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Actually Wolves have always been pretty popular IIRC, because they tended to be nicer and less arrogant than many Marine chapters or something like that. Something about them working well with Guard (even if they don't work well with the Inquisition, most Marine chapters tend not to anyway).

Melissia wrote:Actually Wolves have always been pretty popular IIRC, because they tended to be nicer and less arrogant than many Marine chapters or something like that. Something about them working well with Guard (even if they don't work well with the Inquisition, most Marine chapters tend not to anyway).

True, there was this inferno comic where a group of SW helped the remains of a Valhalla force escaping from tyranids, even tough they lost some marines they were committed to save the guardsmen.

It's part of the reason I actually kinda like the Wolves.

some chapters are more involved with the people they protect then others.


the Wolves are sworn allies of a Navigator house and they protect all of the worlds in their sector with regular patrols(SW omnibus)

the Ultramarines rule an entire subsector by themselves.(Codex)

Dark angels maintain small Garrisons on each recruiting world.(Angels of Darkness)

most Planet based marines probably rule the actual planet in a similer fashion. the codex says planets under marine rule or protection are exempt from Impierial tithes.


other chapters are less involved.

Mortificators probably don't care much.

Black templars are always on the move although they ocassionally show up at a long abandoned Stronghold to get something(Heroes of the Space Marines)

Mind you, I've seen stories of Black Templars slaughtering anyone taht was in their stronghold, loyalist or otherwise, when they returned.

Melissia wrote:Actually Wolves have always been pretty popular IIRC, because they tended to be nicer and less arrogant than many Marine chapters or something like that. Something about them working well with Guard (even if they don't work well with the Inquisition, most Marine chapters tend not to anyway).

Amen to that. If I may put forth my own opinion, I think the popularity of the SMs depends heavily on the chapter.
For example, the Space Wolves and Imperial Fists are, I think, very well known and loved by the populace, due to (respectively) the legends of the Wolves' garrulousness when fighting alongside Guard and the Fists' reputation for being courageous in the extreme. Other chapters, such as the Flesh Tearers, have spread an element of mistrust amongst the worlds of the Imperium due to their questionable tactics and the collateral damage they cause.

As to the Guard vs. Marine argument, I think perhaps it's a little irrelevant, as they are designed to do different jobs. If I may use the British Army as an example, the Guard are like the standard regiments of troopers, who will ultimately do most of the fighting, whereas the SMs are the equivalent of the SAS, only deployed for specialist or particularly important missions that a normal regiment could not do. I may be wrong there, but that's how I've always seen it.

Grey Templar wrote:some chapters are more involved with the people they protect then others.


the Wolves are sworn allies of a Navigator house and they protect all of the worlds in their sector with regular patrols(SW omnibus)

the Ultramarines rule an entire subsector by themselves.(Codex)

Dark angels maintain small Garrisons on each recruiting world.(Angels of Darkness)

most Planet based marines probably rule the actual planet in a similer fashion. the codex says planets under marine rule or protection are exempt from Impierial tithes.


other chapters are less involved.

Mortificators probably don't care much.

Black templars are always on the move although they ocassionally show up at a long abandoned Stronghold to get something(Heroes of the Space Marines)

True, also Crimson Fists in Rynn's World. Even though in some passages you can see an ambivalence in marine attitude towards the population, really well done.

Melissia wrote:Mind you, I've seen stories of Black Templars slaughtering anyone taht was in their stronghold, loyalist or otherwise, when they returned.

I did read pieces of fluff where BT slaughtered an ork warband which settled an abandoned BT keep.

As for BT killing loyalist on their chapter keep I never heard about that and I find it very unlikely for the following reasons:

1) Common populace would never be able to penetrate a marine stronghold defence system;
2) Marines would not occupy a fellow astartes stronghold unless invited or under dire circumstances, even so they'd have to follow protocol and send the servs in the keeps the required codes and so on to gain access;
3) Chapter Keeps are used to either muster crusades or gather neophytes, so other chapters, IG and population have no business there;
4) Chapter Keeps are always manned even if only by serfs so, how in the world would Imperial forces have access to the Keep unless invited, allowed or by force?

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
As to the Guard vs. Marine argument, I think perhaps it's a little irrelevant, as they are designed to do different jobs. If I may use the British Army as an example, the Guard are like the standard regiments of troopers, who will ultimately do most of the fighting, whereas the SMs are the equivalent of the SAS, only deployed for specialist or particularly important missions that a normal regiment could not do. I may be wrong there, but that's how I've always seen it.

