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I have a 2000pt Zilla army that has won several RTT's although I run it extremely different than the normal Zilla lists people see. Even against shooty marines, it brings them down with ease. In fact I've taken a break from it to play dark eldar after the last tournament with them where by turn 3 I had opponents walk away from the table. Other opponents simply ran trying to salvage as many points as they can past turn 3.
It simply brings too much firepower to bear for any army to handle. It's pretty simple and straight forward which I think is what makes it so nasty there is no trick so no way to gimp it.
It has no synapse dependancy so targetting synapse is a waste of time. It uses brute force and sheer number of shots to bring down it's enemies so whether it's 10 guys with 3+ armor saves or 30 guys with 6+ armor saves it cuts them to pieces. Anything armor 12 or less it shreds with ease, what ever little armor 13+ is on the table I have just enough Venom cannons, and warp blast to handle.
It's nasty so nasty I've reach the point where I feel bad to even put it on the table. I can't say Dark Eldar is much better. Last tournament with it saw 2 massacres before any modifiers just on straight unit points. One non-massacre against Mech Tau that saw fit to cheat me as I was at the time ignorant to Tau.

Well, I have not lost a game to nids yet. Thou I have not had a chance to play the zilla list. Thou this list would die so fast its not even funny with the sheer amount of AP I put out. Ontop of the body count that the nid player would have to deal with. Thou the main nid armies I have had a tuff time are the swarm. Thou they still die, it just takes a lot of marines to break them down. Int 5 and Str 5 for homies is tuff thing for my marines to handle. Mostly because I have units that require my heavy bolters and bolter to burn down first.

Tarval everybody puts out lots of AP2 and 3 shots at tournaments and I just placed 2nd in the last tournament with this list, and it's my 3rd trophy with them. Like my Eldar friend who said "I have enough AP2 to take out 4 carnifex's a turn." yeah turn 4 I still had 4 out of 5 carnifex's on the table.

The reason it's so hard is if you shoot at the MC's you let the genestealers get on top of you. If you shoot at the genestealers you let the MC's get on top of you. They easily force moral checks, and at -5LD within 18" everyone spends the rest of the game running backwards. Being Nids everything moves up through cover easily so 4 lascannon shots, subtract the misses, and fails to wound, you get maybe 1 wound on a Carnifex after I make my cover saves.

I've fought against every army out there with this list except old 1000 sons, and old Slaanesh.

I played a godzilla list for a while at my LGS, and I retired it. It was defeated exactly once, due to a combination of my opponent failing exactly two armor saves the entire game, dropping his demons exactly where he wanted them all at once, and my complete inability to roll anything above a 2. Almost all of the games were overwhelming wins, with several close ones, and maybe half a dozen ties. I've retired it, and after all the whining I heard about how insanely broken it was to give a carnifex 5 wounds or 2 TL devourers, I'm running a swarm army with no MCs at all.

I sold mine for the same reasons. It was structured so well it ran itself. No fun just beating people down. I rather enjoy the closer fought games were it comes down to a decision or two.

You guys need to find opponents who don't suck, or help them build better army lists.

Plenty of armies out there can challenge Nidzilla.

So what if all your Gen get on me.  You fail to grasp the five man combat squad. yes you will move in and yes you will kill the five men. Now what will you do, your big creatures are all dead and your few remaining squads are out in the open getting ready to see bolter heaven.   All you will ever get from me is five men. If you assault me, five men and then I get to return fire. Swarm armies are the ones that give me a bit of a problem because I have to focus my fire.  Dealing with a bunch of big creature would make it easy. You shoot me, I save 3 plus, I shoot you, you die. Last tourny I faced four big creature, turn two both fex had moved behind terrian so they would not die. The winged Hive tyrant was dead and I still had about 90 percen of my army.  The guy had one Tyrant left walking upbehind a hill as to not draw fire. It had already lost one of the body guards and one other had a wound on it.  BTW, this was the most terrian I had ever played on, thus it was hard to get a shoot off. Winged Tyrant died in hth, baited it, and trapped it, and killed it.

Mind you, I just dont shoot and shoot.  While back I played this list, two zorn, two carni, two tyrants/one flyer, four units of gen, homires and one two units of guants.  I told him I would meet him in the middle. It came down to the the wire with me taking the crushing victory because I controled table quarters. Winged Hive Tyrant and carny and four guants that was it. Thou I did not have much either, that game just rocked out with everything that happened. We both had some really great rolls and bad rolls. He was just uggg on how many marines he had to chop threw. Three plus save, saved the day.

