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Are there any pictures around of the new daemon minis or am i jumping the gun a bit here?

Well because of the new CSM codex my deamon and CSM went into hiding,,I can not find them,, but if this codex is good they might come out of hiding.

I'd love to know the reason why you can't ally them with CSMs. I mean, 'Generic Daemons' was insulting enough, but to then release an entire Codex of the things but deny them to CSM players? That's just ludicrous.

BYE

I'm with HBMC on this one. The WFB guys were able to make the Hordes and Beasts armies compatible. And it helped SELL miniatures and allow creative folks to have three armies with two sets of miniatures.

I would think marginally playtested official ally rules would be a no-brainer for Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons. It's pretty ridiculous. I would have assumed that was rule #2 to the Codex (after rule #1, "viable on their own").

You could even use the current mould from the Inquisitor Codices. 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 1 FA and 2 Troops. It wouldn't be heaps of daemons... but it's be something.

I'm sure a lot of Nurgle players out there would be quite happy to get to use their Nurglings in their (in name only) Death Guard armies again.

BYE

Yep. Agreed wholeheartedly. It would continue to mitigate the apparent issue of "demonbomb" while throwing the demon players a bone. The paranoid would then say "why do I need a demon codex?"

Russell wrote:For me the deal breaker will be if it is not tournament legal.

I can see them being idiots and outlawing the ability to ally with CSM. But to make it not tournament legal? Why spend resources on a codex that isn't really a codex? That just doesn't make sense.

They have to make it tournament legal. It doesn't make sense otherwise. It's not an alternate rule system (Apoc). It's an army.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'd love to know the reason why you can't ally them with CSMs. I mean, 'Generic Daemons' was insulting enough, but to then release an entire Codex of the things but deny them to CSM players? That's just ludicrous.

Sigh. Isn't it obvious? It's because allying is incredibly complicated and just too hard to balance properly. You're asking the impossible of the designers. They have to eat and sleep, not just playtest 24 hours a day!

For example, look at the LatD. Now that was a completely broken...oh, wait. LatD had umpteen units of different types and abilities and was actually pretty hard to break. Huh. Good thing the design team got rid of that evidence...

dienekes96 wrote:I'm with HBMC on this one. The WFB guys were able to make the Hordes and Beasts armies compatible. And it helped SELL miniatures and allow creative folks to have three armies with two sets of miniatures.

I would think marginally playtested official ally rules would be a no-brainer for Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons. It's pretty ridiculous. I would have assumed that was rule #2 to the Codex (after rule #1, "viable on their own").

Not only should it be compatible with C: CSM, it should have been compatible with Imperial Guard to create some kind of LatD army.

ubermosher wrote:Not only should it be compatible with C: CSM, it should have been compatible with Imperial Guard to create some kind of LatD army.

Exalt! So simple, yet so unlikely.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'd love to know the reason why you can't ally them with CSMs. I mean, 'Generic Daemons' was insulting enough, but to then release an entire Codex of the things but deny them to CSM players? That's just ludicrous.

BYE

There have been some murmurs from established rumor sources that GW have plans for Legion armies using proper demons (the ones from the upcoming codex).

You may now start about at least four more MEQ armies coming.

I'm agreed that this codex seems to just have brought back the things that they stupidly removed in the first place (fiends, beasts etc).

But not making it compatable with the CSM codex is a joke (what CSM's can only bring forth crap daemons) and I doubt that they willl be dumb enough to make them compatable but not tornie legal. That not only would be insane (it would just cut into their profits for no real reason that I can fathom)

Gorgon - We have written rules heaps, it is difficult but honestly not that hard. The general rules are the clincher, the units fall in place around them and are far easier to point (especially since 90% of the codex existed before!!)

I acn't wait for the models,
I already have near 100 daemons (and that was really by mistake) but having daemonettes that don't break will be amazing!!

Don't forget about Mutants...GW fluff says daemonworlds are supposed be to be teeming with Mutants! I'm sure that fluff is being erased as we speak.

A few of us were talking over dinner at the Baltimore GT, and more we tried to figure out GW's business plan for Chaos, the more it became apparent there is no long-range plan.