Pretty much my opinion. Different tools for different tasks.

Krauser wrote:As for BT killing loyalist on their chapter keep I never heard about that and I find it very unlikely for the following reasons:

There was a note in either one of the White Dwarf articles or somewhere in Dark Heresy's various fluff tidbits about a group of monks who had used a BT stronghold as a monastery, and were putting themselves in danger in case the BTs ever came back to use that stronghold again.

Melissia wrote:

Krauser wrote:As for BT killing loyalist on their chapter keep I never heard about that and I find it very unlikely for the following reasons:

There was a note in either one of the White Dwarf articles or somewhere in Dark Heresy's various fluff tidbits about a group of monks who had used a BT stronghold as a monastery, and were putting themselves in danger in case the BTs ever came back to use that stronghold again.

Never read that, thanks for bringing it to my attention.
I'm going to have a look through my WD stash see if I find anything about it

Mind you, I'm no expert on Black Templars. The fact that the BTs apparently fought the Daughters of the Emperor inside of the Emperor's palace at the end of the Age of Apostasy was news to me when I learned of it a couple months ago-- it was never mentioned anywhere in Sisters fluff, despite being a rather important point in their founding...

Well, BT were my first army, been playing for 11 or so years, I got most of the works about BT, WD, codices, comics and so on and I never found that piece you mentioned.

Given the templar zealous nature it would be possible for something like that to happen, but there again it would be odd for them to attack someone spreading the Imperial creed. But this is GW, so we never know how they'll twist the fluff.


Compared to GW tzeench is nothing but a toddler, GW is the real changer. xD

Melissia wrote:Mind you, I'm no expert on Black Templars. The fact that the BTs apparently fought the Daughters of the Emperor inside of the Emperor's palace at the end of the Age of Apostasy was news to me when I learned of it a couple months ago-- it was never mentioned anywhere in Sisters fluff, despite being a rather important point in their founding...

They had to enlighten them.
But it was part of codex BT that Black Templars fougth at terra at the end of the apostasy.

1hadhq wrote:

Melissia wrote:Mind you, I'm no expert on Black Templars. The fact that the BTs apparently fought the Daughters of the Emperor inside of the Emperor's palace at the end of the Age of Apostasy was news to me when I learned of it a couple months ago-- it was never mentioned anywhere in Sisters fluff, despite being a rather important point in their founding...

They had to enlighten them.
But it was part of codex BT that Black Templars fougth at terra at the end of the apostasy.

That piece of fluff is actually older than the BT codex. It became widely know with the release of the codex.

And yet, the Daughters of the Emperor fended the BTs off for months before Alicia Dominica was led before the throne, and then ended the Age of Apostasy

Melissia wrote:And yet, the Daughters of the Emperor fended the BTs off for months before Alicia Dominica was led before the throne, and then ended the Age of Apostasy

Well, they were barricaded in a fortified position which would probably have some of the best defences in the Empire. The BT only had one crusade there and still managed to breach the defences.

My guess is if the Custodes hadn't intervened we wouldn't have SoB now

Or we might not have Black Templars now

Like I've said, there was only 1 crusade there while the sister forces were amassed there.

They weren't Sisters when that happened. They were trained and skilled yes, but there was no evidence that the Daughters of the Emperor had any actual war experience at the time. And yet, they still held the BTs off.

I am aware of that, SoB were formed after the leading sister was taken to the golden throne and had the visions and stuff. Still if they had all died there would be no SoB now.

But there's no point in arguing about what could have happened. Each will have its views with little or no fluff to back it up.

The inquisitor is really the factor which decides whether or not the war is 'secret'. An example is in the Eisenhorn omnibus, where they (Inquisitors) go on a parade with some Marines (white scars iirc). However in the book Grey Knights (by Ben counter) it says that Inquisitors are very rarely known about, so the war is quite secret Also, in the Daemonhunters codex, marines get peeved with Inquisitors for their wholesale destruction of Imperial Citizens who are far away from Daemonic Incursions.

And while I'm here, I might as well point out -
-The imperium would be destroyed if either the astartes or the guard left
-Most marine ships are pre-heresy
-Marines are better scouts/infiltraters compared to guardsmen (there's a bit in Chapter's due where a squad of Chaos marines are on the lookout on a castles wall. They're being watched by a ultrasmurf sniper scout. Then bam! They all disappear, and are like wtf? They have an auspex but they dont get it. Raven Guard ftw )
-Whoever said the imperium supplies chaos marines, they supply the mortal followers to.
-And while i'm at it....lots of soritas fall to chaos (GK omnibus by Ben Counter).