Gen heavy army would not come over the hill because of the heavy bolter he would have to face. He went around the hill and faced the 50 or so bolters on that side instead.  Thou I lost some marines on that side, I was able to widdle him down with ease.

Two tyrants, two carnies, 128 hormies, turn two all the hormies had died, end of the game the hive tyrant winged was able to kill two marines, everything else was dead. 3plus saves keep um coming.

I have faced it all but the zilla list. I just dont see it holding any weight with my army. The other day I faced the Falcon list and it lost badly. Finally able to find somebody that plays that list, thou it was at a RTT.  zoomed up in the falcon and popped out his unit of bashees. That unit thrashed my assault squad with ease, thou the return was not what he was thinking it would be.  I had taken everything off the falcon, you know they are hard to kill. I just did not think they would be that hard to kill! Thou I made a mistake of attacking the reapers. I should of finished off the grounded falcon. The other two had returned behind the trees to find shelter from the heavy weapon. One more hit and they would of died from over kill. 

82 marines, 7 ap heavy weapon, 8 ap  assault weapon. 7 power weapons.   Mind you, there is no Min/Max in this list. It is just a horde SM army that has not lost a game yet.  Not trying to brag or anything because I know a few list that will give it hell. Just saying that if we started out 24 in away, well you are looking at one plus dead monster arleady. let alone what I will do once you advance. If you do get with in assault range. You will find five men standing ready for the charge. Once they are dead, you will then face the fire line again. If not, I might even assault you once your hive tyrants are dead.  I already know your gen are daed from the flamers and such once I jump over to meet you in the middle. IE the new middle because you moved and scuttled, or jumped.

 

My list is 1850 as well. Thou 2k, I have yet to find anything worth getting at that point level.  If anybody lives in Texas DFW are, I would love to face the drop horde IG and or horde IG on foot.  Thou I see the bolter bringing death once again because of the AP 5.  Would not mind facing the the Monster list either. That way I can finish out my list of armies faced.

 

Thou the Lysander army might give me some hell. Thou, I faced two six man units before in a list both on the table at the same time and both died.

Not bragging please, just understand most dont understand the str of this army.

Last guy I faced ask me if I was the guy with the horde SM army. I told him yes and pulled it up on the table. The look was priceless and I do mean priceless. This guy (forgot name sorry) was the best game I have played in awhile. He was just one hell of a guy and really enjoyed the game. Thou we had to reset up two times because the judge did not explain the mission. Then the game ended early because they needed the space for the events to come. So, i moved up and started to fire to find out the game was ending this turn. Well, I kinda did not have  chance to move to the objective, thus giving him enough points to pull it back into a draw.  OH well, 20 man unit left and his champ just entered play. I think I still had around 75 guys.  Thou we really had a great game and I just wanted to say thanks again for that game bud. His BT army was painted well, really frigging nice with all the little xtras that BT has to offer.

 

Best of luck, maybe will be able to test our armies one day. Thou I think this is the last I will see of this army. I have collected and painted everything back to basic standard as when I had it before. Thou I might add to the paint to give it some more flar, it was mostly painted when I started. Thus I stuck with the same type of paint and painted them the same to keep them all in line.

As of now I am working on an IG army and cant wait to get the rest of it. Its going to be more of a tank army. Why you ask, because I am tired of putting 82 to 92 marines on the board. uggg

 

Too long to be a troll. Too irrelevant to be anything else... Time paradox!

No, just telling it how it is. P

 

Fire Line, hth, you name.

Let's get one thing out of the way: Godzilla Nids are a list that is winning a ton of games right now. Lots and lots of people are finding them to be a list that's very easy to win with, and very hard to beat. This is true to the point that some people even consider them unbeatable. No matter how confident in your skills and your list, you're one datapoint. There's tons of datapoints that say Godzilla is an exceptionally strong list.

On to your quote: You start out by saying that all the big creatures are dead. That's a funny place to start. We're talking about 6 models, each with T6, 4W and a 3+ save at the very least. Many will have T7, 5W, etc. etc. You're just gunning these guys down without a problem? How, exactly?



What's the actual list?

