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Don't forget a few things though : a Lord of Change with Impossible Robe and -1dmg Warlord trait becomes a lot tougher, cutting Plasma damage by 66% and Lascannon by 47%.
Well, possibly I should try him again. I have both LoCh and Kairos (though an old small models) since old times but never used them in 8-th.
Pinks are definitely seem to be interesting but I'm not really sure whether they are worth the price. Basically we have a GEQ with a better save and assault 2 las-gun for almost twice the price. With Herald nearby they turn into GEQ with a better save and an assault 2 bolter, but still will die like a flies with their T3 and 1W. They are also pathetic in close combat and can not shoot after falling back. And their restricted Smite is a joke .
I don't know about Dying like flies, 4++ makes then twice as hardy as cultists and thus less bothered by moral. It's no mean feat shifting 50+ Pinkies. Also Splitting is far from useless if your running lots of Pinks, keeping even 40 points aside will mean you can split out 10 (5 blue, 5 Brimies) warm bodies as and when you need them or summon a scoring unit if they don't get used. Yes they are screwed against assault units but elite units will get tart pitted and swarms will take a pounding from overwatch (and ideally shooting the turn before).
The WarLord of Change is an interesting proposition, uses warlord trait, uses an artifact, exposes your warlord and doesn't seem to have great damage output, but really takes a pounding and will hopefully take the pressure off any other high T units you have. I'll going to give one a go soon and see if it warrants it's points cost.
mrhappyface wrote:What you looking at doing? Daemon soup? Chaos Soup? A specific Daemon faction? A specific God with daemons and CSM elements? Something else?
Whatever works best with the models I have at 750pts, with a minimum of new model purchases (I'm redoing my Sisters and GSC too so my hobby budget is a little tight). I had some success with mono-God Tzeentch in 7th but it seems like that's no longer an option due to psychic nerfs and the fact Nurgle got promoted to 8th Edition posterboy.
Soup would be cool. I have some old 13th Company Grey Hunters kitbashed from the Black Legion and Berzerker boxes, they could be repainted to serve as CSM in a pinch.
lindsay40k wrote:I should think those models are useable. Screamers aren’t terrible, pretty frightening on a dense cover table where they can leapfrog between blind spots. Hounds provide competent charges and deny the witch coverage. A Khorne or Tzeentch HQ of some sort will complement one of those units well. Though I think you’re a ways off from 750pts, so there’s plenty of room to think where you’d like to specialise. (Horrors are pretty nasty when you take 20+ and have them jump out of the Warp & rendezvous with a Herald.)
Thanks for this. Tzeentch Herald-wise, what's the best to use? The Chariot always seemed excessive to me (and in 7th they were dreadful), and it costs an absolute bomb, but neither the Disc nor the footslogger seem particularly resilient next to it. Is there a reason to use the Chariot or is it better to save points and just take a walkie Herald?
BBAP wrote: Whatever works best with the models I have at 750pts, with a minimum of new model purchases (I'm redoing my Sisters and GSC too so my hobby budget is a little tight). I had some success with mono-God Tzeentch in 7th but it seems like that's no longer an option due to psychic nerfs and the fact Nurgle got promoted to 8th Edition posterboy.
Soup would be cool. I have some old 13th Company Grey Hunters kitbashed from the Black Legion and Berzerker boxes, they could be repainted to serve as CSM in a pinch.
Mono-daemons are a bit lack luster in my opinion but they work great as supplements to their corresponding God legions:
Plaguebearers and their characters bring some nasty, resilient chaff that can put out a lot of damage that work great with DG slow moving ranged barrages. It really works as a creeping artillery sort of army.
Bloodletter bombs work wonders as in your face, chaff clearing, distraction Carnifexes that give the rest of a Khorne legion army chance to move up the board unscathed and not have to worry about bubblewrap when you get there.
Tzeentch daemons add some speed and pile on the already ludicrous amount of chaff clearing options TS have.
