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I realise this may be a stupid question, and i apoligise if this has already come up
Ive been playing as Daemon Hunters for about 2 years and ive always wondered how secret they are. Would they kill whoever was in their path (xenos, Daemons, Imperial, etc) or just wipe their memories if their from the imperium
like i said may be a stupid question

"Only one force!!!!"

What are you talking about?......

.....

.....


yes, they are very secret. the GKs don't do the mind wiping, just the heavy lifting and when they are done an inquisitor shows up and mind wipes or burns everyone that was present.


the inquisition is known to exist, but the GKs existance(at least the fact they are dedicated to the service of the Inquisition) is kept secret.

if you see a Grey Knight they won't mind wipe you(most people will just assume its a space marine) but if there is a grey knight in your general vicinity then chances are that you are very close to a demonic infestation.


its not that the grey knights are bad for you, it what brought them there thats bad for you.

That part isn't entirely true.

Not everyone who comes into contact with the Grey Knights are mind wiped or burned. Most, in fact, aren't for one simple reason:

How would your average Guardsman know a Grey Knight from a normal Space Marine?

The people who tend to be burned were going to be burned anyways due to having been exposed to a daemonic taint for a lengthy period of time.

Alpha Legion must have an easy time. If a Grey Knight could masquerade as a Space Marine for normal people, there's no reason a Chaos Space Marine couldn't.

Alpha Legion: Hi there, we're here to save you from those nasty Orks.
Civilians: Thank, Mr. Space Marine!
Alpha Legion: We also need all of your promethium, some food supplies, and a hundred of you as sacrifices and cannon fod-I mean, travelers and companions for our journeys through the stars!
Civilians:
Alpha Legion: Don't we look like noble, trustworthy space marines?
Civilians: Oh yeah, you guys are great! Yeah, we'll give you all of that.
Alpha Legion:

But yeah, would the Grey Knights even care? Unless you were tainted by chaos or someone who is going to spread the word easily, I see no need for a mindwipe/execution.

+



=



Right?

Old fluff had everyone being killed or wiped.
New fluff not so much. For example, those who saw Angaron and the GK on Armageddon were "merely" sent to camps. People who had non-daemon-primarch-related contact with GK would probably get nothing done to them.


Also OT, but I couldn't help reading Emperor's Faithful's Shummy quote in his sig and laughing at how ignorant it is

New fluff not so much. For example, those who saw Angaron and the GK on Armageddon were "merely" sent to camps. People who had non-daemon-primarch-related contact with GK would probably get nothing done to them.

Actually, the only reason that they were forced into camps instead of killed was becuase it would have been impossible for the planet to continue to function. Attmepting to cull those who participated could possibly have led to civil war of some sorts. The work camps basically rebuilt the planet from the ground up. Without it, Armageddon would still be a wreck. Or, even more of a wreck when the Orks got to it.

Also OT, but I couldn't help reading Emperor's Faithful's Shummy quote in his sig and laughing at how ignorant it is

Wait, wha-?

Daemon Hunters, as I believe Phil Kelly put it, are the shining paragons of the Inquisition. They are (out of the inquisition) the least likey to mind wipe and kill you if you saw them.

If you saw the daemons, different thing entirely, as mentioned above, the whole population of Armageddon was forced to work in camps after the first war, both as a way of rebuilding the planet, and preventing the taint from spreading. Didn't the Space Wolf chapter master hate the inquisition for doing that?

It's the witch hunters who are the real meanies... You don't know if they've come for that psyker whose eating you're babies, or you :3

Emperors Faithful wrote:

New fluff not so much. For example, those who saw Angaron and the GK on Armageddon were "merely" sent to camps. People who had non-daemon-primarch-related contact with GK would probably get nothing done to them.

Actually, the only reason that they were forced into camps instead of killed was becuase it would have been impossible for the planet to continue to function. Attmepting to cull those who participated could possibly have led to civil war of some sorts. The work camps basically rebuilt the planet from the ground up. Without it, Armageddon would still be a wreck. Or, even more of a wreck when the Orks got to it.