Edit: In the same omnibus, it says that whilst marines are a regular feature in stories, and like, everyone is like OMG MARINES! There are naught but a few rumours about the shady inquisitors . And Black Templars are cool. They proved that at Montisgard (my respect for the sisters also went up there too )

Krauser wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually Wolves have always been pretty popular IIRC, because they tended to be nicer and less arrogant than many Marine chapters or something like that. Something about them working well with Guard (even if they don't work well with the Inquisition, most Marine chapters tend not to anyway).

True, there was this inferno comic where a group of SW helped the remains of a Valhalla force escaping from tyranids, even tough they lost some marines they were committed to save the guardsmen.

Actually, those guys were Solvakians from the future!

Interrogator Savaul is pretty open about his kapowness in And They Shall Know No Fear

Meanwhile Inquisitor Vail was very secretive about her own position in the Cain series.

Melissia wrote:
1: That is apparently not an issue, seeing as Sororitas travel and deploy throughout the galaxy in many wars of faith and Imperial crusades. That we do not know how they do so is irrelevant to the fact that they do. Examples being 1000 Sisters taking over 100 worlds in C:WH in a single crusade. This would have taken a lot of space travel.

Rubbish.

Wars of Faith, as you must know, are declared by the Ecclesiarchy and the Sororitas fight on its behalf, spearheading assaults. We know that the Ecclesiarchy relies upon the Imperial Navy for transport (in Faith and Fire this reliance is clearly shown) and Frateris Militia get themselves around and/or are raised as necessary closer to the actual world or worlds under attack. We also know that the Sororitas protect pilgrims who travel on civilian space craft. With all that in mind it is logical to conclude that the Ecclesiarchy and hence the Sororitas are able to command/persuade or rely on the Imperial Navy or other Imperial vessels in order to travel throughout the Imperium.

Also, your example does not support your argument. You say that it was a Crusade when it was in fact a War of Faith and I don't believe I need to point out the major differences between the two to you. You also say that they 'took over' 100 worlds when they in fact liberated 100 worlds and so we cannot know just how much assistance was rendered by those worlds to ensure their liberation. The example itself is placed firmly within the context of actions taken by the Sororitas at the behest of the Ordo Hereticus meaning that such actions are never even written about in Imperial histories so who can truly attest to just what the Sororitas did or did not actually achieve.

2: You're taking the bare minimum interpretation of the numbers. However, no such exact numbers are given.

No I'm not and even if I were you contradict yourself in your next point by saying no such exact numbers are given so how exactly might I take the bare minimum if there are none?

In any case you are wrong, there are some exact numbers and I quote, 'On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred... ...at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand. In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now numbers between 3,000 and 4,000...' Such figures would mean twenty thousand plus Sororitas currently with the number increasing at times.

I personally believe there are tens of millions of Sisters in the galaxy, if not more.

Your personal beliefs are irrelevant, ignore the background and are ridiculous.

...even a minor shrine in the Calixis subsector had twenty Battle Sisters not including novitiates, and it wasn't even a base for the Militant Orders (it was a training facility for the Sisters Famulous).

Yeah, Sisters Famulous whose duties are to arrange marriages and make sure the nobility don't get up to any hanky panky and you interpret twenty of them to indicate, contrary to the background, that there are millions of Sisters Militant; you are after all arguing this point based on your perception of how many Sororitas are needed to prosecute the Ecclesiarchy's wars which the Sisters Famulous do not do.

A few thousand Sisters makes no sense...

It makes perfect sense. The Sororitas flaunt the spirit of the Decree Passive but in shadowy and secret negotiation with the newly formed Ordo Hereticus secured their position as the militant wing of the Ecclesiarchy in return for being at the beck and call of the Ordo Hereticus as their Chamber Militant. Also, since the Sororitas are founded from a fanatical warrior cult that seeks purity through battle prowess who only accept the very best candidates it makes sense that they would be as large or as small as their ability to acquire such perfect specimens dictates which currently is less.

...and while you can choose to interpret it that way...

It is not interpretation; it is statement of fact as provided in the background.

3: Then you are ignorant of their fluff.

I am not ignorant of the background at all, quite the contrary, and whilst you are also not ignorant of the background you have been obtuse in your presentation of it to suit your own preferences.