Something to consider: A Gunfex typically has 5W and is sitting in cover. Let's assume it's got a 5+ save from that cover. In order to kill that Gunfex, Marines would need 13 Lascannon shots on average. Based on your description, it doesn't sound like you've got 13 Lascannons in our list. It sounds like you've got 7 at most. You're killing a Gunfex every other turn with that volume of fire. You'd kill three in a 6 turn game, if nobody in your list were dying, which they most assuredly are, with S8 Strangler shots falling on them, S10AP2 Vencom Cannon shots, and dozens and dozens of S6 Devourer shots.

Weren't you just saying all the big bugs would be dead? Doesn't sound like it...

My friend wins tournaments regularly with Eldar he's got 3 heavy support units that put out 36 shots of S6 AP2 at 36" that re-roll failed hits, and wounds. Nobody shoots like Eldar and even thats not enough to bring my MC's down. He's the only player who manages to even bring them down as at the last tournament I didn't lose a single Carnifex, or Hive Tyrant the entire game and I fought Death Guard, Bad Moons, and Ultramarines.

Why? they were either too busy shooting at the genestealers, or they tried to shoot the big bugs for a turn or two and then the genestealers hit them. Meanwhile the MC's tore whatever wasn't locked in CC to pieces.

This army has put 3 Trophies on my desk so far, and will continue to do so in the future. I also go to RTT's in several states if I could only stop getting bashed on sportsmanship I'd do better but most people will give you a 1 after they throw their hands up turn 3 and surrender because there is nothing they can do literally. I say your turn, their vehicles are destroyed, and their troops are re-grouping from running away. So we finish up their assault phase, and then it's my turn again.

2 hours for a 2000pt tournament and I wrap up games in 45 minutes or less.

ok ill take that challenge

i know nids are tough and all of that but you ask what can take them down in quick fashion..ok ill take my dark eldar against them any day...
17 dark lances str8 ap2 (4 wytch squads w raider archtye wytch retinue raider 3 ravagers)
3 distengrators str7 ap2 or 9 shots str4 ap3( bye bye gene stealers)
16 str8 ap2 blasters 2 each wycth squad 2 each for the 3 warrior squads

compare a genestealer to a wytch squad
ill take my int 6 versus your 5? ill take my 4+ invo save versus your 5
i hit on 3's ws 4 to your 2
you hit on 4's your rending doesnt affect me in any way in cc its still a 4+ regardless i move as fast if not faster than you

plus i have combat drugs anything from +1 ws, which you hit on 5's, +1 str my personal fav, re roll misses close combat, 12 " charge my second fav, extra attack always good always goes first .....ehh i do anyway most of the time...

even if my wytches are in cc, i still have a lot of moving fire bases to hit your mc's you can only hit so many of them and yet no matter what its still a glance

and i have other things up my sleeves i havent given them all away yet

nids and ig are the 2 i want t play the least but it doesnt phase me i approach them all the same way

Posted By DarkKhabal on 08/24/2007 8:10 PM
ok ill take that challenge


compare a genestealer to a wytch squad
ill take my int 6 versus your 5? ill take my 4+ invo save versus your 5
i hit on 3's ws 4 to your 2
you hit on 4's your rending doesnt affect me in any way in cc its still a 4+ regardless i move as fast if not faster than you

plus i have combat drugs anything from +1 ws, which you hit on 5's,

More proof that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Play it out yourself. Get some models and proxy a Godzilla list. Play both sides.

You've got a lot of Skimmers to find hiding places for. Can you hide all of them? Dakkafexes will make very short work of AV10, Skimmer or not. 8 shots, 6 hit, 3 glances. I don't like your odds there. Ravagers don't fare much better.

By all means, move a Ravager to shoot down a Gunfex. You'll need 13 Dark Lance shots to kill just one. More if it's got upgraded T7. More if it's found better than 5+ cover. All your Ravagers combined have only 9 shots. Once they've shot, now they're taking an S8 Barbed Strangler and 2 shots of S10 Venom Cannon. If you're very lucky you'll only get Shaken.

Honestly, I like the DE's strengths against Godzilla. They have a lot of powerful shooting, and they don't bother to be tough, which is useless against Godzilla firepower and assault. I still don't like their chances.

you went and forgot all the blasters.. thats 16 more shots you neglected
and out of 9 ships how many can you shoot a round

im not saying its the answe to everythingr but ill take my chances over any other army out there

and after the gene stealers are gone what else do you have?

and to answer your question if the table is set to standard with terrain i can hide most anything until im moving and shooting

ill take my glances... you only can hit 3 at a time if you hit at all

"""By all means, move a Ravager to shoot down a Gunfex. You'll need 13 Dark Lance shots to kill just one. """

what? you are so over stating your chances there. And i dont have to kill it when its swarmed in cc it wont be shooting at anything and since ill be wounding you on 2's with the succubus i like my odds a lot better dont you think ?