Where are you getting this information? According to Lexicanum sighting 2 Armageddon games, "In order to preserve the secret of the Daemon Primarch, the entire population of Armageddon, as well as all the surviving soldiers, was rounded up, sterilized, and sentenced to work camps for the rest of their lives while a new population was brought to re-settle the planet."
Doesn't sound like they were put in camps because it was necessary for rebuilding to me. I guess the the sterilizing part helped them rebuild too?

Also OT, but I couldn't help reading Emperor's Faithful's Shummy quote in his sig and laughing at how ignorant it is

Wait, wha-?

Ignorant. Super ignorant. It's the biggest generalization I've seen in a long time. It doesn't matter what "side" the quote is on, or what point its trying to make, but making a cute metaphor about entire religions and groups of people that span the entire planet across countries, regions, cultures, and time is never correct or rational.

ph34r wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

New fluff not so much. For example, those who saw Angaron and the GK on Armageddon were "merely" sent to camps. People who had non-daemon-primarch-related contact with GK would probably get nothing done to them.

Actually, the only reason that they were forced into camps instead of killed was becuase it would have been impossible for the planet to continue to function. Attmepting to cull those who participated could possibly have led to civil war of some sorts. The work camps basically rebuilt the planet from the ground up. Without it, Armageddon would still be a wreck. Or, even more of a wreck when the Orks got to it.

Where are you getting this information? According to Lexicanum sighting 2 Armageddon games, "In order to preserve the secret of the Daemon Primarch, the entire population of Armageddon, as well as all the surviving soldiers, was rounded up, sterilized, and sentenced to work camps for the rest of their lives while a new population was brought to re-settle the planet."
Doesn't sound like they were put in camps because it was necessary for rebuilding to me. I guess the the sterilizing part helped them rebuild too?

Ah yes, I had made a mistake there. Ussually with such a deamon presence on such a scale, a planet would often suffer Exterminatus regardless of the outcome. However, since Armageddon was so vitally important in arms manufacture for the sector, so anyone with any viewing or detailed knowledge of the conflict was sterilized and put into camps, to rebuild the factories and industries for the new populants from offworld. However, the point stands that Armageddon was the exception, not the rule.

Also OT, but I couldn't help reading Emperor's Faithful's Shummy quote in his sig and laughing at how ignorant it is

Wait, wha-?

Ignorant. Super ignorant. It's the biggest generalization I've seen in a long time. It doesn't matter what "side" the quote is on, or what point its trying to make, but making a cute metaphor about entire religions and groups of people that span the entire planet across countries, regions, cultures, and time is never correct or rational.

It was a broad (very broad) sum up of an comprehensive arguement on Suma's part. I for one found his wall of text and regular posts to be refreshing after wading through an entire thread plauged with Islamaphobic posters with contributions mostly along the lines of "Dey iz bad islam terrorists and deyz deserve the bomb". If you want I can back and add one of those to my sig to compare it.

First war of armageddon was different, cause a demon-primarch and several big nasties showed up and the GK had to come in force
to drive back those warp-spawns.
Usually the Inquisition will find out soon enough to intercept and the killteams may deal with the infestation without too many
witnessess. Only a few to be missing.....

If its just a small colony, any attack could be easily blamed on xenos instead of demons.
Survivors may a) get killed to save their soul b) get mindwiped c) recruted into the Inquisitors own followship
Would say it depends of the level of the threat.

The Imperium can afford to lose thousands, maybe not afford to lose a source of material.
Members of the mechanicum could erase their memory, normal humans would get mindwiped.
Astartes and SoB may be in the know about the dangers of this galaxy already and safe from the =I= work in the aftermath
of a demonic infestation.

1hadhq wrote:

The Imperium can afford to lose hundreds of billions, and even the occasional planet or two.

Fixed.

Emperors Faithful wrote:It was a broad (very broad) sum up of an comprehensive arguement on Suma's part. I for one found his wall of text and regular posts to be refreshing after wading through an entire thread plauged with Islamaphobic posters with contributions mostly along the lines of "Dey iz bad islam terrorists and deyz deserve the bomb". If you want I can back and add one of those to my sig to compare it.

Being super against Islam for no good reason is bad, but "concluding" that Islamic people have an excuse for being as militant as they are, or even have close to an excuse, is also bad. It also attempts to state as fact that all christians are rich and all muslims are poor, which is wrong, and that christian regions have never suffered horribly, which is also wrong. It's basically a super ignorant and horribly wrong quote, and the fact that it was used to counter other potentially terrible statements doesn't make it better when compared to the world sane and reasonable things that could be said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

The Imperium can afford to lose hundreds of billions, and even the occasional planet or two.