Indeed, the Sisters are actually equipped specifically for fighting in the void.

The Sabbat pattern helm has only been in use since M38. so for at least as long as the Sororitas have used that particular helmet they did not use it and since its integral rebreather is specifically mentions it follows that earlier Sororitas helms were without such a device. Naturally though they would need to be so equipped since they accompany pilgrims as they travel throughout the Imperium, specifically to defend them from alien or piratical attack and they provide a guard for the Black Ships, perhaps prior to the Sabbat helm they were equipped with separate rebreathers although they would have been much less useful in total vacuum.

However, it is not a function given specifically for combat in the void, the description only tells us it is of limited use in total vacuum and so it cannot be logically concluded, given the mountain of evidence against it, that the inclusion of a rebreather means that the Sororitas are specifically intended for space combat above all other concerns as you assert. Compared to the Astartes who not only have superior functionality in their own armour but can survive total vacuum thanks to their modifications (the name Space Marine is adduceable isn't it) are often specifically tasked with patrolling the space lanes with their own fleet which may or may not also be the location of their fortress monastery making them clearly superior warriors in terms of space combat.

Gogsnik wrote:[snip]

1: Nope, not rubbish. That we do not know the Sororitas' mode of transportation between worlds and from space to ground does not mean that they have none. That they use the Imperial Navy is not even necessarily proven, it's an assumption on your part, unless of course you have a citation which I don't know about. If so, please, present it. I'm interested.

2: I didn't contradict myself at any point. If you really think this, then re-read my post, as it is quite clear that I said "bare minimum interpretation. C:WH gives (to paraphrase) the number of Sisters as "many thousands" for major Orders which could be anywhere from say five thousand to a hundreds of thousands, and a couple dozen to many hundreds for minor Orders. There is no actual limit, however, on the number of minor Orders that are in the galaxy, therefor there is technically no upper limit to the number of Sisters in the galaxy. Even if there are but a thousand minor orders scattered throughout shrines and battlefields across the galaxy, each having on average one hundred Sisters, that would put the number at one hundred thousand. That's a LIGHT amount to say the least, because of the huge numbers of shrines and battlefields on the galaxy, nevermind the other purposes for which Sisters are created. I believe, rather, in a much more numerous interpretation of the most recent fluff, which gives the Sisters the proper amount of numbers needed to carry out their duties to the Ecclesiarchy and their occasional service to the Inquisition.

3: Limited use in the void is still plenty enough enough for a firefight in a boarding action, and better than Imperial Guard gets to be sure. An hour of breathing is plenty of time to finish a firefight one way or the other, and then manage to get into a pressurized area to replenish supplies of breathable air.

Melissia wrote:1: Nope, not rubbish. That we do not know the Sororitas' mode of transportation between worlds and from space to ground does not mean that they have none. That they use the Imperial Navy is not even necessarily proven, it's an assumption on your part, unless of course you have a citation which I don't know about. If so, please, present it. I'm interested.

It's called the Decree Passive. The fleets raised by Vandire and any other member of the Ministorum were disbanded and seperated and the all naval assets were stripped from the Ministorum.

Thor didn't want the Ministorum to have no teeth at all which is why he established the Adepta Sororitas, to get around the Decree Passive. The Minstorum does have dedicated elite infantry but nothing else; well they aren't supposed to have anything else and offically they don't but sometimes a rogue Cardinal gets a few ships together but that is rare.

2: I didn't contradict myself at any point. If you really think this, then re-read my post, as it is quite clear that I said "bare minimum interpretation. C:WH gives (to paraphrase) the number of Sisters as "many thousands" for major Orders which could be anywhere from say five thousand to a hundreds of thousands, and a couple dozen to many hundreds for minor Orders. There is no actual limit, however, on the number of minor Orders that are in the galaxy, therefor there is technically no upper limit to the number of Sisters in the galaxy. Even if there are but a thousand minor orders scattered throughout shrines and battlefields across the galaxy, each having on average one hundred Sisters, that would put the number at one hundred thousand. That's a LIGHT amount to say the least, because of the huge numbers of shrines and battlefields on the galaxy, nevermind the other purposes for which Sisters are created. I believe, rather, in a much more numerous interpretation of the most recent fluff, which gives the Sisters the proper amount of numbers needed to carry out their duties to the Ecclesiarchy and their occasional service to the Inquisition.

Come off it, the Major Orders only ever manage to raise several thousand warriors, specific figures presented to you, but the Minor Orders are limitless? Bah! And to quote Codex Witch Hunters, 'The original six orders are by far the most numerous.'

