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So your argument all along was that when multiple units of the enemy army, or just incredibly shooty units, pour their entire firepower against a 50 point Razorback, it dies, and that's what you call "dying the first time it's shot at". On what merits exactly are you arguing against anyone in this thread about the future of 40K or the metagame overall? It's more than hilarious that as an example you choose Long Fangs which can split fire, meaning, if before the enemy thought he would need 5 Long Fangs against a Rhino, he would now split fire the 5 missiles against two Rhinos and kill or remove wounds from both of them. I'm dying a little inside when even trying to figure out what your actual point is. What kind of garbage do you play against? Armies that brought three 'blocks' of anti-tank firepower, meaning that because you brought 8 Razorbacks you are at an insane advantage? That's your point?

When talking about dying in a single shot I had been talking about the viability of mech spam, min maxing, and MSU builds. Those are based around bricks of high volume firepower with vehicular outliers that provide good numbers of special/heavy weapons per point. "They died in the first shot anyway" was in comment to the fact that anti mech firepower tends to be an all or nothing affair. Hydras, psyfledreads, devastators, land speeders, ravagers, etc can't split fire. The long fangs can, but will generally split fire between two transports on the hopes that it can take out both. It wasn't really a meaningful inclusion since it doesn't actually invalidate the concept of MSU. It's the only unit in the game capable of doing that and it can't bring to bear enough firepower to reliably kill two av11 tanks a turn. It also doesn't invalidate MSU since long fangs are quite likely the best single example of a min maxed unit in 40k.

MSU is a defensive stratagem that takes advantage of the built in superiority of min maxing in 40k while taking advantage of any opponent who didn't do the same. By having many low value targets with a lot of firepower you invalidate enemy shooting by making most of it "overkill", or by providing too many targets for your opponent to kill in the course of the game. laserbacks are 70 point lascanons, barely more expensive than a devastator with a lascanon and less than a terminator with cyclone. It's comparably resilient to the terminator and your opponent must exert significantly more points in killing it then you lose in the exchange.

If you don't want to actually engage in the discussions I was having please don't interject to say I'm wrong. I don't even know what your point was. A poster said that razors were far too flimsy to make razorspam a useful strategem and I said that "most tended to die in one shot anyway". They did. You didn't nickle and dime razorbacks to death, they exploded when an anti mech squad looked at them or when 3 meltaguns get in range. The entire point of MSU is to make it so that your opponent spends 200+ points to kill one 70 point las plas while you spend your firepower killing enemies of much more worth. It's about attrition and good trades.

I find it very unlikely that sixth will reduce the incidence of MSU. If anything shooty builds and especially MSU are getting more powerful given the weakening of cover and the removal of fifth editions version of kill points.

MajorTom11 wrote:I will be actually learning to play 40k for the first time this edition hopefully.

LOL! What a n00b!

Has there been any talk of changes to "after deep strike"? Will you still be able to run/shoot but not allowed to assault?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:I will be actually learning to play 40k for the first time this edition hopefully.

LOL! What a n00b!

I am lol! But I will learn , lot of great people around here to ask.

To the big debaters that have been going back and forth today - I am having a great time reading your posts and debate, honestly it is interesting and to me pretty high level stuff. I think everyone can benefit from all your expertise, however, try to keep it light, disagreement doesn't need to be aggressive or get personal, you are all smart enough to continue the debate without insinuating things about other people's personalities or whether they have the right to speak.

TedNugent wrote:words words words words

Nothing you just said actually applies to what I said, man. I'm not saying you can dodge a bullet once it's going towards you. You obviously can't. You can dodge gunfire, though, because you can see a gun coming up and avoid it. At close distances, this is easier than at medium distances. Go look at some Youtube videos of police encounters or robberies.

TedNugent wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

TedNugent wrote:Then again, the idea of "hull points" is ridiculous from an RP standpoint, and it's in the game, so I don't know.

