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BTW I believe you are wrong bout infiltrating Marines there Melissa. If you read tales of heresy they actually have created cloaks that change your appearance. To the point one Custodia or w/e they call them spent months as a labourer in one of the games they do. He was dressed as a normal man then. Then at one point I believe an Ogryn.

But to anwser the OPs first question yes and no maybe. Really all depends on the Situation and the forces GKs have and are known to turn on IG forces the second a battle is over to save there souls and to keep the daemons a secret.

TBD wrote:Most of the Imperial citizens indeed never see a Space Marine (usually if they do there is trouble around), and for that reason it can be said they don't play a big role in the every day life of those citizens...

My reply isn't aimed at you TBD, just at the general point that you've raised.

Space Marines are hugely important to the vast majority of Humanity. They are the God-Emperor's Angels of Death and His divine blood flows through their veins.

Saying that Space Marines are unimportant to ordinary humans because they will never see one is an entirely specious argument. There are over a billion Christians who believe pationately in Jesus Christ, and nearly a billion Muslims who feel the same way about Mohammad, peace be upon him. None of these people have ever seen these two men but you would not say that they are unimportant because of this.

To an Imperial Citizen the Space Marines occupy a very similar place in their cultural psyche, more akin to the Apostles than Jesus Christ Himself; the Primarchs would occupy that position. Indeed, the Cult of Sanguinius is the largest Cult within the Imperium after that of the God-Emperor. Ordinary humans might not ever see a Space Marine, they may not even fully believe they exist, but they certainly believe in them as the God-Emperor's Angels of Death and all that that entails.


As to the point of infiltration, this is something the Astartes can certainly do, just as TBD points out. They do not pose as ordinary humans, although many approach Marine proportions so their size is of little importance in those instances; Ibram Gaunt is said to be around or just over two metres tall for example.

Marines can use stealth tactics to infiltrate enemy positions and Chaos Marine Veterans were notable for this thanks to the massive amount of combat experience they have; The Battle for Purgatory story in Codex Chaos had Night Lords veterans infiltrating an Imperial Guard position completely unseen.

1hadhq wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Inquisition can silently order the IG much easier than they can Astartes or Sisters, that's for certain. Power armor is NOT subtle.

The IG is part of the chain of command, the space marines are not.
Try to contact someone without blowing your cover if your opposition may have some hidden supporters.
May happen with IG, as they mesh with the local populace.
And it could be impossible to explain the mobilization of IG units.

Plus, some chapters are really good at secret ops.

Spoiler:

Raven Guard

But maybe they are to careful to be used as tools ...

the imperium feeds propaganda to its civillians all the time for all they know the imperium is still winning. Its possible to find an excuse for mobilizing hundreds of IG troops

inquisitoredd142 wrote:

the imperium feeds propaganda to its civillians all the time for all they know the imperium is still winning. Its possible to find an excuse for mobilizing hundreds of IG troops

Depends on the targets.
High ranking 'heretics' may find out what this mobilization is good for.
Lowly cults may not get the access to needed info so they may believe the excuses.

With power comes paranoia. Some of the worst threats to the Imperium were cautious and didn't trust official sources,
so the propaganda won't work. You could stir them up with guardsmen swarming in their backyard so maybe an inactive IG
an a decisive strike with a killteam keeps them in their hideout and you don't have to deal with 'innocent' citizens.

Melissia wrote: snip

You entirely missed my point.

Which is that Marines are VERY important in the lives of Imperial citizens, whether or not they've seen one.

I'm fairly certain that all good Imperial citizens know this too, as they're taught it from an early age.

Alpharius wrote:You entirely missed my point.

Not really, you failed to make the point. I don't buy your argument for an instant.

Melissia wrote:

Alpharius wrote:You entirely missed my point.

Not really, you failed to make the point. I don't buy your argument for an instant.

Aren't you just a bag of sweets?

You may not believe it, but that doesn't make it any less true!

Nor does your believing it make it any less false. I have see ZERO fluff showing that Marines are preached about by the Ecclesiarchy. Saints, yes, but there's only one Astartes saint that I know of (Which I mentioned before). Astartes themselves? No.

Cite your sources if you really want to press the issue. While the common citizen would certainly be in awe of the Marine, that doesn't mean they're terribly important to Imperial culture.

Melissia wrote:Nor does your believing it make it any less false. I have see ZERO fluff showing that Marines are preached about by the Ecclesiarchy. Saints, yes, but there's only one Astartes saint that I know of (Which I mentioned before). Astartes themselves? No.

Your zealotry to the Sisters is certainly impressive. I guess.

It also blinds you to the reality that you live in.

So to speak, of course.

Alpharius wrote:Your zealotry to the Sisters is certainly impressive. I guess.

It also blinds you to the reality that you live in.

So to speak, of course.

Don't whine to me about "zealotry" and being "blind", when I'm still waiting for you to cite a source for your supposed insight. Personally, I used simple numerical comparisons and logic for my arguments. You can look back and read it if you want. You may not like my arguments, but my argument actually HAS something to back it up. You have yet to present any such backing to your own. Furthermore, I can cite sources where Saints are worshipped along with the Emperor, and venerated (Dark Heresy is the easiest source of course, but there are others), yet I have not seen any evidence to support your claim. As I said, Marines may be held in awe, but to claim that makes them IMPORTANT to the lives of the common citizen is ludicrous.

