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Space_hoppo wrote:But taking poor people to be feed to the emporor? does the queen eat human brains for lunch?

I don't know the queen's lunch,but I guess the energy of psykers is not the emperors Lunch.
Psi-energy is used to uphold the astronomican and to seal the (Mankind made) webway portal at terra.
Even malcador,a psyker of great power,made only a short time this job and was totally exhausted and died.

I hate black and white classification. I don't think any of the forces can be pegged as good or evil except for the Dark Eldar who are definately evil incarnate.

How is this? Let's go through it...

Imperium: Good- They're the main 'good guys' of the 40k Universe, fighting to protect most of the galaxy from, well, the rest of the galaxy. Bad- The Inquisition is crazy off the charts, killing hundreds of thousands of people and going Salem Witch Trials on everyone's behinds. Exterminatus anyone? They still kill off thousands of xenos every day just because half crazy priests and a single man, the Emperor, say so.

Chaos: Good- As stated before they may symbolize more divine things, just a little warped in appearance from the Eye of Terror. They fight simply to survive and keep their heads above the rest, just like the Imperium. Bad- Also stated, they can be seen as monsters, feeding on the life of the Universe. Striking out at planets from their little void, and worshipping gods who stand for everything less than pristine.

Tau fights for the greater good, but they still want to conquer the universe.

Eldar fight to survive, but they seem to see the Imperium as a foolish lie and are less than happy with it.

Necrons... well... actually they're pretty much selfish bad guys too.

Tyranids are a little harder to explain, they are mindless, if that's an excuse, and are bred to destroy for that is all they have ever known, they must feed like all of us, and they must ensure their races thriving

Orks are pretty bad, but they're a lot like the Imperium, day fight for waz dere's!


So there.

I must agree with Ebullient and as he said there is no black or white answer here. But we must know that Chaos are far from good, but they are far from pure evil too. So in a way Chaos are good, but they are also bad. They feed off humans, do not forget everything in the Universe is only as flawed as we make it out to be, other wise its fine.

Someone said that Khaine was the good side of Khorne. Good gods don't murder someone because they're popular. (Eldanesh)
The way I see it, it's the Imperium that's truly evil. The Emperor is just a hollow psychic shell with no sentience any more, and the High Lords of Terra are the true rulers of the Imperium.
Khorne embodies honour, courage, and defending the weak.
Nurgle embodies the cycle of life, death, and rebirth.
Slaanesh embodies passion and love.
Tzeench embodies evolution, hope, and wisdom.

Unfortunately that’s not how the books portray the Ruinous Powers. I’m citing the Demon codex predominantly. The ruinous powers are expressed predominantly as having bad intent. Nurgle is the easiest example. While in some twisted way Nurgle may be about the please for immortality or surviving a plague, Nurgle’s fluff is all about making said plagues. Indeed this is a counterpoint to the Eldar goddess deal-whispering secret antidotes to the mortal world.

1. Why would ruinous powers constantly seek to destroy humanity? They have other fish to fry if they get bored with each other.

2. The fluff on the positive aspects are so insignificant as to be invisible. Where is man’s better nature, even at a basic level? All the prayers for healing do not logically go to the guy who is creating the illnesses.

If you’re going to reflect the Ruinous Powers as representing everything, then they need to actually represent everything, not just we’re icky killy and after your babies for our sacrifices. That doesn’t work.

40K has always been or has been retconned into the warp entities being basically bad guys, comic styled misrepresentations of ‘the bad parts” of the underworld.

@Cheese Elemental. I said that about Khorne and Khaine. The Chaos Gods do help the people who serve them in one way. Khorne helps by getting rid of the weak so the strong survive and pass on there genes to a stronger generation. Nurgle is about rebirth as where ever there is death there is also decay, while people who follow nurgle are never hurt or in pain. Tzeentch is about peoples hope, people who follow Tzeench get to know the truth about things. And as for Slaanesh he's about the pleasure that can be found in the world.
All of this doesn't mean that they are all goody two shoes, but they arn't extremely pure evil as everyone says.

Can the Chaos gods think for themselves? being made of emotions surely they are driven purely by tham, not their own thinking?

They do think for themselves, i think so. I mean Tzeench plays us like a chess board.

Chaos is intrinsically evil. They represent human emotion, but they represent it at it's total absolute control.

Emotions are not evil, they are a byproduct of our conscience. But where good and evil separate are our own choices and our actions.

Chaos gods represent the worst of our emotional states, and to surrender to them is to surrender to the worst that humanity has to offer.

Khorne is rage incarnate, his followers are constantly seeking to kill and maim for a realease of that emotion but it never comes.

Slaneesh is perversion and lust, his followers seek to be satisfied by pleasure but it never comes.

Nurgle is decay, his followers wish to spread illness and sickness, forever cursed to be sickly.

Tzeentch is manipulation and lies, his followers seek forbidden knowledge that will damn them upon discover.