Codex: CSM was a self-contained thing, not the start of a series of interlocking codexes, Hordes of Chaos-style. Moreover, it was probably a rush job so they could have a MEq release that quarter. Codex: Daemons is simply leveraging the new WFB models to sell a few more to 40K players. There's no grand plan at work, or they'd be doing a hundred other things that would appeal more to players. GW's inability or reluctance to leverage the popularity of their HH novels is shocking, for one.

The good news is that the wind changes often at GW, and it won't be long before new management or designers ask why they aren't doing all the interesting things they could be doing...

I agree, the daemons should be allied with CSM. If not this is further evidence for the dumbing down of this game and just another nail in the coffin.

Makaleth wrote:Gorgon - We have written rules heaps, it is difficult but honestly not that hard. The general rules are the clincher, the units fall in place around them and are far easier to point (especially since 90% of the codex existed before!!)

I *was* being sarcastic, you know. I don't like bashing the designers, but it's been twenty years since RT was released. How can 40K still be such a mess?

ubermosher wrote:Not only should it be compatible with C: CSM, it should have been compatible with Imperial Guard to create some kind of LatD army.

That would be a nice concession. Not fantastic, but definately a step in the right direction. Good idea.

BYE

This sounds fine to me. I think I already have enough daemon models from my WHFB army to make a decent 40K army. I just don't like Chaos Space Marines, so I never bothered.

The inability to ally Demons with CSM has nothing to do with "dumbing the game down".

Dumbing the game down is retarding the mechanics. It has nothing to do with whether or not you can get rending or power weapon assault specialists with easy delivery methods in your CSM army.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:The inability to ally Demons with CSM has nothing to do with "dumbing the game down".

Dumbing the game down is retarding the mechanics. It has nothing to do with whether or not you can get rending or power weapon assault specialists with easy delivery methods in your CSM army.

I disagree. The inability to ally has everything to do with dumbing down the game. Keeping it as simple as possible so as Jervis said, his own son wouldn't have a problem with it. Many of the stated reasons for not having annuals anymore is GW doesn't want gamers having to bring more than one book (or at least one codex and the rule book). Allies requires multiple books. If you make things simpler, I consider it dumbing down. You are right in as much as it has nothing to do with getting rending or power weapon assault specialists. I'm looking at it more from an Inquisitor + Loyalist ally combination. Besides that, all daemons don't have rending and don't have power weapons. I have 10 Flesh Hounds of Khorne and all they had last codex was a Collar of Khorne and fast movement. They would be nice to take just as they were in my Khorne army with no rending and no power weapons.

dienekes96 wrote: The WFB guys were able to make the Hordes and Beasts armies compatible.

But this is 40k. 40k is just not as good a game as WFB. Better fluff but weaker rules. =(

ender502

Voodoo_Chile wrote:As it is does the CSM codex actually stop you from using Nurglings as Lesser Daemons?(And thus probably save some money on individual model cost)

Nothing to stop you from doing that, at all... except for an uptight opponent.
You'd be hurting yourself by using the larger base, but it would look better to use those as summoned daemons with, say, a Nurgle army than it would to use "generic" daemons.

heck. I use Daemonettes, Bloodletters & flamers to represent MY generic daemons...
Well... I did until I realized that they weren't worth a sh** (IMO).

black legionnaire wrote:Are there any pictures around of the new daemon minis or am i jumping the gun a bit here?

There's a thread here somewhere with pics of the new 'Letters, Daemonettes & Juggernaught.


Eric

If one could use these daemons as allies, why would anyone ever use the ones from the Codex: CSM? Especially after all the complaints here about how naff the ones in CSM are?

Yeah, I'd like to ally my IG heavy support with my Space Marines, but that isn't done for game balance, not some conspiracy to "dumb everything down". GW didn't say you had to replace all your existing daemon models in order to use the new 'generic' ones, even in their tournies.

I swear if GW said you could ally these rumored daemons with IG for LatD or CSM some people would be screaming about how you have to buy more GW products to make a single army.

I've donned my asbestos suit so go ahead.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Yeah, I'd like to ally my IG heavy support with my Space Marines, but that isn't done for game balance, not some conspiracy to "dumb everything down". GW didn't say you had to replace all your existing daemon models in order to use the new 'generic' ones, even in their tournies.

It's like GW took all the IG tanks and made them into "Heavy Tanks" and "Light Tanks," not the fact that they made the demons less powerful. And then they made a Armored Fist codex that had all the old tanks choices in it, but which couldn't be used with normal IG.

