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What I was giving Tarval was what I think most epitomizes the Godzilla list. If I had all the Gaunts painted, this is what I'd use:

HQ - Flyrant - 2x Scything Talons, Winged, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands (+I), Flesh Hooks : 162 pts

Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks : 114 pts
Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks : 114 pts
Elite - Dakkafex - 2x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks : 114 pts

Troops - 20x Gaunts - Fleshborer : 120 pts
Troops - 20x Gaunts - Fleshborer : 120 pts
Troops - 20x Gaunts - Fleshborer : 120 pts
Troops - 19x Gaunts - Fleshborer : 114 pts


HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin : 163 pts
HS - Gunfex - Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin : 163 pts
HS - 3x Zoanthrope - Warp Blast, Synapse Creature : 195 pts

88 models, 1499 points

That almost looks like Darrian13's list.

If it was a higher point RTT I would throw in some gaunts and some zoanthropes, but at 1500 I would keep is simple and stick to genestealers so you don't have to worry about synapse.

You can easily get 8 MCs into 1500 points, and still get 22 vanilla stealers.
2 x tyrants, 1 winged, 1 with guard, both devourers
3 x dakkafex
3 x sniperfex
22 vanilla stealers.

34 T6 wounds.

Until Tarval goes and actually plays NidZilla in a competitive tourney environment he's not going to get it. If you look at the threads from 2005 when NidZilla first appeared, everybody said the exact same things as him. Nobody does nowadays.

The highest number of MCs I've lost in a tourney game was 4. That was against lascannon'd up the wazoo imperial guard. I still had 4 left, and he ran out of lascannons That's typical NidZilla. You have to beat them on mobility and objectives. Not even tau or imperial guard can just shoot them down. I've lost enough tourney games, but it hasn't been by them killing all my MCs - all they need to do is roll recon-escalation for that round and they've a damn good shot at it

Posted By quozl on 08/27/2007 2:12 AM
I've lost enough tourney games, but it hasn't been by them killing all my MCs - all they need to do is roll recon-escalation for that round and they've a damn good shot at it

I must say the only time I've faced close to a zilla list was one with 2 gun fex, 2 dakka fex, and a dakka tyrant. It was 1750 though. I won by massacre.

BUT

Here's the big but...

It was gamma recon and I was mech Tau.

The massacre has distorted my view on zilla, but I am one to accept statistics, and even more so, empirical evidence. I agree that zilla is top tier. But it's not tier 1 in my opinion because of recon and escalation. Am I wrong?

I dunno. Recon and escalation is a complete bastard for NidZilla, unlike say for Mech Eldar, or Mech Tau, who can still get across the board in 2 turns if they need to.

Weirdly enough, I won my recon-escalation game yesterday, as I was lucky enough to get marines. There's a lot of marines out there, and I was able to win it just by wiping him out as he tried to get past me

If it was mech eldar, then tbh, it's good game, thanks for playing. So you need that bit of luck in who you play when a nightmare mission like recon-escalation comes up.

So I'd say it's easier for NidZilla to get messed over by the mission level/type than say for mech eldar. Mech Eldar are THE top army far as I'm concerned.

As an aside, a list with 4 MCs really doesn't resemble NidZilla at all. The key strength of NidZilla is 30 odd MC wounds, and making half your opponents weapons useless. 4 MCs doesn't do that. Every weapon you have will have something to shoot at that it can work well on, and most armies have enough heavy weapons to blow away a couple of MCs anyway. So I wouldn't base your idea of NidZilla on a 4MC army - I think NidZilla really is 7 MCs and 3 Zoans (also require the heavy weaponry to take out) or 8 MCs. Those lists basically make bolters, heavy bolters, gauss blasters, etc really ineffective.

Why is mech eldar so rough on nidzilla? It seems like most falcons take the twin shuricannons, which is alot of S6, but you get saves. And that many guns should keep falcs stunned. Flyrants can get to the rear to trap cargo/blow them up in HTH. Gaunts and Stealers would get mauled, but meh....

You can't stun falcons, you can only shake them. They have an equivalent of extra armour - Spirit stones i think it's called. You can never stop their skimmers moving short of an immobilise or destroyed on the glance table. Which is a 1/9 roll on the glance table with holofield falcons! You have to get the glance before you even get that 1/9 shot and they out-range devourers.