Chaos represents enslavement, enslavement to the baser nature of our selves.

There is a point where enjoyment becomes dependence.

Well said Mahu, and all excellent points.

I'd just like to point out that Khaine was created by the Eldar, and was a good guy. Then, when he defeated The Nightbringer, the C'tan shattered, er something like that, and corrupted Khaine, driving him into the evil killing machine that The Nightbringer is. That's if I have my reading right.

Yeah, Khaines dark side is Khorne, the both do the same job, just in different ways.

Nono, Slaanesh captured Khaine and Khorne wanted him freed, and the former and the latter fought each other and in the mess of it all Khaine was shattered. A shard of his body was given to every craftworld so that the Eldar could summon the avatar.
I do feel that Chaos is really misportrayed. GW insists on everything being seen in black and white, not shades of grey.

OTT but has Khaine kicked anyone's posterior motive? Slaanesh and Khorne took him down. I believe he lost a fight with nightbringer. Was he always a cheese eating girly eldar?

No. he did have some sucsesses, look at the Eldars version of the war in the heavens. When he nearly (or at least tried to) destroy the Eldar race, paranoid about soemone who would kill him or soemthing.

Besides, back in the day of himvs Nightbringer nothing ahd killed the Nightbringer before, and it took lots of effort to. it was only doing that which made him lose it a bit.

besides, with Khorne vs Slaanesh can you really expect a god whose race is all but dead to be that strong? Not really. So he isn't a chees eating girly eldar. Chees gives him nightmares

Yeah he saw that he would lose to a mortal so he went around killing all the mortals he could find i.e. eldar. he killed the Nightbringer and he became a slightly darker person.
And he was too strong to be beaten by Slaanesh but too weak to kill him, so instead of battling for all eternity he decided to split himself into avatars to help the poo eldar race.

did you mean to leave the 'r' off poor? either way the sentence still makes sense but with a whole different meaning.

And he didn't kill the nightbringer...just broke him for a while...

nope, but it was late and night and i was too tired to check. He felt sorry for the Eldar so he split his soul up.

so khaine shared himself with every eldargroup ? Now hes angry all the time (burns from within), his eldar didn't get
the way he wanted them to act. They call him forth every single "oh we just screwed it" time to rescue their little

Pretty much, but he's a god of war, it keeps him occupied i guess.

What else would they use him for if not that? A tea maid? its the only way for him too be of any use to the Eldar so i don't see him complaining about it. Even if in most books and DoW his avatar dies all the time...

Storm Lord wrote:What else would they use him for if not that? A tea maid? its the only way for him too be of any use to the Eldar so i don't see him complaining about it. Even if in most books and DoW his avatar dies all the time...

Have the eldar endless numbers of their Avatar? They must sacrifice a warrior to activate him,but all i know this Avatar sits somewhere inactiv until hes needed.

The avatar sits in the core of the Craftworld and someone is killed to summon it. So if you beat the Avatar (use a fire engine in place of a tank). and lock the Avatar core in a box, he cannot be re-made, but the Eldar will haunt you until its returned to his home.

Space_hoppo wrote:The avatar sits in the core of the Craftworld and someone is killed to summon it. So if you beat the Avatar (use a fire engine in place of a tank). and lock the Avatar core in a box, he cannot be re-made, but the Eldar will haunt you until its returned to his home.

If my tac-marines bolted him down (in DoW) he never returns....

Mneh works for me, personally i send in termies to hammer its brains in, chaplins work surprisingly well against it

Let's not forget that awesome sync kill Librarians and Sorcerers can do on him. The Bloodthirster killing him looks awesome too.

Khaine fought Slaanesh, the newly-awakened Chaos god of pleasure and passion sometime after Slaanesh's awakening in the 29th millennium (Imperial Calendar). Khaine being a god of war could not be defeated in battle. But Slaanesh was still much stronger than the Eldar god thus creating a stalemate where neither could win. Khorne the Blood God, patron of war and murder wanted to absorb Khaine for his on purposes and made an offer to Khaine. During the struggle, Khaine realized he couldn't escape from either being and so divided his spiritual essence into the hearts of the craftworlds, the dread Avatars of Khaine are the mere splinters of the ancient war god that can be called upon by a sacrifice of an Exarch who is chosen to be the Young King who are then absorbed by the essence, thus becoming the Avatar of Khaine wielding the might of the War God himself.

That's from the Lexicanum.

Khaine is not chaos,means that there can other "Gods" exist and it is not necessary to lead
followers to their doom. We should divide between Chaos and lifeforms from warpspace.
To me chaos is the 4 ruinous powers and their minor deities plus any attached demon.

Chaos is what comes from control

Space_hoppo wrote:Chaos is what comes from control

chaos exists on the absence of self-control.

a small mind is easy to fill

Correction, a small mind is easy to fill with doubt.

Space_hoppo wrote:Correction, a small mind is easy to fill with doubt.

But doubt can be replaced with faith.