Fixed.

But not Armageddon. Armageddon is an important place.

ph34r wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:It was a broad (very broad) sum up of an comprehensive arguement on Suma's part. I for one found his wall of text and regular posts to be refreshing after wading through an entire thread plauged with Islamaphobic posters with contributions mostly along the lines of "Dey iz bad islam terrorists and deyz deserve the bomb". If you want I can back and add one of those to my sig to compare it.

Being super against Islam for no good reason is bad, but "concluding" that Islamic people have an excuse for being as militant as they are, or even have close to an excuse, is also bad. It also attempts to state as fact that all christians are rich and all muslims are poor, which is wrong, and that christian regions have never suffered horribly, which is also wrong. It's basically a super ignorant and horribly wrong quote, and the fact that it was used to counter other potentially terrible statements doesn't make it better when compared to the world sane and reasonable things that could be said.

There was this whole thing about the Crusades and the reversal of roles, but I'm not going to get into it, not here anyway. Please feel free to continue this via PM, I'd be happy to bash religeon in all it's forms in private.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

The Imperium can afford to lose hundreds of billions, and even the occasional planet or two.

Fixed.

But not Armageddon. Armageddon is an important place.

Yes. Very important.

That's a relief you know. We may disagree on silly theological IRL matters, but when it comes to the important stuff such as a future factory world run by an oppressive government fighting green cavemen with guns being incredibly vital we see eye-to-eye.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

The Imperium can afford to lose hundreds of billions, and even the occasional planet or two.

Fixed.

Fixed?
You know, I tend to shove the losses to the opponent and keep mine as low as possible...

Its:

40k needs the Imperium as resilient as it is, to have an eternal war over dozens of millenia without running out of worlds to fight for.

The Inquisition needs demons and witches and xenos to serve a purpose, if those ever vanish the ressources will be redirected.

Emperors Faithful wrote:There was this whole thing about the Crusades and the reversal of roles, but I'm not going to get into it, not here anyway. Please feel free to continue this via PM, I'd be happy to bash religeon in all it's forms in private.

There would be nothing to discuss, really. It's not a manner of opinion vs opinion, it's just a blatantly incorrect quote trying to pass itself off as insightful, and if you enjoy its presence then you may keep it in your signature, I'm just trying to tell you that it makes you look dumb.

EDIT: and I know it's not trying to be 100% correct, it is trying to make a metaphor, but it doesn't succeed in accomplishing this without stretching the truth all over the place.

1hadhq wrote:

Fixed?
You know, I tend to shove the losses to the opponent and keep mine as low as possible...

I think you need to familiarize yourself with the Guard's strategem, son.

depends on the Inquisitor. Some Witch Hunters, for example, arrive publicly on a planet as the Emperor's Most Holy Inquisition and announce a week long grace period, wherein anyone reporting the sins of their neighbors gets off easy, or something like that.

Other Witch Hunters prefer not to drive their prey away by revealing their presence... I call these the SMART Inquisitors.

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Fixed?
You know, I tend to shove the losses to the opponent and keep mine as low as possible...

I think you need to familiarize yourself with the Guard's strategem, son.

Son?

Strategem: blast them to hell from a distance FTW.

BoT:
It wouldn't keep the presence of the inquisition a secret if they order an artillery strike.
Begs the question if the Inquisiton can silently mobilize the IG at all.

Armed forces on the move could ruin the secrecy.

The Inquisition can silently order the IG much easier than they can Astartes or Sisters, that's for certain. Power armor is NOT subtle.

Necroman wrote:Alpha Legion must have an easy time. If a Grey Knight could masquerade as a Space Marine for normal people, there's no reason a Chaos Space Marine couldn't.

Alpha Legion: Hi there, we're here to save you from those nasty Orks.
Civilians: Thank, Mr. Space Marine!
Alpha Legion: We also need all of your promethium, some food supplies, and a hundred of you as sacrifices and cannon fod-I mean, travelers and companions for our journeys through the stars!
Civilians:
Alpha Legion: Don't we look like noble, trustworthy space marines?
Civilians: Oh yeah, you guys are great! Yeah, we'll give you all of that.
Alpha Legion:

But yeah, would the Grey Knights even care? Unless you were tainted by chaos or someone who is going to spread the word easily, I see no need for a mindwipe/execution.