Look for you tomorrow night and will talk some more. Well, fyi you dont have to kill a gun fex with shooting. I dropped them in hth as well. Power fist over a gun fex any day.  I will go into more detail tomorrow night.

Posted By DarkKhabal on 08/24/2007 9:05 PM

what? you are so over stating your chances there. And i dont have to kill it when its swarmed in cc it wont be shooting at anything and since ill be wounding you on 2's with the succubus i like my odds a lot better dont you think ?

I like where you are trying to go, but you are wrong in a lot of your examples. Yes, dark eldar can have a reasonable chance to kill a Godzilla list. They might be a rock to their scissors.

Before the 4th edition Eldar codex came out, Ulthwe with a massive seer council was dominating tournaments.  What was their scissors? Demonhunters! But they are so rare, and after a game or two at tournaments, they where often heading in opposite directions. So just because a rare army can do well against them, does not mean that they are not one of the top lists.

And you are wrong about some of your ideas. Just the stats alone are not close to being right.

Wyches vs genestealers is a pretty even fight, so it would depend on who got the charge. (The wyches have WS+combat drugs vs. Genestealers strength+toughness)


But the answer to wyches is not genestealers, but the big bugs. The halving of the weapon skill does not count against strength 6, and the wyches will have all kinds of trouble against T6. All you need is to get a big bug of two into assault, and all they have to do is do one more wound than the succubus (which does 1 wound on average with an agonizer), and the wyches will run for their lives. It looks like you are thinking about using poison blades which is a huge mistake because the TMC still get a 3+ save. That means that there is a good chance you will be beaten in combat, and break.

And you neglect their 12" range.

I'm not trying to tell you how the whole game plays out. I'm just showing you that it's not all about your Ravagers killing everything, and your Wyches parading around laughing. You're talking about going against a list that will kill any of your Skimmers as soon as they see it, very consistenly.

Maybe you'll get some Blaster shots. I promise, though, a lot of those models will be dead before they get within 12" of something. You don't get to just start rolling wounds with all your weapons turn 1, and assault at the same time, while the bugs sit there and feel confused. You have to get where you can use them. It'll be very hard for you to do that without losing a lot of your firepower in the process. Every dead Raider is a Dark Lance lost. Every dead Ravager is 3. It's a LOT easier for the big bugs to kill your Skimmers than it is for your skimmers to kill the big bugs.

You're confident about hiding your ships in cover. I don't know about all that. You're gonna hide 7 ships on a standard table? You're aware that a Carnifex can move and shoot all its weapons?



Depends how many can be seen. It's quite possible to kill 6 per turn, but that depends on them being visible.

A Dakkafex will kill both Raiders and Ravagers with very good consistency. One turn of shooting and the Skimmer will almost certainly not be shooting, and will very likely be destroyed.



I don't think you understand that there's actual math behind what I'm telling you. I'm not sure what this quote is based on, but it's not probabilities or knowledge of the Godzilla lists.

A typical Godzilla list might have 6 Carnifexes in 1500 points. 3 Gunfexes with Barbed Strangler and Venom Cannon, and 3 Dakkafexes with two twin-linked Devourers. I don't even know how many points you're talking about.

The Gunfexes have range equal to your Dark Lances, and will win a one on one shootout with a Ravager every time, especially if they're in cover.

The Dakkafexes have 8 shots at S6, twin-linked BS3. As I already covered, 8 shots, 6 hit, 3 glances on a Raider. Two on a Ravager. The Raider is destroyed 70% of the time. The other 30% it might just sit there and get shot again, and it's definitely not shooting next turn, if it even has a weapon left.



No, I'm not. It's simple math. I'm not just pulling 13 out of thin air cause I like the number. There's ways to calculate the average.

One Dark Lance shot at BS4: 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 2/3 defeat a 5+ cover save = .37 wounds. A Gunfex typically has 5 wounds. 5 / .37 = 13.51. So, technically you'd need 14 shots, but I rounded down to 13. As it turns out, I'm not overstating, I was in fact understating.

