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A small mind cannot be easily filled or it'll forget how to listen and be able to take nothing more in. As for faith, isn't that normally what they doubt? Does that make it a safe alternative therefore?

Faith without doubt is only stupidity. A small mind has to choose between knowledge and ignorance.
If going ignorant, youre easy prey for cultists.

As if you choose Knowledge, thats the reason many Inqisitors go rouge, to much knowledge on the enemy and they realise they're better off on the Chaos side. In other words: "Your damned if you do, and damned if you don't"

Who choose chaos has only partial knowledge.

Fully realized what chaos is gets nobody to follow. Why should someone praise a bunch of emotions as god?

Never were any dreams fulfilled by chaos, it produces false hopes to lure you to your own destruction.

And what of the Traitor Primarchs, the Daemon ones got what they wnated, power and lots of it, not having to fight for an Emporer they thought didn't care. So some people do get dreams fuffilled. Even if everyone doesn't

Storm Lord wrote:And what of the Traitor Primarchs, the Daemon ones got what they wanted, power and lots of it, not having to fight for an Emporer they thought didn't care. So some people do get dreams fuffilled. Even if everyone doesn't

They dreamt of beeing an ugly demon,sitting at a crazy demon world ?

If stayed loyal and conquering the galaxy they have fared better.

No, they wanted power, and they got that in abundance, they don't use it in the Material realm though. To own your own planet and rule it is a dream many people have at some time in their lives-they had it fuffilled.

And would they have benefitted by staying Loyal? Once the Galaxy was humanities then what would they have done? Its hard to imagine them getting a normal job

Storm Lord wrote:No, they wanted power, and they got that in abundance, they don't use it in the Material realm though. To own your own planet and rule it is a dream many people have at some time in their lives-they had it fuffilled.

And got bored with,so they return to the material plane for action and fun.

And would they have benefitted by staying Loyal? Once the Galaxy was humanities then what would they have done? Its hard to imagine them getting a normal job

Surely had they benefitted.
As a part of the emperors geneseed,the primarchs and their legions were most powerful when combined.
The only chance to win this galaxy has been thrown away and there are more other galaxys in a
universe to claim. For personal glory,some primarchs ruined the crusade,mankinds future and their legions.


Really a great achievement.

Typeline wrote:

Storm Lord wrote:So why bother with the Transfer to Chaos domination, if as you've just helped point out are as evil as the Imperium, nothing changes, therefore chaos is evil.

Because it wouldn't be the same. Imagining that the Chaos Gods want to be in power to just slaughter everyone is ridiculous. They would have temples and expect worship just like the emperor but they wouldn't want full and utter devotion like he does. They aren't as 'evil' as the Imperium. Their rule would be a lot better, if not as organized, as the Imperium's.

...Somebody is getting mindscrubbed...

And the notion that Chaos just wants to destroy everything is hardly ridiculous. They're are representations of wanton and reckless emotion, irrationality writ cosmic. Self-destruction is hardly something so uncommon to the emotionally unstable. I actually really like that aspect of the fluff.

1hadhq wrote:
And got bored with,so they return to the material plane for action and fun.

As far as I can remember only Angron has left the warp since becoming a Daemon Prince, the others have all stayed put. So That doesn't quite work in some respects

Storm Lord wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
And got bored with,so they return to the material plane for action and fun.

As far as I can remember only Angron has left the warp since becoming a Daemon Prince, the others have all stayed put. So That doesn't quite work in some respects

You can count them down:

1. Perturabo - never so moving around,sat in fortresses and breeds on plans. Now he does the same on medrengard.

2. Fulgrim - no more own will,he's downgraded to a puppet.His master as a demon is probably happy in the warp.

3. Mortarion - any action since HH anywhere noticed? Can be everything,active or dead,
who knows?

4. Kurze - is dead for sure.

5. Lorgar - sits in his scriptorium and is lost to work at new books.You wouldn't get him moving from his work.

6. Alpharius and Omegon - one may be dead but theAL never went to the warp,their
primarch could have stayed hided between his marines.

7. Magnus - why should this warp-scholar leave the warp? The only try of him was stalled
by ragnar blackmane from the SW.

8.Angron - as mentioned has attacked armageddon but was driven back even with his
mightiest demons accompanying him by the GK.

9.Horus - gave the emperor no choice as to kill him.


Result: 2 not moving, 2 dead, 2 tried but got beaten, 1 is as demon not interested,1 never entered warp , makes only 1 unknown.
IMHO 2 may try again and what the last one is to do ? :S

The warp is not boring? To much change is more than

It can't be that boring, or the Chaos Gods would have gone insane (or more so) by now, as would everyone who's in it. Such a multitude of interesting people too meet and planets to see

the chaos "gods" are already insane!