Slaanesh Daemons work in the same sort of way Khorne Daemons do but for a semi-shooting army. The speedy daemons can hold advancing forces up quickly to allow EC salvos to do their work.
I'd definitely recommend just picking a God and making some soup.
Thanks for this. Tzeentch Herald-wise, what's the best to use? The Chariot always seemed excessive to me (and in 7th they were dreadful), and it costs an absolute bomb, but neither the Disc nor the footslogger seem particularly resilient next to it. Is there a reason to use the Chariot or is it better to save points and just take a walkie Herald?
If I have the points spare, I'll go for the Chariot for the extra movement, the situational -1 to cast and the extra toughness. The Chariot's mobility really helped me in a game not long ago when I needed to get smite on a tank to bring it down before it got repaired again, without having to dedicate a melee unit into bringing it down.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Personal opinions: Disc Herald is *great* for flying over to some deep striking Horrors and souping up their shooting, and can escape should they get entangled in a melee.
Chariot Herald is certainly viable as part of a Tzeentch rushdown; can fly along with a DP and Screamers, buffing their melee, and *contributing* to a brawl with *non-melee specialist* units.
It's not going to break a Terminator shieldwall, but if (like me) you build it because you like the model, you're not lumbered with something that's unviably overcosted *right now*.
Walking Herald is a lot less flexible than disc herald; if you're wanting to use its aura buff to enhance Horror shooting, and you don't spend a Command Point making it Deep Strike, you're effectively anchoring your landing zones for the Horrors. Best used as a summoning option in niche Chaos Space Marine lists IMO.
If you like the fast paced approach, I suspect it'd be quite possible viable to build a viable 750pt list of two Outriders detachments, one Khorne, one Tzeentch, with a Jugger Herald or Karanak leading the former and a flying Herald of some stripe leading the latter. A few Furies here and there to fill out six fast attack & cover the rear against deep strikes & break up the template of solid Hounds & Screamers, and that'd be an interesting rushdown list.
So I am getting back into 40K after a long hiatus (left around the start of 5th ed), and looking to get back in. I am looking to do a mixed Tzeentch list. I have some old daemons, some new Thousand Sons, and some WFB/AoS stuff that's now in 40K apparently. 2K is what is mainly played at my club, but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around list building. Hoping for some example lists and general advice with my collection.
On the TS side I have:
Magnus the Red
2x Tzaangor Shamans
10x Scarab Occult Terminators w/ 2x Soulreapers (have the missile bits, but undecided on usefulness)
20x Tzaangors (melee variant)
6x Enlightened with bows
3x Enlightened with spears
Mutalith Vortex Beast
Daemons
Lord of Change w/ rod
Herald of Tzeentch w/ rod
The Changeling
Blue Scribes
20x Pink Horrors
30x Blue Horrors
30x Brimstone Horrors
6x Flamers
6x Screamers
2x Burning Chariots
Lastly I have a few more models that I might be able to get away with counts as (opinions welcome on that):
Ogroid Thaumaturge (thought he might make for a decent Tzeentch Daemon Prince)
Gaunt Summoner (hes on a 40mm, but I thought he might make a decent alternative for 2nd Tzeentch Herald)
40x Kairic Acolytes (they are on 32s. Might be able to run them as Cultists or less mutated Tzaangors?)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/12 00:43:10
lindsay40k wrote: Personal opinions: Disc Herald is *great* for flying over to some deep striking Horrors and souping up their shooting, and can escape should they get entangled in a melee.
Chariot Herald is certainly viable as part of a Tzeentch rushdown; can fly along with a DP and Screamers, buffing their melee, and *contributing* to a brawl with *non-melee specialist* units.
It's not going to break a Terminator shieldwall, but if (like me) you build it because you like the model, you're not lumbered with something that's unviably overcosted *right now*.
