're competing against: ONLINE GAMES!People are losing interest in physical, time-consuming affairs. Why play DnD when you can go play WoW? Seriously. It's a dwindling audience. There's a limit to how much people will pay to play a good game. Maybe if WotC stopped making every single book at least 30$,they might sell more!

I don't feel compelled to play beyond the Player's handbook, when the martial power book is 35$! Give me a break!

Anyway,game-wise,my opinion is "different,not better or worse" I like certain aspects of both 3.5 and 4th.
3.5th wasn't as combat oriented,more focus on skills and improving the personality and "guts" of your character. 4th, is obviously more combat oriented,less emphasis on personal qualities and skills.

I like combat, a lot! It makes games more exciting than doing the same exact thing every round. But I also like being able to personalize your character more. The lack of tose lost alignments is killing me! What if I want to be Lawful evil???

Dude, all you need to say is, "I don't feel like paying for two hobbies so I won't buy extra D&D books." Martial Power wasn't $35 btw, it was $30. The current trend with PnP RPG is ~$35-40 for the corer books and ~$30 for supplements, less for ones that aren't as large, such as the race supplements. If I want to build a decent character for a D&D 4E game I need the PHB, The supplement that goes with it and maybe another PHB (2 or 3) or One of the "loot books" (Adventurer's Vault 1 and 2). With all of these books Retailing at a maximum of ~$130, You are about $50 more than your 2 basic books for 40k, both of which are getting a price jump soon probably bringning it closer to only $40 or so over. But with those 4 books you have more than enough material to build quite a few characters and customize quite a bit. Where as you can't do anything wtih the $83.00 you just spent on the 40k rule book and <insert codex here> without shelling out another almost $400 for an army.

I'm sorry if I came off snarky, that wasn't my intention. My intention was to demonstrate for that that do not know, not saying you are one of them, that the TTRPG hoby is just as expensive as wargaming can be. Some games suggest miniatures, others don't. Adding figures to the cost brings it up quite a bit. Etc, Etc.

I spend maybe $90 a year on RPGs (not including my PDF purchases), none on MMOs anymore and ~$100 on WHFB and Hordes.


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Oh and if you want to play LE play Evil. They are the same thing. Remember how CN was the true evil for 3.5 (not truly evil but you could get away with everything and blame it on being a free spirit)? Unaligned is that now. Either UA or Evil work fine for it.

Samus_aran115 wrote: "different,not better or worse"

that is how I feel about the new rules and such.

As someone stated earlier the rule books are a guideline.

For this reason I have kept using 2nd ed. Yes it has problems but we have house rules that handle all the headaches.

I started playing RPG's when I was at university a few years ago. We very briefly played D&D just before 4th edition, but my group was more interested in D20 and Star Wars RPG (ew). But then I left university have have not played since.

I'd love to get back into it. Even found a gaming store that carries it and has games nights, but I've just not had the time/motivation to go down there and find out what is going on. Though I did post on their facebook group a while ago, I've still not got a reply (in over a month ).

I will go down there eventually though

Bravo c34r. It is also important to note the difference in the cost that you incur vs the MMO model. Unless you are playing on a lifetime membership (which is rarely offered with MMOs) you are paying at least 10 dollars a month, possibly as much as 15. That translates to 120 to 180 a year. I'd be hard pressed to find 120 dollars worth of RPG product to purchase for a single game over the course of a year as a GM (DM). As a new player, I can see the cost approaching 100 dollars if you really wanted to make a particular character, and somehow no one else in your group had the book you needed.

I remember that back when I started, I put down 10 bucks for a set of dice, borrowed a core book and rolled up a character. When he died, I realized I probably ought to know more of these 'rules' and got the PHB for 35 or 40 dollars. I don't recall purchasing an expansion or specialty book for over a year, and I still hadn't played all of the options from the core book.

To say that you need to put out 150 to start is just silly. The equivalent would be claiming that you need 500 dollars to start 40k, because that's what you need for a decent mechanized list at 1850. A highly specialized character is inappropriate for most beginners. Your new 40k players will happily beat each other up at 500 pts with AOBr for a few weeks, then start rapidly accruing paints, models, and expanding. They won't become competitive for years, in most cases. Any PnP RPG is going to have a similar learning curve, and a much slower purchase curve.

Shameless promotion follows this sentence.

Especially if that game is Hackmaster basic, which has a digital download of the complete rules and everything you need to GM or play for 15 dollars over at kenzerco.

Gitzbitah wrote: I'd be hard pressed to find 120 dollars worth of RPG product to purchase for a single game over the course of a year as a GM (DM).

i used to buy a d&d book every two months on average back in the 3.5 days before WOTC dumped me as a customer. that's not including the $200 or so i'd spend on d&d minis every 4 months when they'd come out with a new set (i've got a complete collection of the first 8ish sets). i was playing in one campaign and GM'ing in another and would pretty much buy any forgotten realms or core book they came out with. rabid palladium fans buy up anything the company comes out with for rifts and they're averaging a book every month or two (albeit at a lower price range). you might be hard pressed but other may not be. i've had my gaming purchases cut by 75% compared with 2 years ago just by virtue of WOTC discontinuing everything i've liked from them (3.5, DDM skirmish, Star Wars minis and RPG).

That sounds like more than 'one game' to me. As I recall, the minis were a separate game.

Were all of those supplements for the same setting? I know in the heyday of d20 you could buy a book every month, but for one campaign that number seems a bit excessive. I could be wrong, I didn't play 3.5 DnD.

It seems like your on the opposite end of the spectrum from where I am, warboss. Were you purchasing for one game, or collecting almost everything that came out from the company?

Gitzbitah wrote:That sounds like more than 'one game' to me. As I recall, the minis were a separate game.

Were all of those supplements for the same setting? I know in the heyday of d20 you could buy a book every month, but for one campaign that number seems a bit excessive. I could be wrong, I didn't play 3.5 DnD.

It seems like your on the opposite end of the spectrum from where I am, warboss. Were you purchasing for one game, or collecting almost everything that came out from the company?

considering i used the minis 3x every two weeks for the RPGs i was in and only 1-2x in the same period for the skirmish game, i'd say they were a part of the same game. all the PC minis except one were supplied by me and all the NPCs and monsters were from my collection during the games i ran. in the campaign i simply played in, i supplied more than half of the monsters and 2-3 PC minis on average. as for the books, wotc was coming out with 2-3 rpg books per month during most of the 3/3.5 time period. i generally bought the core books (like the "races of" series and the class books as well as MM1-4, DMG2, PHB2, etc) and pretty much all the forgotten realms books. i bought a single eberron book (the core book) but otherwise stayed away from other worlds as both campaigns i was involved with were in the FR. in essence, i was buying about a quarter or less (since i bought around 1 book every 2 months out of 4-6) of their D&D line. since they announced 4th ed (not since it came out but simply was announced), i've bought only a few minis from online singles dealers (as opposed to the complete sets or cases i used to buy) and only the 3 core books for 4th ed. i went from spending $600+ a year on D&D to less than $150 total in the past two years ($200 if you include my pathfinder book).