That's the average. You MIGHT kill the Carnifex in 5 shots. You might also fail to kill it with 50 shots.



You'll probably get into CC with a Fex, sure. You'll probably get into CC with more than one. But your other squads will be shot down. Even if they're not, you have 4 Wych squads, there's 6 Fexes. There's also 20 Stealers and a Flyrant. Somehow your plan involves assaulting 6 Carnifexes, 2 squads of Stealers and a Tyrant, all with 4 squads of Wyches. How do you think that's going to work?

If you're wounding on 2's I'm assuming you're taking Poisoned Blades. To put this in perspective for you once again: Even on the charge, your Succubus will cause .74 wounds on average, not including combat drugs. Only 2 of the 6 results on the drugs chart will improve that. Sure, your Wyches will have excellent staying power against the Carnifex, and will eventually beat it. What happens when they get counter charged by Stealers and Flyrant? What happens when the Tyranid player lets you have the Carnifex, moves back a ways, then blows your Wyches off the table when you're done with combat?

Not to mention, these Dakkafexes, the ones who are 70% likely to destroy your Raiders with a single round of shooting, the only ones you'll get close enough to assault, they're 114 points. You're going to use a Raider and a squad of Wyches to kill one? The minimum cost for that, based on your descriptions to this point, is 203 points. Neat trade.



Absolutely. How are you going to get there? Gunfexes are in the back row, in cover. There's Genestealers and a Flyrant out there just waiting to countercharge you. Get Marines into CC with a Gunfex, wonderful. You'll do a wound or two. Then the Genestealers will hit you, and your entire squad will be gone. 250 points worth of Assault Marines to take two wounds off a Gunfex.

I played a ravager/raider heavy army at the LVGT, and I think that it would have a good chance to beat a godzillla list with it.

The Dark Eldar are just so mobile, that they can fly rings around the Dakkafexes. Dakkafexes have an effective range of 18"+6", so they be out ranged. Godzilla nids are a rather slow army, and a good Dark Eldar player can use it to their advantage. Especially if you have your gunfexes camped in terrain, you can move out of their 36" range, and pound the dakkafexes.

I am not saying that Dark Eldar would win, but it will be a close fight.

Personally I'm agreeing that dark eldar are pretty good against zilla, but not necessarily agreeing with the guy that's promoting this point (I agree with blackmoor though).

There are good reasons why dark eldar will do well against zilla, pity so few players play dark eldar, thus making zilla a good tournament army.

Dark eldar with night shields on everything is basically immune to Nidzilla.

I read over the zilla post about cost and math and everything. I guess you forgot that I run combat squads in my army.  My highest costing unit is my assault squads coming in at 140 points. These units are set for counter charge and to remove threats if needed.

If you dont wall up, my heavy bolter are gonig to burn your gen down. If you hide them behind hills and what not, you are only going to allow me to pick you apart. You only have so much range, and once you change that. You are going to face a new set of my range. Each time you adjust, you will face a new set that my army has to offer.  Hell, I just might meet you in the middle just to see how well this army could hold off 82 to 87 marines.

Core rule is five men, you will only ever get to target, assault five men. After that, you will need to think which way you wish to move because that is all you will be doing. After that, I will return fire with what is needed to remove the new threat, and or assault if needed.

The last game I played had about 80 if not 90 percent terrian. That was one hell of a hard game to play, being that the los was almost nill. Two ranged carnies down to one wound each, and the walking tyrant minus one half body guard.  The flying Tyrant died in one round of hth, I baited it forward with my lascannon unit ( vet unit move up some to close the gap for the lascannon unit. I guess he saw a chance to move up and finish a unit and then assault another.  That flyer wiped the five men with ease, thus allowing him to make a follow up move into my vets. Vet squad and assault squad and power weapon chaplin finished him all the while taking a 32 gaunt charge. I lost two more vets from the guants but hell, they are gaunts. He needed something to try to stop what was going to take place. The  Hive Tyrant  was looking into the EYES OF DEATH.   Had we of went to a fourth turn, that unit of guants would of been dead and I would backed up some. The tyrant walker would of been dead on the hill.

 

Well lets keep talking kk. will see how this goes. Cant wait to face this army.

 

Eldar falcon heavy army died very fast.

 

I read over the zilla post about cost and math and everything. I guess you forgot that I run combat squads in my army.  My highest costing unit is my assault squads coming in at 140 points. These units are set for counter charge and to remove threats if needed.