Walking Herald is a lot less flexible than disc herald; if you're wanting to use its aura buff to enhance Horror shooting, and you don't spend a Command Point making it Deep Strike, you're effectively anchoring your landing zones for the Horrors. Best used as a summoning option in niche Chaos Space Marine lists IMO.
If you like the fast paced approach, I suspect it'd be quite possible viable to build a viable 750pt list of two Outriders detachments, one Khorne, one Tzeentch, with a Jugger Herald or Karanak leading the former and a flying Herald of some stripe leading the latter. A few Furies here and there to fill out six fast attack & cover the rear against deep strikes & break up the template of solid Hounds & Screamers, and that'd be an interesting rushdown list.
While it's true the on foot herald is slower than the disc herald. It's actualy not such a big deal??
If you string back 2 horrors from your block of horrors you'll make the difference of 6" movement the disc herald would have had. Also if you think of those 2 strung back horrors as appart of the price of of the foot herald vs the change caster, you are actually abit head in cost effectiveness. Now obvious the flying disc guy can actualy fly, so he can ignore alot of terrain in his way, but i've found infantry ignore about as much terrain as models with fly in most games if everyone is starting on the first floor.
I just started a mono-god (yes I know, shooting myself in the foot) Slaanesh (yes, I know, even worse) daemons army, and wanted to ask a couple of questions.
What inspired the army is Morathi - I wanted to play her model, but not learn AOS or play the rest of the Daughters of Khaine book. So now she's Slaanesh, and she's a Daemon Prince because that's literally the only Slaanesh model that can have wings (which is weird because they're supposed to be the fast ones, IIRC).
So, I 100% am using a daemon prince with wings.
The other model I absolutely want to use is Zarakynel, or the "Exalted Keeper of Secrets", or whatever you'd like to call it - the neato Forge World KOS. I've been using her as Zarakynel in the last few games and she's done ... adequately, I suppose. 666 points is a LOT for her, but I want to try to make it work.
Any suggestions on how to do that? I've paid the 2CP to deep strike her every game, but she doesn't re-roll charges so it's actually kind of unreliable - I feel like she could get further by advancing and charging from my DZ. Only downside is she can get shot if I don't get first turn. Should I keep deep striking her?
I've also been using 2 CP in the shooting phase for Warp Surge on her, giving her a 3++. It's usually fairly good, but it isn't enough; she still dies by turn 2. I chalk this up to having little else as threatening as her in the list that requires anti-tank firepower. Instead of choosing between difficult targets, the enemy has a single BIG THING WOT MUST DIE and shoots everything anti-tank at her. Do you think she should be my warlord and have an even bigger target? The Daemon Prince, hilariously, is far more durable, because of the Character rules.
Is 9CP enough for Daemons? I've been running 1 BN of Slaaneshi Daemons, with the Masque, the Daemon Prince, a Herald, and 3x20 Daemonettes with all the works. 1 LoW detachment for Zarakynel, and then 1BN of Renegades and Heretics with 2 25pt commanders, 3x10 40pt cultists for close combat, and 2 Leman Russ tanks. The Chaos Russes were originally supposed to be spooky-scary and draw fire away from Zarakynel, but they hardly compare to her threat so it doesn't really work. I have also used them for long-ranged Anti-Tank support (one is an Annihilator), since I feel like the army (at least on paper?) has trouble knocking out things like Land Raiders, Knights, or even large numbers of Rhinos. Is this a good plan? Should I go for more CP with some sort of hamfisted brigade mix of Daemons and Renegades? I don't think I can fit in a Daemons brigade that I actually want with Zarakynel at 2k...
...anyways, enough rambling. Is mono-Slaanesh good? What allies fill in the gaps? I know Zarakynel's not worth 666 points, but is there a way to make her an "okay" choice or is she just shelf-worthy? What amount of CP is good to make the engine of a Daemons army tick over on all cylinders?