So are you going to cite your sources to back up your claim or not?

Um, do you think you might be taking this a bit too seriously?

As for sources, just about EVERY important battle in the history of the Imperium has had Space Marines play a crucial role in it.

The citizens of Armageddon, Cadia and Ultramar, to name a few, would probably agree.

Alpharius wrote:The citizens of Armageddon, Cadia and Ultramar, to name a few, would probably agree.

It should be noted that Armageddon and Cadia are two of the most famous battlegrounds, so the citizens there would certainly have a greater knowledge of the Space Marines. Ultramar is a system controlled by Space Marines, so that's another exception to the rule.

They're probably not the best example of an average planet.

As for how well the Imperial citizens know of the Space Marines... No idea. Considering the Imperium's policy towards the Space Marines (Make a great visual and visceral impact), making propaganda for them would only make sense.

In almost every BL novel I've read, when Space Marines show up and are seen by civies, they're treated with equal parts awe / terror / worship. They are not ignored as unimportant, or disbelieved completely as imaginary. They are usually referenced in context of the Emperor, so I do believe the Ecclesiarchy preaches about them in that way. Off the top of my head, in Nightbringer when the Ultramarines arrived on Pavonis, Brothers of the Snake the first short story, when the feudal world humans summoned the Marines, Rynn's World and Helsreach describes civilian reactions to Crimson Fists and Black Templars respectively, Lord of the Night has hive dwellers mistaking a Night Lord for an Astartes and spontaneously worship him, etc etc. I'm sure there are more but can't remember right now.

by "important" i think he meant as a part of semi-daily life.


marines are important like distant events are important.

do they ever effect me, yes.

do they have a day to day impact, rarely and when they do it is major.

Keep in mind that even the Black Crusades were often basically just rumor-fodder and occasionally just plain rumors once you got more than a sector away from the Eye of Terror. Oftentimes civilians wouldn't even hear of it until it's already over (source for this, by the way, is Cain's Last Stand, amongst other books). The Imperium is massive, almost spanning the entire galaxy.

Are Marines important on worlds they're fighting? Yes. But then that's a misleading question. THe MArines are so damn rare that on most worlds entire generations have gone by without them ever having passed through the system, nevermind setting foot on the world itself. The majority of humans are too busy just trying to make ends meet to really give anything more than bare lip service to such far-away things. They pray to the Emperor and his Saints, and hope that the paltry few thrones they're making on their jobs will be enough to support themselves and possibly their families.

As I already pointed out, your argument that Marines are unimportant because they are rare is completely specious.

"They are the Adeptus Astartes, the Angels of Death, the Saviours of Mankind." Sounds pretty important.

Every army book says platitudes like that. They, however, ARE unimportant in comparison to, for example, the Guard. Without the Space Marines, the Imperium might wither away. Without the Guard, the Imperium would simply cease to exist. I never said they were completely unimportant, however.

Regardless of THAT, however, the claim was made that Space Marines are somehow very important to the lives of the average citizen, which there is no proof of; indeed, there is no real reason to believe this is so.

Melissia wrote:Without the Space Marines, the Imperium would simply cease to exist. Without the Guard, the Imperium might wither away.

Fixed.

Anyhoo, they're important to the lives of the average citizen in a way, without the space marines, they would not be there. They may not have saved their lives, though they have saved the lives of their ancestors for sure.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Fixed.

That is so hilariously wrong that I'll assume you're being sarcastic.

If any imperial citizen from a non-combat planet is able to recognise a space marine and know roughly what they are (the whole 'Emperor's angel of death' thing) then I would class them as important culturally. Even if it is in terms of mythology, they are known.

We don't know exactly how they are known, whether they are preached about as part of the Imperial Cult, whether it is more from a military side (people also know a lot about the IG, probably due to recruitment, so might be that way) or some other source. Maybe information comes from various sources. But they are clearly talked about if only rarely.

Pretty much everyone in this thread thinks Melissia is wrong in some perspective... why are you still trying to persuade someone when A)you can't cite your sources, and B) Melissia probably wouldn't change his/her mind anyways...

Effectively, STOP FEEDING THE TROLL!

What makes you say that spiky marines in camo make dark angels? hmm... *calls ravenwing and deathwing*
yes, stay there just for being so smart I ordered you a pizza.



I've never had a fond look on the inquisition, but I'd hope they aren't as trigger happy as they seem. People are resources after all, surely they understand this. Pardoning full on daemonic possession or cooperating with xeno's I think they'd be mind wiped and sent on their merry way.

@Rashim: Troll calling troll?

