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It's gonna be ok, we'll all figure out the new rules and a few months from now the game will be different and fun, or we'll all be building warmshordes...........


Edit for a......who goy us to 100pg??? This guy....

100!!!

I kinda figured youd be 1 foc for everything else but troops.
seems weird being limited to one troop

appearently if you cant hurt it in hth (dread, sentinel) whatever you can run away after hth, so tarpitting gets a big nerf. along with the witches they posted about earlier

im looking at brother corbulo (BA codex) and his reroll any dice once per game could be nice when choosing warlord traits, and or psychic powers

RegulusBlack wrote:everyone can run guard, so its kinda of a fallback, no brainer, default....

which kinda sucks cause i like my spec ops guard unit, now im just one of the masses.

I'm sorry, try that again? "Everyone" can't run Guard. Perhaps you mean to say that anyone can run Mech Plasma/Melta Vet Guard? That might be closer to the truth, but every Guard army is not a Vet Spam list.

Honestly, I'm curious to see how the new edition will affect the Guard scene. My group seems to be suggesting that PowerBlobs will be the way to go, muscling out MechSpam as the go-to build. Of course, that was from a discussion carried on before we knew that the Allies rules were officially in.

Pyriel- wrote:

or SW as they have some of the cheaper Terminators (which seem to be more resilient in 6th)

Might be fun times for Loganwing although I am afraid Draigowing is dead.

Vanilla terminators will find some new life though, so it's not all bad for GK players.

Also, Draigo's still a monster, so he'll certainly be a viable character, even if he won't have a paladin deathstar to accompany him anymore.

That said, I won't say it's the curtain call for Paladins just yet. The Paladin death star is beyond dead, and the apothecary is no longer a viable option, but multiple small units of Paladins could end up becoming viable options, especially since Draigo's still a good pick no matter what. With the enhanced close combat resiliency granted to them in 6th, a unit of 3-4 Paladins will make for great tarpitting units, or for small assassination squads.

As a Grey Knight player who loves terminators and hates PAGK, I'm in no hurry to shelf my GKT.

I'm sorry, try that again? "Everyone" can't run Guard. Perhaps you mean to say that anyone can run Mech Plasma/Melta Vet Guard? That might be closer to the truth, but every Guard army is not a Vet Spam list.

im sorry if my meaning was unclear, i was referencing allies as in All codex's (cept Nids) can take guard allies.

Pyriel- wrote:

i guess Sentinel tarpitting just went away, (glance glance your dead, sounds like a cheesy 80's song)

lol

Wonder how many hull points smallfry like sentinels and landspeeders will get.

probably 2

Can't decide if I want to plan out an Infantry spam 1500 Marine List, or keep things in Rhinos still. I'm also not sure if I should use my Vindicators, since, Blast weapons got nerfed, and now scatter the full distance. Not to mention, 3 Glances wrecks the bugger.

Will Scout Snipers be worth it? Hitting on 4s and wounding on 4s, 9 shots, doesn't mean there's a lot of wounds.

What to do, what to do. Guess I should wait for the FAQs to figure out what has Skyfire and what doesn't, as well. If anything new will get added, that is.

SkaerKrow wrote:

RegulusBlack wrote:everyone can run guard, so its kinda of a fallback, no brainer, default....

which kinda sucks cause i like my spec ops guard unit, now im just one of the masses.

I'm sorry, try that again? "Everyone" can't run Guard. Perhaps you mean to say that anyone can run Mech Plasma/Melta Vet Guard? That might be closer to the truth, but every Guard army is not a Vet Spam list.

Honestly, I'm curious to see how the new edition will affect the Guard scene. My group seems to be suggesting that PowerBlobs will be the way to go, muscling out MechSpam as the go-to build. Of course, that was from a discussion carried on before we knew that the Allies rules were officially in.

Well, to be honest, unless something gets drastically FAQed out, those AR 12, 6s to be hit, with 3 linked lass cannons in the world of i touch you thrice and you are dead, all for 130 aka less than a devastor with 4 missile lunchers,, vendettas, do strike me as a the noob i win button.

yeah Vendetta's are stupidly good as far as we know. pity cause I initially thought of running an Air Cav list when i first got into the hobby about 9 months ago.

now i may be forced to do it.

may be a lot easier to run guard now as im htinking Vendetta/Manticore spam with blobs and Sang Priests.

Spartan089 wrote:My gripe with 6th, aside from the imblances of allies and double foc, is the damn weakness of vehicles now. Sure they should've been tonned down a bit. But to nerf them into the ground. I run iron warriors, I just painstakingly got together 12 rhinos for my 2000 point list, now I'm told they are as strong in game as the plastic they are made out of?! My iron warriors do not walk into battle they get there in iron armored transports. All the while people are jumping on the necron bandwagon. "Please tell me how you were Always a big necron fan". I want to play transports that don't blow up when a Necron sneezes on them because I want to New spam, I want to use them because they are fluffy for my army.

Well if you think those rhino hulls are/were a bad buy, then just think how bad a land raider is.

I can take 6 razorbacks and get change back for a total of 18hps in 6 different targets.