Chaos Space marines actually do this sort of thing all the time.

the average impierial citizen knows very little about space marines in general besides the basic appearance of the armor.

the average impierial citizen knows absolutly nothing about the traitor legions. the HH is a big taboo subject.


a Renagade marine is even more likely to do this, but any Spiky marine could do this.

Also the average Imperial citizen will never, EVER see a Marine. By average, I mean ninety nine percent of the population. Marines are an unimportant aspect of their lives.

Melissia wrote:AMarines are an unimportant aspect of their lives.

That's a bit of fudging the truth there, and says more about your Space Marine hatred than it does of the 'importance' of Space Marines in the lives of citizens of the Imperium.

Alpharius wrote:

Melissia wrote:AMarines are an unimportant aspect of their lives.

That's a bit of fudging the truth there, and says more about your Space Marine hatred than it does of the 'importance' of Space Marines in the lives of citizens of the Imperium.

No, it does not.

The average human will never, EVER see a Marine . Ever. Except in statuary MAYBE, but even then the only Marine that is often put to statues as a saint is Sanguinius, the only primarch declared a Saint. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised that many of them barely even believed Marines existed.

There are three reasons for this.

1: Marines are RARE. There is fewer than one Marine per Imperial world, and likely fewer than one marine per five or ten worlds depending on which author you ask.

2: Marines are always fighting. This means that the average citizen, whom lives a short and unpleasant life working in a factory in a polluted hive city and will never see a battlefield, will never really have a chance to see them.

3: Even on battlefields, most battles are not fought by Marines. They're fought by the PDF and Guard. That's the entire PURPOSE of the PDF and Guard. The Marines are too rare to even fight the majority of the Imperium's battles, nevermind to actually defend the Imperium as a whole as vast as it is. The uncounted trillions of the Imperial Guard ARE the army of the Imperium, not the Marines whom can't even be ordered around by Imperial authorities anyway.


So that means outside of recruiting worlds, which are a TINY percentage of the Imperium, very few worlds are graced with Marine presence over the course of each generation of humans. And even recruiting worlds oftentimes have almost no contact with Marines.

Melissia wrote:The Inquisition can silently order the IG much easier than they can Astartes or Sisters, that's for certain. Power armor is NOT subtle.

The IG is part of the chain of command, the space marines are not.
Try to contact someone without blowing your cover if your opposition may have some hidden supporters.
May happen with IG, as they mesh with the local populace.
And it could be impossible to explain the mobilization of IG units.

Plus, some chapters are really good at secret ops.

But maybe they are to careful to be used as tools ...

1hadhq wrote:[snip]

1: Yes, but the Inquisition doesn't have to explain their actions, they can make people hush up on pain of death without saying what the group is doing.

2: IG meshing with the population makes them BETTER covert operatives than Marines, not worse. Marines make a huge impact wherever they go, they are NOT good at secret ops no matter how much GW wants to spank them.. You cannot hide or infiltrate an eight foot tall monstrosity in power armor, and a Marine outside of power armor is even MORE conspicuous.

3: So mobilize a SMALLER unit. For example, Amberley Vail very secretly mobilized a fire team, plus Cain and Jurgen to scout out tunnels. And Stormtrooper units are specifically trained in this kind of thing.

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:[snip]

1: Yes, but the Inquisition doesn't have to explain their actions, they can make people hush up on pain of death without saying what the group is doing.

2: IG meshing with the population makes them BETTER covert operatives than Marines, not worse. Marines make a huge impact wherever they go, they are NOT good at secret ops no matter how much GW wants to spank them.. You cannot hide or infiltrate an eight foot tall monstrosity in power armor, and a Marine outside of power armor is even MORE conspicuous.

3: So mobilize a SMALLER unit. For example, Amberley Vail very secretly mobilized a fire team, plus Cain and Jurgen to scout out tunnels. And Stormtrooper units are specifically trained in this kind of thing.

1) Guard operates on orders. Orders have to be given, thus could be intercepted. Dont underestimate the enemy.