In real life, vehicle crews often abandon their tanks if they take one penetrating hit.

Ok, how many Tiger I crewmen abandoned their tanks after having multiple 2 pounder shells bounce harmlessly off their frontal armor?

Beats me, but having shots hit you and not do anything don't really qualify as penetrating, do they?

Somehow glossed over this in my post! This is also attributed to therion and followed what I quoted from him last.

You tell me then how the flow of battle goes for 6 Razorbacks with GH, 3 Long Fang squads and 3 units of TWC and an assortment of heroes, against an army with 8 flyers like some of the lists me and Maelstrom have posted on the army lists forum. Many other types of lists than those will emerge, and the end result will be that Razorspam is simply gone from the competitive circuit. When even two army books build TAC lists that table Razorspams of all varieties in under four turns, that army is simply no longer viable and its' removal from the deck of competitive armies has further chain effects in the metagame. Feel free to rage against change. You'll just end up as one of those wash outs who have to copy a GT winner's list later.

Well first of all the list you posted had an illegal number of troops. You need four.

I think you'll start to have issues when all your flyers come in different reserve turns. They have to be in reserve if you remember. Then all your squadrons actually get to do is shoot 3 razorbacks if you get them all. Unless the squadron rules changed in sixth (I don't have the book) you still have to shoot the same target, do you not? Thus you are wasting ~450 points to kill 70. Flyers are also very limited in the movements they get to make, minimum 18" with only a 90 degree turn means you might end up with nothing to shoot at all. Your army certainly could beat them, guard did mech spam better then wolves in my opinion, but if I remember right vendettas only have two hull points since they're flyers, so they're going to go down quick.

Your listed army works on the exact same principles and really only serves to prove my point. It's an MSU mech spam list. So is the necron list you mentioned. You're not disproving what I was saying. You don't even seem to be arguing against my points. If you just want to say that razospam specifically might die, maybe. It was never the best MSU build out there. But now you're looking into the future of the games meta and using untested lists from a ruleset that isn't out to prove your points. That doesn't seem very honest to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MajorTom11 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:I will be actually learning to play 40k for the first time this edition hopefully.

LOL! What a n00b!

I am lol! But I will learn , lot of great people around here to ask.

To the big debaters that have been going back and forth today - I am having a great time reading your posts and debate, honestly it is interesting and to me pretty high level stuff. I think everyone can benefit from all your expertise, however, try to keep it light, disagreement doesn't need to be aggressive or get personal, you are all smart enough to continue the debate without insinuating things about other people's personalities or whether they have the right to speak.

I will do my best to keep it calm!

Eldar question (hypothetical of course.):

Do you think a Farseer + Seer Council will count as one choice as far as allies are concerned?

I'l love to bring in the above mentioned and 1 or 2 squads of pathfinders as an Eldar / Tau alliance.

I think Daemons w/a IG blob including 5 HWT's is gonna be just nasty

Thunderfrog wrote:Eldar question (hypothetical of course.):

Do you think a Farseer + Seer Council will count as one choice as far as allies are concerned?

I'l love to bring in the above mentioned and 1 or 2 squads of pathfinders as an Eldar / Tau alliance.

I obviously don't know the wording, but if I had to make a bet, I'd put my money down on you being unable to take both.

Anyone else exited about fortifications?
Fortress of Redemption- "set includes a twin-linked lascannon interceptor gun, two heavy bolters and a missile silo." I love the interceptor and I can't wait to see what the missile silo will have as stats!

Skyshield landing pad- "Landing pads are launch bases used by flight-capable craft to unload or evacuate troops and vital personnel. and has field generators that protect the craft and its crew from incoming fire." Worded like you may have a hard time dropping off troops if you don't use the pad!

Imperial Bastion- "resilient enough to withstand an orbital bombardment, set includes an Icarus-pattern lascannon and additional components for personalising this modular building." it shows it having 4 heavy bolters (one on each side).