Some deepstriking Slaaneshi Obliterators could definitely draw heat away from your other stuff while keeping the monogod theme. 3 Obliterators, cultist troops, and a daemon prince for the armywide rerolls and access to CSM powers.
Badablack wrote: Some deepstriking Slaaneshi Obliterators could definitely draw heat away from your other stuff while keeping the monogod theme. 3 Obliterators, cultist troops, and a daemon prince for the armywide rerolls and access to CSM powers.
I might take a different HQ, but that makes sense to me - would it take the roll of the Leman Russes in performing anti-tank, do you think? That could work.
What are everyones opinions on Khorne vs Tzeentch demons as a detachment?
Currently I run a DG Battalion with a Nurgle Demons detachment and a secondary CSM detachment (zerkers, cultists) usually... but I'm very interested in swapping in another demon detachment instead. I think Tzeetch would be a great backline to the massive horde of plaguebearers I run!
Is 40 cultists and 20 pink horros overkill for troop blobs? Should i perhaps decrease the number of cultists and replace them with something else? Cheers.
Btw aiming for 2k points ill probably shift some numbers to give me 100ish points in reserve for horror splits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/13 05:15:59
Is 40 cultists and 20 pink horros overkill for troop blobs?
No it is not. I'm a bit spoiled here 'cause my main army is IG and your metagame may be different, but when I played against 40-man cultists blobs I had zero problem killing them. Of course they murdered at least 2 of my infantry squads turn 1, but guardsmen are supposed to die. And then tanks and mortars (+ morale test) removed all that cultists in one turn of shooting.
Yeah big cultist blobs aren't too much to deal with as long as you have enough small arms fire to deal with a whole 40man blob in a turn.
I think pink horrors are alittle tougher even more so with split as they can get up to something like 150 models just to finish off one spliting pink horror mass. That said after the first 51 you kill they get alot more manageable as they get a massive drop in shooting damage out put. Even more so they can only auto pass moral so many time before they run out of cp.
All that said if you have enough cp to pump pink horrors woth +invulns and auto pass morale, and mayne take an icon... woo That unit is a terror to deal with. Either way going all out is 700pts worth of stuff, and if you look at it that way the damage output isn't all that amazing. Probably why its best to only split yhe first 10 pink horrors.
mmimzie wrote: Yeah big cultist blobs aren't too much to deal with as long as you have enough small arms fire to deal with a whole 40man blob in a turn.
I think pink horrors are alittle tougher even more so with split as they can get up to something like 150 models just to finish off one spliting pink horror mass. That said after the first 51 you kill they get alot more manageable as they get a massive drop in shooting damage out put. Even more so they can only auto pass moral so many time before they run out of cp.
All that said if you have enough cp to pump pink horrors woth +invulns and auto pass morale, and mayne take an icon... woo That unit is a terror to deal with. Either way going all out is 700pts worth of stuff, and if you look at it that way the damage output isn't all that amazing. Probably why its best to only split yhe first 10 pink horrors.
Thanks for the replies.
The armies I face are pretty mixed but mostly space marines (templars and wolves), with a tendency for close combat units in rhinos.
Yea i was thinking limiting splitting because as you mentioned it is a big point sink.
For a total of 2 cps (FO and DotW) both units can be deployed right up in my opponents face deliverig quite a lot of firepower before they get whittled down. I guess ill have to playtest my list amd decide whether or not both are needed and if a different unit would be better use of the points. They will certainly soak up alot lf firepower and seeing so many models on the board will be nice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/13 10:22:48
Loci are given to battle forged armies where a detachment is all the same daemon keyword. So you could have an HQ detachment of NURGLE HQ, and then a battalion with mixed god keyword. The characters in the HQ detachment would all get the loci, and it would buff any NURGLE models in the battalion.
Don't forget a few things though : a Lord of Change with Impossible Robe and -1dmg Warlord trait becomes a lot tougher, cutting Plasma damage by 66% and Lascannon by 47%.