Again I will point out that this is not interpretation but the presentation of the facts as given in the background if you choose to ingore the numbers that's up to you.



And some more quotes that might help to illuminate on the earlier discussions.

Melissia wrote:Mind you, I've seen stories of Black Templars slaughtering anyone taht was in their stronghold, loyalist or otherwise, when they returned.

Codex Black Templars page eight, 'However, such lonely ruins are never forgotten, and it is not unknown for the Black Templars to return to these keeps, much to the dismay of anything foolish enough to have taken up residence to their absence.'

Melissia wrote:...it was never mentioned anywhere in Sisters fluff...

Codex Sisters of Battle page thirteen.

Melissia wrote:And yet, the Daughters of the Emperor fended the BTs off for months before Alicia Dominica was led before the throne, and then ended the Age of Apostasy

At the time it was the Brides of the Emperor not the Daughters of the Emperor.

After Vandire tricked the Daughters into becoming his bodyguard/enforcers/assassins/executioners/entertainment he had them retrained by the best 'teachers' of the Imperial Guard and re-equpped with the most modern weaponry. It seems unlikely that they were equipped with powered armour at this time although it is not mentioned either way but certainly they were as well equipped as the Guard and probably more so given their elite status.

The Daughters of the Emperor came to Vandire's attention early in the Reign of Blood and it was seventy years before news of Thor reached Vandire so presumably the Brides of the Emperor were combat veterans of many decades, some perhaps of six decades plus. At any rate they were well used to commiting murder upon Vandire's command.

When the assault on Terra came it was lead by regiments of the Martian Tech Guard by the order of the Fabricator-General Gestaph Hedriatix who were joined by an indeterminate number of Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers and Black Templars (although the Black Templar Codex uses the word chapters so quite a few perhaps).

These forces first had to get past Vandire's fleets and armies and then they had to breach the central complex of the 'almost impregnable' Ecclesiarchal palace defended by ten thousand Brides of the Emperor and roughly six thousand of these were killed. The corridors of the palace were said to be littered with the dead so the hundreds of thousands of warriors that Vandire commanded presumably got butchered to a man but there eventual fate isn't described.

Melissia wrote: Limited use in the void is still plenty enough enough for a firefight in a boarding action, and better than Imperial Guard gets to be sure. An hour of breathing is plenty of time to finish a firefight one way or the other, and then manage to get into a pressurized area to replenish supplies of breathable air.

Yes, but you are missing the point a bit, I think. The point he was making is that Astartes would be better in this role as ship's troops, as it is one of the roles they are designed for. Heck, in the fluff, Terminator armour is said to have been designed for boarding actions and other close-quarter firefights. The sisterhood, as I have always understood it, was there to provide both a defensive force for the Shrine worlds as well as footsoldiers for the Inquisition, which is why they have such elite equipment, and thus would not be specifically dedicated to a ship-to-ship fighting role.

Yes... IF you can get any, and IF you can convince them to do so.

Melissia wrote:

Rashim wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Rashim: Mellissia has often quoted or sourced from the Ciaphas Cain books amongst others.

I'm not arguing his citation. I'm saying that I was irked by him asking for citation from other people, and them just blowing him off or /ignoring him.

I was asking for SPECIFIC citations. Saying "I cite the fluff in general" isn't helpful in any way whatsoever, and therefor I ignore it.

I used the Ciaphas Cain books because they actually show some interaction with the populace, whereas most Marine books do not. And Dark Heresy is, of course, a very good reference for anything civilian related and the operation of the Inquisition in general at the lower levels (And yes, it is canon, it was worked on by Dan Abnett and Andy Hoare amongst others).

Also, SHE.

My bad, my bad. Melissia could be a guys name too

I also agree with you. Almost all of my posts have been "Hey, Melissia is right, citation pl0x." I was in debate from Junior High - Highschool, and even if my current knowledge of 40k fluff disagrees with something you say, I still agree with you that citation is needed. I'm personally hoping that I will learn something from this giant cluster feth of walls o'texts.