The LR only gets 4hps in a single target.

I think the game, IF the rumors hold true, is turning into rock/paper/scissors. If you want to avoid the necron glance to death lists, take pods, just don't run into that GK list.

Personally, I think foot slogging logan wing spam is going to be very strong. You can easily fit 30+ ml's in that list, or slightly less and take a lc LF squad, just in case you really want to pen vehicles instead of glancing them to death.

Personally, I think the biggest screw is going to be tank traps. If you can purchase them in sufficient quantities, you simply shut down ground transports. If used properly and if you can take enough, it will screw up drop pod dreads. I suppose furioso's will be more(?) desirable, but then they get glanced to death.

RegulusBlack wrote:yeah Vendetta's are stupidly good as far as we know. pity cause I initially thought of running an Air Cav list when i first got into the hobby about 9 months ago.

now i may be forced to do it.

may be a lot easier to run guard now as im htinking Vendetta/Manticore spam with blobs and Sang Priests.

Well, i would not count on Sangs FNP to be granted to allieds just yet, there might be some limitations in regards as to what allied skills and buffs allow you to do.

None the less, yeah guard kind of seems like a no brainer this edition, yet again...

I wouldn't worry about flyer transports to much, if the rumors hold true.

With 2 hull points, a hard sneeze (even if it needs 6's to hit) is going to bring them down.

I may have missed it; why are people declaring Paladins dead? Does some rule in particular reduce them to mewling kittens? Or is it more a shift in the meta?

G. Whitenbeard wrote:

shank911 wrote:
I was thinking foot guard with some russes and venom spam

Some guy earlier mentioned 6 Grey Hunter squads with 3 Hydras

Please, don't spread false information.

Allies only lets you take 0-1 of a FOC choice.

Yes, and in that one heavy support selection you can take a squadron of 1-3 Hydras. So the 6 GH Squads and 3 Hydras is completely legal.

I don't think the flyer transports will be all that great, if the rumors hold that is, and they have 2 hull points.

A hard sneeze, even needing 6's to hit, will make them cost prohibitive.

yeah they arent super strong per se, however 2x Vendetta's = 1 LR cost wise (same amount of HP combined) plus Vens can attack enemy air/Ground/ and transport with impunity.
not saying your wrong but, they seem to be a very good unit going forward.

So where is the guy with the book, is he not posting anything today

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:I may have missed it; why are people declaring Paladins dead? Does some rule in particular reduce them to mewling kittens? Or is it more a shift in the meta?

I too don't understand how Paladins or ever Draigowing is dead. It simply requires a change in tactics like putting the apothacary (well maybe he's not worth the points anymore) and the brother banner guy in back, that or run them all in a straight line

DeffDred wrote:

timofeo wrote:

"What I love about the new Allied Detatchment rules is, they capture a flavor of the WH40K universe."

What flavor is that? Bad? Terrible? 'Cause, you know, SoB with Eldar has been so prevelent in recent years. Same goes for that rich history of Tau summoning Daemons and Gretchin supporting Space Wolves!

"How many of the great battles in the history, which have featured not just one army but an alliance between two forces pressed against the enemy?"

Um... IG and Marines? Chaos and Daemons? Oh... and Blood Angels and Necrons.

I think he only remembers the most recent of these "great battles".

He was talking about real world battles like say the English and Americans vs the Germans. Although I agree with the rest of your stuff.

He was talking about real world battles like say the English and Americans vs the Germans. Although I agree with the rest of your stuff.

I thin what you meant to say was when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.....

RegulusBlack wrote:

He was talking about real world battles like say the English and Americans vs the Germans. Although I agree with the rest of your stuff.

I thin what you meant to say was when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.....

Easy Bluto.

I forsee Blood Angles as the new ultimate army, with jump infantry getting so many buffs, and increased assault range.
I10 on charge and such they should be pretty darn amazing.

shank911 wrote:I forsee Blood Angles as the new ultimate army, with jump infantry getting so many buffs, and increased assault range.
I10 on charge and such they should be pretty darn amazing.

Are you being obtuse?

I wonder if warscythes count as power axes now....which would be fine, except for the Int 1....and if challenges really stop combat, lords w/scythes, sv 2+ and MSS are going to cause ALOT of cursing

That video look like it was a bit forced to me. Some forces defiantly should be able to ally, but it looks like most of the others got friends just so that they wouldn't feel left out or something.

Warscythes aren't power weapons in 5th, the were listed as ignoring arour
Therefore, they won't change

Fetterkey wrote:
This is totally wrong. It's possible to dodge gunfire at close range, because the angles involved mean that a smaller movement from you necessitates a larger movement from the gun tracking you. When Trinity said "Dodge this" in The Matrix, that was ironically one bullet that even a normal human could actually have dodged. Obviously, dodging after the shot is fired is impossible at close distances, but it's basically impossible at long distances too, and at close distances sudden movements may throw the attackers off.