Well, possibly I should try him again. I have both LoCh and Kairos (though an old small models) since old times but never used them in 8-th.
OK, I've tried it in a friendly game against fluffy Khorne army (a lots of dogs and berserkers) and it did surprisingly good: was charged by two 5-man berserkers units, lost less then half of his wounds and killed everybody back (wiped one unit with Smite and another one with a combination of Infernal Gateway and melee).
But we had a question with Loci: are they granted per-detachment or per-army? For example, if I have 3 Tzeench detachments do I have to roll separately for each of them and use different results for units in different detachments or I just roll one time for all army? Rules look a bit ambiguous in this regard. (English is not my native language so it can be just a matter of misunderstanding on my side, of course)
So I have a question that is more for opinions than anything else. What is your opinion on Bloodthirsters? Is it better to just run Skarbrand now that he is a mere 20 points higher than a standard BT, or do BTs still have a place with their different weapon loadouts?
vaklor4 wrote: So I have a question that is more for opinions than anything else. What is your opinion on Bloodthirsters? Is it better to just run Skarbrand now that he is a mere 20 points higher than a standard BT, or do BTs still have a place with their different weapon loadouts?
The biggest thing was always the 12" movement over the 8" movement, though with Deep Strike Strats that's not such a problem.
I've only run Skarbrand once this edition, in a semi-friendly game where he charged Guilliman, did no damage and then had Guilliman kick his arse. It wasn't Skarbrand's finest moment.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
vaklor4 wrote: So I have a question that is more for opinions than anything else. What is your opinion on Bloodthirsters? Is it better to just run Skarbrand now that he is a mere 20 points higher than a standard BT, or do BTs still have a place with their different weapon loadouts?
The biggest thing was always the 12" movement over the 8" movement, though with Deep Strike Strats that's not such a problem.
I've only run Skarbrand once this edition, in a semi-friendly game where he charged Guilliman, did no damage and then had Guilliman kick his arse. It wasn't Skarbrand's finest moment.
I primarily have used Skarbrand as a buffer and a fire magnet, instead of an actual huge threat. People tend to focus the Bloodthirster special instead of focusing on the 10 Berzerkers getting auto-morale and 2+ attacks (due to two fight phases).
AstraVlad wrote: was charged by two 5-man berserkers units, lost less then half of his wounds and killed everybody back (wiped one unit...with a combination of Infernal Gateway and melee).
Remember that if you're casting Gateway while you yourself are engaged, then it will hit the closest model to you, which will be within 3", which will give YOURSELF some mortal wounds.
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
Remember that if you're casting Gateway while you yourself are engaged, then it will hit the closest model to you, which will be within 3", which will give YOURSELF some mortal wounds.
Probably not the best idea....
You are right, but sometimes it is worth the risk. Especially if you are surrounded by is a bunch of crazy bloodthirsty Khorn worshippers ready to tear out your guts .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/16 18:55:51
Smite beta rules went through and a small feculent grimgnaw nerf. Could have been worse though, Eldar got nerfed hard
Edit: No more Alphastrike is the new beta rule.
TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined Power Ratings of all the units you set up on the battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your army’s total Power Level, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere). This does not apply to a Genestealer Cults unit that is being set up according to the Cult Ambush ability, or to units that are set up after the first battle round has begun, but before the first turn begins (such as those set up via the Forward Operatives or Strike From the Shadows Stratagems).
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 06:00:40
No more Alphastrike, Smite beta rules went through and a small feculent grimgnaw nerf. Could have been worse though, Eldar got nerfed hard
TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined Power Ratings of all the units you set up on the battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your army’s total Power Level, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere). This does not apply to a Genestealer Cults unit that is being set up according to the Cult Ambush ability, or to units that are set up after the first battle round has begun, but before the first turn begins (such as those set up via the Forward Operatives or Strike From the Shadows Stratagems).
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.
Uuuugh!
Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne!
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