2) Its possible to infiltrate marines, like it or not. Worlds used to ogryns and other high-grav dwellers wouldn't mind marines.
Some personal guards arent that small too.

3) inquisitors may recrut whatever they deem useful. Secrecy means no witnesses.
Space marines aren't known to leave too many alive....

4) Morale is part of the secret war. Dishing out the emperors vengeance fast and deadly often explains the benefits of loyality in seconds. Usually assassins and killteams of stormtroopers may be enough, sometimes your inquisitor may not have those tools.
So forfeit duty? Or try to arrange an accident?

1: So do the Marines. The Inquisition, however, can make things far more secret than you seem to be willing to believe.

2: It's also possible to infiltrate vehicles. But that doesn't make them actually stealthy in the fluff. Marines stick out like a sore thumb which is also on fire when trying to infiltrate a chaos cult. THEY ARE fething EIGHT FEET TALL.. There is no way to get around this, no matter how much you want to claim Marines can infiltrate. Marines do NOT fit in with the population . When trying to investigate a potential chaos cult, you do not want to involve Marines. The only thing Marines are good at is killing the enemies of the Emperor.

3: And here, you contradict your first "point". So do they, or do they not leave witnesses?


4: ... you're rather wavering between two points here, aren't you?

4a: Guard morale is not as bad as it seems to be, especially with veterans who know they're going to be rewarded if they do a good job.

4b: If assassins or stormtroopers aren't available, then they're in a pretty damned backwater planet. Assassins-- even if they aren't part of the officio assassinorum-- are pretty damn common in the Imperium. And the top one percent of all stormtroopers are specifically forwarded to the Inquisition for their use. And hell, if you want to talk about difficult to obtain armies, Marines are even HARDER to obtain. Marines are rare as hell and have no obligation to obey an Inquisitor's orders.

I think you got the rarity a bit mixed.

-assasins are really rare. Until you throw in every mercenary.
-ISt are rare too.
-marines are uncommon.
-guard is common.

So no, assassins are least likely to be available in numbers or all the time they want one.
IST are the Inquisition's own forces, if they could do the job always and without involving others, the =I= would not use other forces of the Imperium as IST would provide the best control over training and loyality.
Space marines are swift and may differ, throwing them all into a "noisy and leave a mess" category just shows lack of knowledge.
Still, not always available but nice to have if you want something really dead. Plus GK are space marines.
The IG is everywhere. But varies in quality. =I=Badge of office grants easy access to them.


Now, its funny how hard you try to tell me I can't infiltrate a space marine. Do you claim the space marines lack any recon?
Ever heard about scouts? Read a codex? I don't need to prove things written in codices....

So lets infiltrate a chaos cult, led by alpha legionaires. Oh wait, thats choas space marines. Totally different.
They stick out and are therefore easy to spot.
Maybe " applying the appropriate " personal to a mission could hint on something.

I am under the impression the both of you are arguing a different interpretation of "infiltrating".

Sending a Marine to some world to pose as a cultist or member of the populace, and having him live and do his daily stuff among them as if he were one of them = not happening. They stand out too much, especially physically. In theory a Marine could attempt it without his armour and gear, but I have never heard of such a thing. The Imperium uses other agents for these operations.

Sending a covert Marine or Marine team, aka a kill team usually, with the intention of moving into a place using stealth and going undetected to accomplish certain objectives = done very often.

A lot of background material and Black Library novels feature this. For example the Dark Angles attempt it in story 2 of the second Space Wolves omnibus and the Crimson Fists attempt it at the beginning of "Rynn's World" when they scout the Ork forces. Both of these attempts fail miserably btw. The Fists almost-destruction as a chapter is even caused, indirectly, by one (incredibly stupid) action by one member of their scout team during this mission.

Most of the Imperial citizens indeed never see a Space Marine (usually if they do there is trouble around), and for that reason it can be said they don't play a big role in the every day life of those citizens, but that does by no means mean that they are not aware they exist, and that they are regarded as Godly beings. Whenever Marines set foot on a world they usually encounter masses of idolizing citizens who view them as the closest they will ever get to their God the Emperor. Most of the time this is a huge nuisance and the local planetary defence forces are tasked with keeping the populace away from the Marines.