It's not totally wrong, for that to be totally wrong, the principle that I established would have to be wrong, which it isn't, shorter distances equal shorter travel times and larger targets due to the rules of perspective. I invite you to strike some bullseye plates at 50 yards and then move them out to 500 yards and then tell me which one was easier to hit. That's in addition to the fact that the laws of physics necessitate two things - 1 loss of velocity over distance due to air friction, 2, projectile drop, as well as wind drift. Not to mention, those very same angles cause small angular dissimilarities to be more pronounced at range. You may hit something with 6 MOA at 50 meters, but at 400 meters, good luck.

Plus, there's that whole thing that, it really doesn't matter how fast you are, your 10 miles per hour body weight (not considering the laws of inertia that make near-instantaneous movements impossible and speed a progressively acquired trait that has to be overcome in order to shift momentum) does not even remotely compare to the awesome speed of a 5.56 NATO cartridge traveling at 3000 feet per second.

Fetterkey wrote:

TedNugent wrote:Then again, the idea of "hull points" is ridiculous from an RP standpoint, and it's in the game, so I don't know.

In real life, vehicle crews often abandon their tanks if they take one penetrating hit. Allowing vehicles to withstand multiple penetrating and glancing hits is generous from that perspective. If you don't like hull points, think of them as "crew morale points." For flyers, on the other hand, the idea of hull/"structural integrity" points actually makes sense.

Ok, how many Tiger I crewmen abandoned their tanks after having multiple 2 pounder shells bounce harmlessly off their frontal armor? If that was the case, obviously, the rate of attrition among Tiger commanders would have been significantly higher than the roughly 6-1 average kill ratio sustained by all units of Tigers thru-out the war. Oh, not to mention, hull points are triggered on glancing hits, not penetrating hits in the 6th e rules according to the latest rumors I have read in this thread from a gentleman who supposedly has an advance copy. Which means in 6e we're talking about a shell bouncing off your frontal armor, failing to penetrate, and 3 of those at random angles and different impact locations cause your tank to inexplicably and spontaneously explode in spite of the fact that your 5 inch thick ceramite armor was never penetrated once. Tanks have to explode for a reason, typically because their gas tank was hit, ammunition storage ignited, some other vital and catastrophic event. Otherwise, more usually a penetrating shell would for instance decapitate the loader and take an arm off the tank commander.

Crewmen typically abandoned their tanks under these primary circumstances - 1 a lack of fuel, 2 a disabled tank, 3 burning smoke fumes

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the T-34/76 in Operation Barbarossa but the reports were that multiple hits from .5 cm shells were sustained by German Panzers before the T-34s carefully engaged them in turn.

Suffice to say, even if what you're saying is accurate, I'm totally unconvinced.

That's simply ridiculous-- a certain number of casualties are naturally expected before you get into assault. If you think the rules should allow your assault units to charge without ever being exposed to danger on the way in, I think it's safe to say you're out of touch with game balance as a whole.

You lose casualties due to in-sequence shooting. It's a turn-based game. You sustain casualties from in-sequence shooting. Adding out-of-sequence shooting into that, all sustained before you walk into assault, obviously fragments an already carefully aligned game balance. I can only suggest that you wait until the new rules are in play and you will see immediately what I'm talking about.

It's really in particular the fact that out-of-sequence defensive fire is triggered -by- an assault that makes the entire concept of a dedicated assault unit stupid if it cannot handily sustain the defensive fire and still overcome the assault phase.

shank911 wrote:I forsee Blood Angles as the new ultimate army, with jump infantry getting so many buffs, and increased assault range.
I10 on charge and such they should be pretty darn amazing.

I think they are improved, but I don't think BA is going to be the new ultimate army.

Now, if the rumors hold true about rage, well BA can do pretty good at just tabling opponents.

shank911 wrote:I forsee Blood Angles as the new ultimate army, with jump infantry getting so many buffs, and increased assault range.
I10 on charge and such they should be pretty darn amazing.

Yay!

On a side note and in general, there is a lot of nonsense going on in this thread, a lot of learned people talking politely, a lot of learned people going at each other and baiting, and some people just curious and asking questions. It's beginning to be a bit of a mixed bag, so, to no one in particular but for the general health of this thread and everyone's continued enjoyment of it, let's review 2 of our 3 rules.





Finally, given my 'job' here and after the great experience of Adepticon, I will be actually learning to play 40k for the first time this edition hopefully. I am very much looking forward to reading the thoughts of some of the great players running around this thread in the coming weeks... and figuring out how to build my BA, although it seems DC and jump packs are the way to go, with no razor spam... perhaps allied with GK or Codex to get some riflemen or other long distance punch into them? In any case, it is fun to be engaged in the edition launch instead of just casually observing. Thanks to everyone who is providing learned discourse, and especially to Kroothawk for keeping the first post awesome and up to date!

Back to our regularly scheduled program!

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:I may have missed it; why are people declaring Paladins dead? Does some rule in particular reduce them to mewling kittens? Or is it more a shift in the meta?

Wound allocation destroys their durability, you can no longer spread the wounds across the unit in order to boost their resilience, and you can't feed all the ID wound to Draigo anymore either.

Because of that, it's impossible to justify the cost of Paladins anymore, at least in large squads. The Paladin deathstar is just a horrible idea now.

As I've said above, if Paladins are to have a future, it will be set up as multiple small units.