Smite on them.

Is there anything preventing you from allying Spikey Marines with Daemons? I mean, they have both the same FOC-style. So in an "apocalypse"-like game, which many guys seem to like, there shouldn't be a big deal about it. If you don't bring the cheesiest combination possible but just add some fluffy daemons to your death guard for example, I wouldn't stop you, especially because I know what everything can and cannot do.

Greets
Schepp himself

p.s. yeah, the codex sounds lame. Daemons have to be combined with mutants and possessed marines to make'em cool for me.

Not as such, but then there's nothing stopping me from designing my own codex, which happens to feature Tau and Marines working together. Apocalypse-style gaming does not give GW a free pass when it comes to dumbing down the rules and eliminating army choice.

Not everyone has as awesome a gaming group as I where that stuff would be allowed. And for a long time all I had was a gaming store to pay at. I would not try to convince a random opponent that my homebrew codex is balanced.

Not as such, but then there's nothing stopping me from designing my own codex, which happens to feature Tau and Marines working together. Apocalypse-style gaming does not give GW a free pass when it comes to dumbing down the rules and eliminating army choice.

Not everyone has as awesome a gaming group as I where that stuff would be allowed. And for a long time all I had was a gaming store to pay at. I would not try to convince a random opponent that my homebrew codex is balanced.

Point taken, it wasn't my intention to defend the GW policy. I just wanted to give suggestions about how you could use the codecies together anyways.

I feel that using two somewhat similar(at least fluffwise) codecies together isn't that big of a deal.

And I would be far more skeptical if some dude comes in with a complete homebrew codex and not just two official ones (thinking a bit space marines/guard).

Greets
Schepp himself

The Power Cosmic wrote:Apocalypse-style gaming does not give GW a free pass when it comes to dumbing down the rules and eliminating army choice.

I have to agree here. I'm getting sick of the catch-cries 'Just use it in Apoc' or 'just use counts-as' as though they're some sort of justification for GW's inability to write rules.

BYE

MagickalMemories wrote:

Voodoo_Chile wrote:As it is does the CSM codex actually stop you from using Nurglings as Lesser Daemons?(And thus probably save some money on individual model cost)

Nothing to stop you from doing that, at all... except for an uptight opponent.
You'd be hurting yourself by using the larger base, but it would look better to use those as summoned daemons with, say, a Nurgle army than it would to use "generic" daemons.

I think the idea is to use the small bases, but with 1 Nurgling per base. For extra comedic effect, also include a bunch of big intimidating Bloodletters (same generic stats!), and let your badass little Nurgling ankle-biters show those candyass Bloodletters how it's done! A Bloodletter on Juggernaught is no match for TWO(!) rabid Nurglings! Maybe even mix the two types in the same unit - toss a single Nurgling into a unit of Bloodletters (he's the leader!). To really drive the point home get a Nurgling (isn't there one that's flipping the bird?) and mount him on the Disc from the Tzeentch sorcerer box. Nice rules Gav!

Dal'yth Dude wrote:I swear if GW said you could ally these rumored daemons with IG for LatD or CSM some people would be screaming about how you have to buy more GW products to make a single army.

Actually, no - I don't think a single person would scream about that. Unless they had some kind of screaming disorder that made them scream all the time about everything.

The Power Cosmic wrote:I would not try to convince a random opponent that any codex is balanced.

FYT

Seriously,I have no problem buying another Codex if I could run more then generic daemons in my army. I don't want a lot of options but ffs a Bloodthirster with quite obviously huge wings being unable to fly. And the Oracle of Change is a bird for feck sake.

Even if it wasn't full ally rules(Ie a Codexaemon HQ to be your Codex:CSM HG choice) but rather a supplement for the generic Summoned Greater Daemons and Summoned Lesser Daemons slots saying that the rules for the following Daemons can be used instead of the above. Or ya get what I mean anyway. So while we wouldn't have access to Heralds and the like we could use the Bloodthirster,Great Unclean one etc rules with their options in place of the Generic ones.

If of course they are doing away with it completly then I suppose if they do a combine Codex:Inquisition then it'll have to be no more Grey Knights and their ilk for the SM & other Imperial forces. Loses alot of flavor imho