Melissia is making many good points here. I for one agree with him/her. The Ecclesiarchy has a bone or two to pick the the SM, as they have thier own seperate creed concerning the Emperor. Why would the Ecclesiarchy put much effort into blowing the SM trumpet? Melissia is correct in arguing that SM are more of a legend or myth. Gogsnik's point that 'Jesus is important and we don't see him!' doesn't hold up here. Imperial Citizens don't beatify Space Marines, they get second hand rumours and word spreads, but they don't worship them like they do the saints, which is a better comparison to Gogsniks point.

And Mr.Inquisitor, I really hope you were joking there. The IG and PDF are just so...fundamental that the Imperium would literally dissapear overnight without them, while I can imagine the Imperium soldiering on without the SM for a while at least. (The sheer amount of resources dedicated to founding and maintaining a chapter are monumental)

SM are not a subtle weapon. Even in Kill teams, they're not going in for subtlety or scouting. They mean business, 'blowing stuff/people up' type business. I find it impossible that anyone thinks the SM could achieve anything covert. The best they could possibly manage is the activities of scouts and stakeouts behind enemy lines, which more often than not involve heavy fighting.

@1hadhq: Assassins come in many forms, Death Cult assasins are cheaper than chips, and Melissa stated that he did not necessarily mean Oficio Assasinorium operatives.

@ph34r: As I said, I would be happy to continue this conversation via PM, but the last thing I want is to bring religeon into this and get a lock. Please do send a PM. (En Garde!)

There's like, literally Trillions of Imperial Guardsmen and less than one million Space Marines right?

The only Space Marine force dedicated to stealth is a Chaos Legion, the Alpha Legion. They're pretty goddamn good at it too.

Emperors Faithful wrote: Melissia is correct in arguing that SM are more of a legend or myth.

I think Mel was arguing more that Space Marines are unimportant to the point of irrelevance to the average imperial citizen, who is more concerned with meeting his manufactorum quota, bumming a lho stick, fixing up his hab unit etc. In other words daily life. This I can agree with.

But I do think the civies are AWARE of the Space Marines and hold them in high reverence and esteem. Hell they're featured in propaganda holovids so how can't they be. They certainly do not think they are imaginary / myths. I can't think of any instance when a hive dweller saw a marine and said, wow! what's that thing?!

rabidaskal wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote: Melissia is correct in arguing that SM are more of a legend or myth.

I think Mel was arguing more that Space Marines are unimportant to the point of irrelevance to the average imperial citizen, who is more concerned with meeting his manufactorum quota, bumming a lho stick, fixing up his hab unit etc. In other words daily life. This I can agree with.

King Arthur is a legend. Does your knowledge of him dominate your livelihood? No. We're actually arguing the same point here.

But I do think the civies are AWARE of the Space Marines and hold them in high reverence and esteem. Hell they're featured in propaganda holovids so how can't they be. They certainly do not think they are imaginary / myths. I can't think of any instance when a hive dweller saw a marine and said, wow! what's that thing?!

Yes, but if you had been hearing the stories and seeing the pictures your entire life it's completely different from actually meeting one in real life. Say that there had been rumours of a regiment of ninja monkeys being designed to counter the actions of Somali pirates. It's one thing to have heard the sotries as a kid, hear about it from official sources and even see the pictures; it's another to see them in the flesh and in action, hence the shock and awe when ordinary citizens see them.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nitros14 wrote:There's like, literally Trillions of Imperial Guardsmen and less than one million Space Marines right?

The only Space Marine force dedicated to stealth is a Chaos Legion, the Alpha Legion. They're pretty goddamn good at it too.

That's mainly due to three things.

1) They often operate alone or in small groups, not as a cohesive military force as portrayed in Dawn of War

2) They utilise the populace and cultists to do the most of the fighting and avoid making themselves known to be the leaders of any movements, operating through figureheads under thier influence.

3) They are able to do so precisely becuase of the incredible ignorance of most Imperial Citizens regarding Space Marines and the Horus Heresy. If they are even tuaght about it all, they view Chaos Marines as silly stories to frighten the young uns into bed. Alpha Legion operatives realise this and find it all to easy to masquerade as the more well known Space Marines.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

King Arthur is a legend. Does your knowledge of him dominate your livelihood? No. We're actually arguing the same point here.

Hmmm yes I think we ARE saying the same thing darn these interwebs haha

Rashim wrote:Pretty much everyone in this thread thinks Melissia is wrong in some perspective... why are you still trying to persuade someone when A)you can't cite your sources, and B) Melissia probably wouldn't change his/her mind anyways...

I could change my mind if they could actually cite a damn source proving that Marines are somehow worshiped alongside the saints as people seem to want to believe. Naturally, noone can provide a source, I assume it's because they're wrong, but I can keep an open mind for anyone who can prove their point.

I could see it happening on a Marine recruiting world-- especially since Marines tend to recruit from Feral/Feudal worlds to begin with . They're basically gods of metal on those worlds anyway. But those aren't the average Imperial worlds...

"Cadian Blood", "The Sabbat Worlds Crusade" sourcebook, and the second book in the "Space Wolf" series.

Not worshiped as such, but venerated due to the fact that they take place on worlds where Marines were pivotal in some moment of their history.

Thank you. So we have evidence that worlds which have been majorly impacted by Marines venerate them (or at least that chapter at any rate).