If you dont wall up, my heavy bolter are gonig to burn your gen down. If you hide them behind hills and what not, you are only going to allow me to pick you apart. You only have so much range, and once you change that. You are going to face a new set of my range. Each time you adjust, you will face a new set that my army has to offer.  Hell, I just might meet you in the middle just to see how well this army could hold off 82 to 87 marines.

Core rule is five men, you will only ever get to target, assault five men. After that, you will need to think which way you wish to move because that is all you will be doing. After that, I will return fire with what is needed to remove the new threat, and or assault if needed.

The last game I played had about 80 if not 90 percent terrian. That was one hell of a hard game to play, being that the los was almost nill. Two ranged carnies down to one wound each, and the walking tyrant minus one half body guard.  The flying Tyrant died in one round of hth, I baited it forward with my lascannon unit ( vet unit move up some to close the gap for the lascannon unit. I guess he saw a chance to move up and finish a unit and then assault another.  That flyer wiped the five men with ease, thus allowing him to make a follow up move into my vets. Vet squad and assault squad and power weapon chaplin finished him all the while taking a 32 gaunt charge. I lost two more vets from the guants but hell, they are gaunts. He needed something to try to stop what was going to take place. The  Hive Tyrant  was looking into the EYES OF DEATH.   Had we of went to a fourth turn, that unit of guants would of been dead and I would backed up some. The tyrant walker would of been dead on the hill.

 

Well lets keep talking kk. will see how this goes. Cant wait to face this army.

 

Eldar falcon heavy army died very fast.

 

Tarval,

I live in Houston, and if you're in town anytime soon I'd be happy to play my zilla nids against your marine horde. I also run a marine horde with 81 models at 1750pts, so I'm well aware of what you could field.

Horde marines are a great army, and one of the toughest, but they are by no means superior to zilla nids. I'd rank them, drop pod marines, 3 falcon eldar, and web way portal dark eldar as the toughest lists. I've left chaos off due to the fact that they are changing and I'm not sure there is enough data to conclude whether or not they can hang with the previously mentioned lists.

I'd be willing to drive up to the north side for a game. Probably won't make it to the DFW area anytime soon, but if you're in town we should get in a game here.

Daydream

Posted By Tarval on 08/23/2007 8:27 PM
I have faced it all but the zilla list. I just dont see it holding any weight with my army.

You really need to play the army to have any idea of how it plays. The Godzilla list is not an assault army, it is a shooting army.

82 marines, 7 ap heavy weapon, 8 ap  assault weapon. 7 power weapons.   Mind you, there is no Min/Max in this list. It is just a horde SM army that has not lost a game yet. 

#1. I wish you were in So Cal. You would not believe how many people I have beat who have said that they have never lost a game.

#2. Since you have a static foot slogging marine horde, what do you do for any mission that required you to move somewhere?

To Blackmoor

1# Day will come....Will be a good one.

#2. Since you have a static foot slogging marine horde, what do you do for any mission that required you to move somewhere?

Walk, Last game I played was getting to the other side. The Edlar player reached over and shock my hand before the game started. I looked at him and asked why, said he would be unable to hold back my army.  We played and I scored 3k plus points on that mission.  The plus is what I killed, 3k was for being on his side.

To Phryxis

Why would anyone with any clue at all give Genestealers for you to shoot H Bolters at? There're few faster ways to give up points.  Answer, About five post back the guy was talking about math and saves and everything else. I was just saying if you wall up, you are not going to be in cover like he was saying he would be. If you dont wall up, you better hide the gen or watched them fry via Heavy Bolter action.  If you dont wall up, your going to be sitting ducks in other ways is all. Not every board is going to have cover save city on it is all. Guy was just using math to show that it would take 14 lascannon shoots to drop one bug via cover save city.  I was just saying if he is going to do that, then what about his little bugs, cant hide that many behind one bug from multi lanes of fire.

Dakkafex 3, Gunfex 3, 2 tyrants. gen.

Godzilla isn't an assault list, it's a shooting list. It has assault units, but they're mostly there to counterassault, and to go after enemy shooting units if there's nothing to counterassault.  Update, I know its a shooting list and mine is to.  I have the same key core rule with my army. You have a five wound monster, I have a five wound squad. I have lots of five wound squads, around 16 of them. You on the other hand dont have 16 monsters. How many five wound monster do you have in 1850. btw, I still have 16 units in 1500 as well.  That is a lot of planking you are going to have to do in order to dimish my list.