Harlequins are I7 and rend. That's anathema to NidZilla. Stealers even get owned by them if quins get the charge - so you HAVE to prevent that. Firedragons in falcons also wipe out a MC in one turn, though that's not that bad as they should just die afterwards. As long as you haven't messed up and spread out too much.

It's also assuming he hasn't also unloaded another unit of firedragons from a 2nd falcon, 2 units of blade-storming dire-avengers from 2 wave serpents,  mind-warred another MC with eldrad, and shot whichever of the skimmers aren't shaken at nearby stealers/MCs. I do not exagerate here, I've had that done to me. 3 MCs dead in a turn, and their stealer support wiped out almost to a man. That was the one time I was dumb enough to split into two 4 MC wedges against highly mech Eldar I'd figured it'd make it harder for his skimmers to out-range my devourers. It just got me amusingly owned

I don't think Mech Eldar is death to on NidZilla or anything though,  I have a very good record against it. If you mess up though, you're dead really fast. Plus you've then got no chance to catch them to try and even things out...

I do think Mech Eldar is the best tourney list because no random chance in mission selection messes them about. They'll do fine in escalation recon. Even escalation take and hold or secure and control can be tough for NidZilla if you get unlucky with reserve rolls. I've had to wait for multiple MCs to auto come on in turn 5 in tourneys before. They won't make it near an objective, that's really frustrating. I've even considered taking a couple of lictors to give escalation re-rolls, but that'd be one less MC, lictors kind of suck, and there's never much area terrain at tourneys for them to deep-strike into.

You hit on 6's in CC and you can only glance. A fully close combat orientated Flyrant will achieve slightly over half a glancing hit. If you know anything about holo-fields you know you need a little more than one glancing hit to down a Falcon.

I've been thinking about that and although it's a complete coinflip against LD10 (even when using Mind War twice in the same turn) Eldrad can't do much else against Nids the turn he disembarks from his Falcon.

That's why I like Eldar so much. There aren't a lot of missions or terrain set-ups that can screw them up. I actually prefer escalation to normal games because it doesn't allow the opponent to take any free shots at Falcons before they move. If terrain is scarce and you're playing a gamma level mission, Eldrad's re-deployment ability really helps. Deploy your Falcons to the middle of your deployment zone, watch your enemy deploy his army accordingly, and re-deploy the Falcons far into one corner. You'll still be able to perform a turn 3 assault with all your Harlequins.

Mind Warring isn't that great when you're testing on leadership 5...

Because every list has 5 unkillable models with Psychic Scream. Come on. Yes, you are right, Mind War isn't great when you're testing on LD5. Look at the lists around you. Most of the Stealer Zilla lists have no Psychic Screams at all because they can't afford the Zoeys. The full choir lists like the one I would play are a whole different ball game. Those lists aren't supported by anything but the minimum 16 Gaunts, and consist entirely of monsters and Zoanthropes. It's just a shame that if you bunch up your monsters to maximise PS a couple units of Harlequins will chew through all of them in short order without ever letting you shoot at them. 12 Harlequins, 6 Fire Dragons and 2 bike Autarchs against 1420 points of miscellaneous Tyranid monsters, and the Eldar will win. If and when the Eldar assault on their terms, you lose 4 MC's including one of the Tyrants in the first wave, and the Eldar just consolidate into more monsters. While the Eldar assault section is doing this, the "always-shaken" Falcons will do anything to prevent your troops getting help, like making a 3 grav-tank wide/long wall (tank shocking if necessary) between your stricken monsters and the rest of your army.

Mind-war range is 18", psychic scream range is 18". How exactly are you going to get all 5 screamers within range of eldrad when he just came out of a falcon that moved! Let's be realistic here.

Plus he rolls 3 dice and picks the two lowest - even if you get his leadership to 8, that's a likely pass with best 2 of 3 dice.

Plus he can mind-war twice.

I brought the psychic choir (7 MCs, 3 Zoans, 24 stealers) to the irish GT two weekends ago, and almost everybody I played was either fearless, or fearless when joined with an IC.. Only the eldar weren't, but they move a lot more than the 6" a turn zoans do. I know it works on LD tests as well as morale ones, but it's not worth bringing for the ultra rare occurance it'll do something. Someone like eldrad it'll have little effect on, marine psychers it can mess with, but marines are easy meat for NidZilla anyway...