Aegis defense line- "set includes four double blast shield sections and four single blast shield sections, they provide 28" of defence lines. Also included is a quad-gun emplacement that can be placed onto one of two different mounts supplied." I wonder what the stats are on the gun and barricades, the gun looks to be 2 TL autocannons though.

Imperial Strongpoint- "including two plastic Bastions and three plastic Aegis Defence Lines." Wow, that is 2 Icarus lascannons, 8 Heavy bolters (or something else), 84" of defense, and what looks to be 3x 2TL autocannons. Lot of firepower.

I personally think that the fortress of redemption looks like it will have the most heavy firepower, while the others are geared for anti infantry and light vehicle takedown. Am happy that I can use this aegis defense line that has been literally collecting dust on the top shelf unpainted that I bought for a rifleman dread conversion. What do you guys think of it all?

Quotes taken from GW, so not rumors.

Wowza, so they did balance out allies... armies that are "unwilling" allies might not be desireable, and also restricting what you can take is nice too. I'm sure it will be in the FAQ that, for example, if necrons/blood angels ally, you cannot take special characters and things, and if two units are within 12" of one another on a roll of a 1 they do nothing that turn. So while there may be some great combos to be found it'll probably be balanced out in the end for the mostpart. Also, I'm not too worried about the multiple FOC's at 2k+... seems to me from what we're seeing that taking lots of heavies and things is more detrimental in many missions, as well as the fact that armor and things are greatly nerfed while things like MC's got greatly buffed. Really stinks with the power weapons though, yet another blow to "nerf wyches into sucking!" Now my dark lances will be my primary terminator killers lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:I think Daemons w/a IG blob including 5 HWT's is gonna be just nasty

Balances out in the end tho; those HWT's are cutting into points you'd normally use for soul grinders, fiends, and crushers :( Assuming you take Plague squads normally for troops, whom are cheap as hell.

I am pretty sure you cannot take Imperial Strongpoint. You can take Aegis, Bastion, Fortress or Landing. The 1st post have some info on what each does. I think fortifications are simply anti-air mostly.

leohart wrote:I am pretty sure you cannot take Imperial Strongpoint. You can take Aegis, Bastion, Fortress or Landing. The 1st post have some info on what each does. I think fortifications are simply anti-air mostly.

I don't see them not letting you take imperial strongpoints, its their most expensive one, so my guess is they will try to sell it by making it the best you can get. But ya, I did see that post, but it just doesn't make sense to me personally that they won't try to reel in that $135.

Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=2700228

Bottom paragraph

@Ryan_A: I think of Imperial Strongpoint more as the buy 1 get 2 thing so you can buy it with a friend. It comes with 3 aegis too.

My biggest question is: how do I deploy my fortification? During deployment? After choosing sides? Before infiltration?

l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=2700228

Bottom paragraph

Like that surprises anyone :p
Anything with a + shaped flying base is a flyer, it is a flyer base

Thunderfrog wrote:Eldar question (hypothetical of course.):

Do you think a Farseer + Seer Council will count as one choice as far as allies are concerned?

I'l love to bring in the above mentioned and 1 or 2 squads of pathfinders as an Eldar / Tau alliance.

If the Seer Council doesn't take up a HQ slot then I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to take one. Same thing goes for a Necron Overloard with his Royal Court. The Royal Court doesn't take up a HQ slot so should be available for an allied force if you take an Overlord.

quilava1 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=2700228

Bottom paragraph

Like that surprises anyone :p
Anything with a + shaped flying base is a flyer, it is a flyer base

lol Doesn't surprise me one bit, I was just posting to confirm it for people.

quilava1 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=2700228

Bottom paragraph

Like that surprises anyone :p
Anything with a + shaped flying base is a flyer, it is a flyer base

Does that mean that they're finally standardizing these bases? Do skimmers have to have the skimmer base now?

l0k1 wrote:

quilava1 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=2700228

Bottom paragraph

Like that surprises anyone :p
Anything with a + shaped flying base is a flyer, it is a flyer base

lol Doesn't surprise me one bit, I was just posting to confirm it for people.