I don't see why you and emperor's faithful keep seeing my posts as me targeting ya'll. I'm trying to do the opposite, but apparently I'm doing it wrong 0.o

Also, if it matters to you two, I've come to see your side of the debate, and have been swayed. My previous metaphor of hand and scalpel no long holds complete in my mind. While the SM's are important, the IG is the buffer that lets them be important, ergo IG > SM. Being a hardcore DA fan, this is hard to admit, but it is true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the DA's being their for the populace on their recruitment worlds is laughable. While they are their, they really aren't helping much less caring all that much. Most recruitment stations only have a squad of space marines there. *Need to look for the Citation in Angels of Darkness*

Also, the Argument made for the Space Marines ships being equivalent to Imperial Navy ships is false. When Rowboat Girlyman was about making the Codex Astartes, the High Lords specifically stripped the Marines of their abilities to have large scale navy support. Space Marine Battle Barges would get NUKED by just about any major Ship Class in the Imperial Navy. *Citation needed from both Codex Astartes, Battlefleet Gothic, and HH Novels(To show that they used to have the ability to field them)*

While the Imperial Navy is effectively at a Space Marine Commanders beck and call in active war zones (LOL, pissed off Navy Commanders in BL canon make me laugh), they aren't the Space Marines own Naval Support.

The only two chapters AFAIK that don't obey this are the Dark Angels (We DAngels are pompus donkey-caves ) and the Black Templar, the only 2 Major fleet based chapters. This is probably because they have no home world they call their own (Complete speculation).

Grey Templar wrote:
Space marine outfit themselves.

all the Impierium does is provide a Starter pack of Geneseed and a few ships. another chapter supplies a few Dozen veterans and some equipment.

True for some sucessor chapters. Many aren't as lucky to have a SM Chapter do charity for them.

after that the marines pick a new homeworld as a recruitment center and a nearby Forge world to get supplies from.

You make this sound ridiculously easy.

power armour may be, relatively, difficult to produce, but its production probably doesn't compare to outfitting billions of guardsmen.

1000+ Power armour, Fortress, Vehichles, Fleet, Wargear, Special facilities for geneseed < Outfitting 1 billion guardsmen.

my reference is the SM codex and lexicanum for those who want to know.

Good lad.

Gogsnik wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:The bare resources and manpower just to equip a single SM chapter with wargear, defences and a fleet(!) is monumental. You could likely muster segmentum fleet with those resources alone.

Pure speculation, you have no evidence either way to say if a fledling chapter requires more or less resources than a Navy Fleet.

True dat. Shameless hyperbole on my part.

Their independance is a problem as well, many CSM are not still the same fighters from the Horus Heresy. Swathes of them are small warbands or even entire chapters of SM that have gone rogue. In essence, the Imperium is providing the only major source of new CSM recruits.

There are many, many more non-Astartes who turn to the worship of Chaos, the Imperium provides most of them too so your logic here is redundant.

These are nowhere near as much a threat, and not just becuase of thier equipment/training/lack-of-superpowers. See IG codex.

Melissia wrote:The Astartes do BOARDING ACTIONS better, but then arguably any power armored troops could do the same... IE Sisters, whom are seemingly designed for such close-ranged combat as boarding and urban warfare, unlike Marines whom are adapted to all kinds of warfare.

As for the rest of naval warfare, the Imperial Navy does everything else better than the Astartes.

IMO, regularily putting SoB on Navy ships is dangerous and goes straight in the face of the Decree Passive.

Also Space Marines foundings take place only when necessary, ie when conventional Naval or Guard battlegroups are incapable or not as useful. Chapters are not created at the expense of the Navy or Guard but when the High Lords determine they are needed.

I thought they were done in large swathes over periods of time? (3rd, 4th founding) Or is it now done singularily?

1hadhq wrote:IIRC the space marine vessels were old in every single piece of fluff. There must be new to replace losses.

For fluff reasons most ships will be described as (and often are) incredibly ancient. Most chapters ships will be as old as the chapter itself. Very few ships are made, the technology for most makes is slowly being lost over time. Instead, losses are scavenged and rebuilt, which is what makes hulks so valuable.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Instead of better Guardsmen, I'd be arguing for MOAR!!!

More?
Did Tactica Imperialis change to a RTS-source book?
The Imperium does have enough Guardsmen. Rulebook,5th ed, page 138. Nice map of the IG's strongholds/recrutement.
Count the numbers and then we may speak again.

That's cute, actually thinking that there are ever enough guardsmen.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
an Imperial ship that rebels can't resupply or secure resources as they have no form of actually aquiring or securing the materials needed planetside.

On the contrary, planetary officials have to support the long range patrols of the imperial navy.
Ships generally pick up new crews and supplys on their course. They are not restricted to the naval bases.
I suggest "Relentless" a book about an imperial cruiser and his officers rebelling against their new captain.