I don't think I'll ever be bringing the choir to another tourney, at least an extra warp blast works on everybody (well the low strength one anyway). That's a bit beside the point though, psychic scream is not some kind of miracle cure for Eldrad sadly.

You are right about escalation slowing down godzilla nids.

I am undefeated with my Nids at RTTs. Only once did I play in a mission where my army started in reserve (scouting mission), and that was against a vanilla nid player who ran at me as fast as he could.

But in the local league I played them and I won only about 50% of my games. The reasons why is that they knew what army they were going to be facing ahead of time and they tooled up to fight godzilla nids, and also because I rolled a lot of escalation missions.  Not only recon hurts them, but the fact that your big bugs are trickling on, and the effective range of a dakkafex is only 24" means that a lot of your firepower will be unable to be used for most of the game.

In my experience mech eldar do ok against godzilla nids. They can fly circles around them, and others have pointed out how they can beat them. But but I will say that I have had good luck against falcons and skimmers with my venom cannons. The strength 10 shots almost always glance, and the special rule rule for skimmers always glancing is not that big of a deal, since venom cannons can only glance anyways.

I have been looking through the lists posted recently and have a question.

Where did the ravaners go?
They were one of the most usefull things in the entire zilla list.
Ravaners to hit threats from far away(such as dev squads or tau suits), gaunts to tie things down, zillas to deal with everything else.

Are they no longer needed or is it only because you guys are all discussing 1500 lists?

It's just because they're making 1500pt lists, trying to maximize big bugs with fairly light troops. In larger lists you'll almost always see Raveners. Even in 1500pt lists they're very common.

Godzilla bugs being hurt by escallation depends on how you interpret the table edges in the rules. If you can come in the side, then it isn't really a problem (And is also why big bugs are more common/deadlier) in the midwest where they play this way.

Even if they get to come in on the sides they are still hurt . Getting shot by lascannons while comming on peicemeal can really really hurt.
If they chose to hide behind cover and come out to play turn 5 and 6 they will lose the shooting war in the short run as their major strength is lasting in a slug fest.

Most tournements have them coming in from the long table edge.

Even when you can come on from the sides, a fast army will be able to move away and then you have a long table to work with.

Alot of Tournies use the Adepticon FAQ which has them coming in on the side

Posted By quozl on 08/27/2007 3:19 AM
As an aside, a list with 4 MCs really doesn't resemble NidZilla at all. The key strength of NidZilla is 30 odd MC wounds, and making half your opponents weapons useless. 4 MCs doesn't do that.

I should clarify, it was 22 MC wounds, 10 of those were T7. I killed the two T7 sniper fexes and the tyrant, and the lone unit of genestealers, and that was it.

He killed 30 kroot (which as usual, MVP's, gave my army the space to do stuff), a helios commander that was poking at the MC's all game until 5th turn charge by hormagaunts, and destroyed a devilfish plus the fire warriors.

I had 3 hammerheads in his deployment zone, plus a few suits. Won by plenty for the massacre.

Come to think of it, if there were another 8 MC wounds, they would have been instead of the warriors I imagine, which didn't do anything all game (I didn't even bother shooting at them, I just stayed out of range, he stayed out of range), as well as something else (he has a lictor, as mentioned a unit of genies, and lots of gaunts). If he had that, then I probably would have had a harder time with the suits. Basically, they probably wouldn't have made his deployment zone.

That doesn't sound like a great list at all onlainari., at least if it is it certainly isn't competitive NidZilla.

I'd also be very suspect of the competitiveness of a player who'd spend points making two gunfexs 5 wound, T7 before adding more wounds in the form of more MCs...

So, still good work for crushing it, but don't base your opinions of NidZilla on that.

Well, back at work and have enjoyed reading up on the lastest blogs about this topic. You keep asking about my list and I informed you that is 16 units with just one upgrade at 1500. Thou at 1850 my list becomes death, this is the point total that I play at.

I am going to try and make the Ard Boys and maybe I will get lucky at 2500 point to see a Nidzilla list. Thou I am not going to break from my core rule of five. So it is going to be a good amount of upgrades all around.

I hope you guys are not getting all bent out of shap over your list. I just want you all to know that I am seeking to play this list at 1850 because it is one of the list, I have yet to play. I would not mind putting this list on the wall of list that died to the Green Marines. 