I should also point out how misplaced your confidence is regarding being able to give up a squad as a speedbump, then shoot the enemy unit after it wins assault. Update, I moved my lascannon unit up and my vet unit up so that if things worked out. That he would see that I misplaced them, this would give him a chance to clean one unit and assault the other unit. He ran with the bait, and found that my vet unit and assault squad and chapling was more then enough to drop him. There was no speed bump in that action, it was sac to bring to beast to my trap. It died in hth,,,,, My shooting did no fail me either, as you have read my post about two carnies both down to one wound each. The hive tyrant walking was at minus body guard half hiding behind a hill. The other two carnies also moved behind hills. Does this sound like a bug player with 90 percent of the board at level 2 or 3. ....Ever played a game of chess? I have used tactics many many times that way. To set up a multi death loop for the other guy only to castle and then check his king. Thinking three or four moves ahead helps.

You sure you got over 18" away?  Update,  You could call my army a Godzilla SM army. Maybe that would help you understand some of the tactics of this list. Granted I have a ton of marines, its still a five wound unit/model. If you got your d6 and all your move, reassault would net you another five wounds. What are you going to do after that, d6 and hope you reach something(placement keeps this from happening, I would not assault a Godzilla list until I needed to or wanted to). Next would be a nice round of fire for the unit that just finished assault.

Moving units, I move when I need to or want to. My long range has 36" to 48" range.

I don't need to make crap up about how the bugs are doing fifty things per turn to win. Update, Sounds like you just noted your tactic. Simple move shoot move shoot counter assault?

Hell, AC was a really tuff army to beat because of the way my army is set up.  Both time I was able to pull out the win. Once I got into his ranks thou, it was all down hill for the tanks.  Falcon heavy list is just to small of an army to face mine. I have to many units for it to try and tackle. If he is shooting at me, I am shooting back.

I have heard and have thought about this list a few times.  I am just saying this list only has so much to offer. Moving six inches a turn, and some ap and pie plates.  Take away your ap and your stealers, what then do you have.  Monsters that allow me to have a save in shooting. At that point I will be more than happy to swamp him with a horde of marines.

I did mention about my list, in a few post back.

I do enjoy the chat as well. Your list has lost some games, mine on the other hand has not lost.

Thou I do enjoy this because it make me think that if I do find a good general. Then this will be the game that we all live for. That game that one person will find defeat and one will find Victory. That we will both go home happy as hell and wanting to play it again and again because it was the game that we as 40k players live for.

 

This will do for now. I hope I do find a Zilla list player in DFW, Texas area. Then maybe we can get this show on the road. Hell, even then I just might assault all the way...

 

Why are you even trying to argue with this guy.

He obviously isn't interested in listening to the overwhelming amount of empirical and statistical evidence, (both mathematical statistics, and number of tournament wins) or the massive number of first hand accounts of the lists power. Banging your head repeatedly against a brick wall is never advised.

If he still wants to play like its 3rd Edition (and actually think he is going to do well) I say let him. Free massacres at an RTT are always welcome.

Yeah, that was me.



There're two types of Carnifexes here. One is the Gunfex, who sits in cover and blasts stuff at range. The other is the Dakkafex which sets up about 18" away. When people are talking about using MCs as a screen, it's the Dakkafexes they're talking about. One or two can easily screen a squad of Genestealers. You're correct that these Dakkafexes are not likely to be in cover, although they may be if there's some in the middle of the table.

If they're not in cover, it's not not a big deal. They're still going to take a ton of shooting to kill. A 4W Dakkafex, out of cover, still will take 7-8 Lascannon shots to bring down. And there's three of them. And because they're shooting each turn, they're making it easy for the Tyranid player to measure and to know just how far away he is, so he knows when to move them aside and let the Genestealers pop out and charge your lines.

And that's just one way to use Genestealers. They can also go up a flank on their own, or lurk and wait for counter assault, etc. At no point are they going to be wandering around in front of H Bolters.

The fact that you're even mentioning how easy H Bolters kill Genestealers suggests that you're used to playing very poor players. You don't see me bragging on how great a Barbed Strangler is against Marines that bunch up in tight groups, do you? I'm assuming you're not dumb enough to do that when there's 3 Barbed Stranglers on the other side of the table.