I would have been more surprised if they weren't. Hey, this Razorwing might LOOK like a supersonic aircraft, but in reality all it does is float and shoot :3

Makes sense really. They are aircraft more than they are skimmers.

I do wonder how they're going to handle troops inside buildings, and especially very large buildings like the Fortress of Redemption.

ShumaGorath wrote:

quilava1 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=2700228

Bottom paragraph

Like that surprises anyone :p
Anything with a + shaped flying base is a flyer, it is a flyer base

Does that mean that they're finally standardizing these bases? Do skimmers have to have the skimmer base now?

Skimmers are supposed to be using the Skimmer Bases now, since it's in the rules that you are required to use the bases provided.

Crazyterran wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

quilava1 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=2700228

Bottom paragraph

Like that surprises anyone :p
Anything with a + shaped flying base is a flyer, it is a flyer base

Does that mean that they're finally standardizing these bases? Do skimmers have to have the skimmer base now?

Skimmers are supposed to be using the Skimmer Bases now, since it's in the rules that you are required to use the bases provided.

Where in the rulebook is that..?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Makes sense really.

I do wonder how they're going to handle troops inside buildings, and especially very large buildings like the Fortress of Redemption.

Probably the same as before as there was nothing wrong with the rules, they were just underused as having a bastion is a huge advantage.

@Zid

Not so much. At 2k without 2 force orgs (since I don't see most events letting you use 2 even at 2k) you still wind up with:

4xChariots of Slaanesh Hit&Run, Chariots, and Strength
3x6 Fiends
2x5 Plague Bearers
2xDP's w/Wings
1xCCS naken
1xPCS w/4 GL's
2xInfantry Squads w/Autocannon
2x3 LC HWT's
3x3 AC HWT's

I think that's pretty solid

A Bastion with an AA gun is cheaper than a squad of sniper scouts. AV14 too. What's not to like?

I haven't been paying more than a glance here and there at this forum as the majority of it is foggy speculation about something that I'd rather read first hand from the source.

That said, one thing of personal interest (which may have been addressed already) is whether or not there will be updated rules for Kill Teams. Is there any information about that?

leohart wrote:A Bastion with an AA gun is cheaper than a squad of sniper scouts. AV14 too. What's not to like?

The fact that it sits their, gets glanced to death and dies? not to mention most likely BS 2 and no cover saves EVER!!!!
of course, its still a nice addition

Hulksmash wrote:@Zid

Not so much. At 2k without 2 force orgs (since I don't see most events letting you use 2 even at 2k) you still wind up with:

4xChariots of Slaanesh Hit&Run, Chariots, and Strength
3x6 Fiends
2x5 Plague Bearers
2xDP's w/Wings
1xCCS naken
1xPCS w/4 GL's
2xInfantry Squads w/Autocannon
2x3 LC HWT's
3x3 AC HWT's

I think that's pretty solid

Thats assuming vehicles are common, plus now we'll have to run something to take down aircraft (give those DP's bolts!). But yeah, could work well! I'm a fateweaver kinda guy, and the new Daemon fear rule really makes me hot and bothered to run some hounds/seekers... more beasts the better, they ignore terrain now! But we'll see how the "you can only take certain stuff" pans out.... As I said, I reckon they balanced it pretty decently I hope (i.e. Pallyspam GK cannot take a farseer....)

leohart wrote:A Bastion with an AA gun is cheaper than a squad of sniper scouts. AV14 too. What's not to like?

Ah yes, but can a bastion move or score? So there seems to be a pretty good balance, and of course in a bastion your unit is useless. But ya, I can see people spending the bare minimum point units and throwing them in a bastion.