Main thing I am looking out is the amount of fire you can drop at 1500 points. Your range has a lot to do with the amount of fire that you are able to put out. As you creep forward, you will be checking into new lines of fire and new squads that will be firing into your mobs.  Mission is also something that you have to look at, and being a good general will use this to his advantage. Planking one side of your wall down so that other units will be able to move into your back field. Hell, you cant focus your fire at everything all around you and that is something I would work to use againts you. I would also look at baiting out your gen and Hive Tyrant so that I can bring him down.

Old saying about flash lights bringing down units of termies. Enough fire will bring down a big bug because you have a good chance of rolling that one.

I on the other hand have a simple concept, 3plus save.  Most if not all of your army is going to give me a save vs what you plan on spitting out at my marines.  Most of the list show four models able to bring ap to the board. Everything else will be sending out saves in droves.

Placement, focus fire, movement of units, mission objective and sub-objectives.  If we are in range, T7 mobs would be two plus a turn with ease. This would be your AP units first unless you dont have upgraded armour. Then its going to be a major plank feast. I have not played a 1500 point game in a very very long time.  All of the games I have played at have been 1850 plus.  At that point total I am going to be doing a lot of upgrades and adding a leader and a command squad.  I would also be upgrading my dev units to two heavy bolters per units.

Well, lets keep this topic going because I just like to read up on all the things people do. The only thing I see that would cause my list to lose is a heavy foot slogging army ie SM, Blood Angels. 

 

That  shows you don't really understand how NidZilla works. Everything gets a save against it, it's not about AP, and 3+ armour is not an effective defence against it.

It's about making you take so many saves that you fail some. You made the point that even the TMCs will fail saves. The thing is, they're toughness 6, that's what really protects them. So firstly, with most weapons, you need to roll a 6 to wound then a 1 or 2 to fail a save.

Against marine, devourers either need to roll a 2 or a 3 to wound WITH A RE-ROLL.
You then have a 1/3 chance of dying. So a 89% chance of being wounded (assuming wound on 3s , eg the weaker tyrant not the fex), followed by 1/3rd of those wounds being failed.

Massed devourer fire slaughters 3+ saves. It's nothing to do with AP. It also is unaffected by invulnerable saves - they're all invulnerable to AP-, or often by cover as barring 5+ and 6+ armour, you'd be getting as good an armour as cover save against NidZilla anyway.

I on the other hand have a simple concept, 3plus save. Most if not all of your army is going to give me a save vs what you plan on spitting out at my marines. Most of the list show four models able to bring ap to the board. Everything else will be sending out saves in droves.

 

Thinking the last line on this box text said what you said. 

 

Everything else will be sending out saves in droves.  I have faced the pie plate before and it still allowed me to save. Range on the weapon is not that good either. Thus this is something I would look at taking advantage. Next, your dev only has a 18" range as well.

Everything else will be sending out saves in droves.  I have faced the pie plate before and it still allowed me to save.

Range on the weapon is not that good either. Thus this is something I would look at taking advantage. Next, your dev only has a 18" range as well.

Aye, you said that everything else would be sending out saves in droves, but you didn't seem to get it. Cause enough saves and you will fail some. A pie-plate might cause 5 wounds on a tactical squad. a Dakkatyrant averages 10 2/3. That's a big difference. The barbed strangler is not the big marine killer, it's the devourer. The VC/strangler is 36" range, 42" effective as it's assault. I don't get how you can say that's not good range. It's still the devourer that will do most of the marine killing though.

The effective range of devourers is 24", as they're assault weapons. On turn 2, assuming a 12" deployment zone, they will threaten 42" deep. By turn 3 it's the full width of the board is in range. Escalation is a bastard for nidzilla, but in non escalation, devourer range is not a problem. Except against long range, very mobile units such as eldar falcons.

I am trying to understand why you guys keep saying that I do not understand what I am talking about.  I have played the nid race many, many times. What really hurt my army was the fast moving little bugs that tied me up. Blast temp, and ranged dps did little or no damage to my army.

Guy, I do understand what you army has to offer. Now it comes down to the rest of the factors in the game.  We are going to be blasting each other off the board. 

Because you keep saying things that you wouldn't if you understood how Godzilla plays.