Yet AGAIN I would like to see the list. Not just "it's got 80 Marines and it's super awesome." Let's see the actual list. One thing that I'm interested in understanding is how you're fielding 16 units when the force org chart only has 17 slots in it.

Here, this is a list:

HQ - Flyrant - 2x Scything Talons, Winged, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands (+I), Flesh Hooks : 162 pts

Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks : 114 pts
Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks : 114 pts
Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks : 114 pts

Troops - 10x Genestealers - Scything Talons, Extended Carapace, Flesh Hooks : 250 pts
Troops - 10x Genestealers - Scything Talons, Extended Carapace, Flesh Hooks : 250 pts

HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Flesh Hooks : 164 pts
HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Flesh Hooks : 164 pts
HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Flesh Hooks : 164 pts

27 models, 1496 points

That's a list. Please post yours for 1500 points.




No, Godzilla doesn't. It has more like 6-7.

So?

Do your Marines have T6 or 7? Do they retain their full offensive capabilities as they lose wounds? No, they don't.

The big bugs are harder to wound, and they fire at full capacity until they're destroyed. A Dakkafex will outshoot a Marine squad of equal points value every time, even if it has to go get them. It will also be forcing Torrents of Fire saves on the heavy weapons pretty quickly as well, increasing the odds of the Marines losing all their useful firepower.

All that aside, you're talking about your entire army against part of the Godzilla army. 16 squads against 7 MCs. There are still 500 points of Genestealers out there. Or 60 Gaunts. Or whatever. But you're talking about your full list against two thirds of the Godzilla list as if it's suprising you'd have an edge there. Yeah, with 50% more points, I bet you could beat Godzilla. So?



You're missing the point.

First off, if the Genestealers are killing two squads of Marines in assault, they're making up their points right there. Two 5 man squads with upgrades, and they've pretty much paid for themselves. Any more is just bonus.

But that's not all. If you're moving models to avoid getting caught, those models aren't shooting. Can't move and shoot heavy weapons, and only heavy weapons are worth anything against the big bugs. If you're not shooting, but instead running away from combat, how are you winning the shootout with the big bugs? It's not like you were at any sort of advantage in that shootout in the first place. Now you're not even shooting? You're going to lose.



You're not getting it. High AP weapons are wonderful, but so are weapons that wound so much that it doesn't matter what their AP is. A Dakkafex is a great example. Not only does a Dakkafex not care if you're in cover, it also makes full use of the Torrents of Fire rule.



Dude, my list? Your list? What's my list? What's your list?

I'm more a Marine player than I am a Tyranid player. I have multiple Marine armies, and I've played infantry heavy shooty Marines more than any other list. This isn't about me against you. You may have one pet army that you root for, but I don't. I've got so many different armies, I don't have any loyalty to any one of them. I've got shooty Marines, Blood Angels, Orks, Tau, mech Eldar, Necrons, Sisters and now a Godzilla list. And I've got a half dozen other smaller armies I don't even play...

I have no loyalty to the Godzilla list. It's just a list (or perhaps THE list) that's very dominant in the top levels of play right now. Yes, I'm sure it's lost games. Michael Jordan also lost games. The fact that you're basing all your judgements on the last two or three games you've played is not a good indicator of your ability to see the big picture.

Two games, three games, ten games... Means nothing. My Necron army never lost a game. I eventually stopped playing it. It wasn't even that great of a list, and I wasn't even that great of a player. It means nothing in the big picture. It doesn't mean Necrons are the best. It doesn't mean my list is the best. It doesn't mean I'm the best. It just means that for a fairly long while I happened to be playing people that weren't good enough to beat me. So? It means nothing.

What does matter is that some of the most serious players are building the most serious lists, going to tournaments, and not being able to beat Godzilla lists.

I would go with:


HQ - Flyrant - 2x Devourers, Winged, Toxin Sacs (+1 St), Enhances Senses (+1 BS), Warp Field: 196 pts
HQ - Flyrant - Devourers, Venom Cannon, Toxin Sacs (+1 St), Enhances Senses (+1 BS), 149 pts

Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses: 113 pts
Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses: 113 pts
Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses: 113 pts

Troops - 7x Genestealers - Extended Carapace: 140 pts
Troops - 6x Genestealers - Extended Carapace: 120 pts
Troops - 7 Genestealers - 112 pts

HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses: 148 pts
HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses: 148 pts
HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses: 148 pts