A good example of this is how you keep mentioning that you'll get saves... No kidding... And for every three saves you have to make, dead Marine. It's a 3+ save, not a 1+ save. You will fail one in three. You're going to be making a lot.

Again: A single Dakkafex will kill two Marines per turn. Yes, with your saves... And because they do it with volumes of wounds, cover saves don't help.

Let me put that in context a little more for you: A Landraider will also kill 2 Marines per turn, but it costs 250 points. And that's if they're standing in the open. If they're in 5+ cover, it goes down to about 1.58 dead Marines. A 114 point Dakkafex, of which there will be three, is more dangerous to your Marines than a Land Raider.

Let me put it in yet more context for you: A Warwalker with dual Starcannons will kill only 1.67 Marines per turn in the open, and only 1.39 per turn if they're in cover.

And yet more: An Assault Cannon, one of the most dreaded weapons in the game, will kill 1.23 Marines per turn. If they're in 5+ cover, it'll only kill 1. You get what I'm telling you? When your Marines are in cover, a 114 point Dakkafex is as dangerous to them as TWO Assault Cannons.

And it's not like there aren't tables with 4+ cover, even 3+ cover. As the cover gets better, Dakkafex stays just as good.

And you keep reminding everyone that you'll get saves.



And I posted a list with 6 MCs, 3 Zoanthropes and 80 Gaunts. This list is more models than yours, 80 of the fast moving little bugs you suggest are a problem, plus 6 of the big bugs you would be even more scared of if you were paying any attention to the statistics I'm giving you.

One more time, because it's funny to see how many times you ignore me: Please post your list.

Bonus: Please post your list.

@Tarval Do you have a list for this super SM army of yours? Oh, and have you played in the GT's this year with your super Marines?

Darrian

If I can handle four if not five of these MC. What is to stop me from finishing off seven or eight of them. Math is pointless in this game because its not about your save vs my save vs my shoots vs my str vs my wounds. Its how you play the game. I am not trying to wrinkle anybodies feathers, I am just saying that I dont think this list could handle my list. Until I get a chance to face this list, I will have to stand my ground.

16 units at 1500 points with one upgrade. You pick the upgrade, but I do not play at 1500 because its so few points. I enjoy 1850 plus pref because it adds options to the game. I see what you are trying to do is to trap me into your 1500 point game. At that lvl you just might have the edge, but once you step up into 1850 I see it gone with ease.

Mission will never jenks me because I am a pure foot slogging army. You on the other hand will call foul if the mission went the wrong way. I am just saying that I have faced a heavy amount of fire and save and save and saved. If I do happen to drop a few marines a turn, what about you. How much in return are you going to take.

This reminds me of magic the card game. Turn one combo for your army list, if its is unable to bring what it needs to the for front, its dead.

 

It does not matter what I post for an army list, you will try to back your point up with math. That is all you have factored in is math. Math does not win games guys, there are a lot of factors that win games. I am just factoring in everything and you are not.

 

BTW, gaunts are a waste of time. Little bugs refers to a mass of little bugs of all kinds. Sorry I did not point that out awhile back. It is only a problem because I have to work the kill zone to stop the over flow at each teir. Good general will pick the zilla list apart and that is what I am talking about.

 

Last RTT I went to saw the Eldar player dead, Nid player draw only because of the take 45 mins to set up and chat with people around you. Remind you that both carnies down to one wound behind a hill, flyer tyrant dead, most of the army about to die. First time I played against a staller. Next game was vs BT who had one really nice looking army. Thou the game was called on round three after the judge did not explain set up. Thus we had to reset two time and I have a really big army to lay down. Thou it was a draw because it stopped on turn three and I had I would say about 90 percent of my army moving forward to face a dread with out any gear, dead rhino with hq unit that would of been blasted at range. BT champ walking from boards edge. I tied because we had to stop due to the area being needed for the event, and he had the closet model to the center object. Two more crushing victories would of been nice to add to the day. Thou I did enjoy just playing in the event because I had not played in awhile.

Tactic and few years under my belt have showed me how to pick an army apart. Zilla list just has few set in stone core rules about it. 

 

Cant wait to play it thou, and if I do get my butt handed to me, I will be more than happy to post it at 1850.

In other words, 'I'm a troll'

you mean the 16 units on the 15 unit organization chart didn't give it away?