Nothing they do is sane. To sit on skulls or play miraculix,go full holiday or fumble with others fate is not
a interesting hobby, not a bit entertaining. They would not mess with others lifes if they had enough fun in warpspace.

Then too all the Warp occupants the Chaos Gods are completely sane then. And sure they would mess with others anyway. I know I would. Hell, I already do to an extent, just not from Warp space. (For obvious reasons)

Warpspace needs order and a big sanitarium then most.

The old ones should have been more careful before letting the warp on the Loose.

Now, unruled Chaos runs wild at conquest for Power.
:S

The only good side of the Warp is his travelling use.
But Chaos? Good?

The chaos gods are base emotions in their rawest forms. They are not restrained in any way and only seek to make all being submit to their whims.

So in the sense that a man should not fully submit to any base instinct whole heartedly, yeah...they're evil. Evil in the way any obsession with one...passion (I suppose)... will probably lead to evil.

Okay, so the Night Lord primarch, IIRC, was obsessed with (vigilante) justice, the obsession turned something that could be good into something horribly twisted. But it's not because of the interpretation by Curze, it was the pure unadulturated drive for 'justice' wasn't tempered by anything.

Change isn't that bad, but when it's the sole obession of a god or being, it's evil.

Passion tempered by prudence, okay. But when in it's purest form, it only leads to f'd up desires of the most extreme kind.

So yeah. evil.

That isn't to say the Emperor isn't evil...it just isn't focused enough to be as bad as the chaos gods.

1hadhq wrote:
The old ones should have been more careful before letting the warp on the Loose.

Now, unruled Chaos runs wild at conquest for Power.
:S

The Old ones aren't to blame, the orks and Eldar are, it's their fault the warp became what it is today. the old ones maintained it and kept it clean. Only the pains of the 'younger races' of the time way back when, that caused the Chaos Gods and enslaver plauges that killed the Old ones and so stopped the warp being kept safe.

Cheese Elemental wrote:This was brought up on the Tau Online forums, and it set me thinking. Are the Chaos Gods really evil, or is this a misconception based on their followers? As they are created by cumulating emotions, maybe this could change them? Maybe Khorne was/is a god of honour and martial prowess rather than a maniac who wants to kill anyone. Maybe Slaanesh is a god of love and passion rather than decadence and depravity. I see this as being a strong probability of what the gods really are.

Go on, flame away.

The chaos god are a manifestation of emotions but are twisted by the warp and by emotions of pure hate or manipulation.

Storm Lord wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The old ones should have been more careful before letting the warp on the Loose.

Now, unruled Chaos runs wild at conquest for Power.
:S

The Old ones aren't to blame, the orks and Eldar are, it's their fault the warp became what it is today. the old ones maintained it and kept it clean. Only the pains of the 'younger races' of the time way back when, that caused the Chaos Gods and enslaver plauges that killed the Old ones and so stopped the warp being kept safe.

The eldar (obsessed by interest ) and krork (obsessed with battlelust) may be guilty of
polluting the Warp . But the old ones coached these races. When a trainee acts, those in
charge should watch careful.So the old ones screwed their work with too complex plans.

Typeline wrote:

Storm Lord wrote:So why bother with the Transfer to Chaos domination, if as you've just helped point out are as evil as the Imperium, nothing changes, therefore chaos is evil.

Because it wouldn't be the same. Imagining that the Chaos Gods want to be in power to just slaughter everyone is ridiculous. They would have temples and expect worship just like the emperor but they wouldn't want full and utter devotion like he does. They aren't as 'evil' as the Imperium. Their rule would be a lot better, if not as organized, as the Imperium's.

When the emperor was "alive" so to speak he did not demand everyone think of him as a god or worship him. He saw the Great Crusade as a way of uniting all humans in the galaxy, what he did NOT want was to replace the human leaders who opposed him (that he viewed as tyrants) with another figurehead. Basically, he did not want to replace one tyrant with another. This is why the Space Marines do not think of the emperor as a god, but a great warrior and leader of men (as far as I have read).

I agree though that things are much more shades of grey than true black or white. The Imperium has become quite decadent with the absence of the emperor and has resorted to extreme measures to keep the relative balance of things (such as the Inquisition). Basically I think the Imperium is quite misguided and being abused by the higher ups pulling the strings.

As for Chaos...I can't find any reason as to why they are good. Each Chaos god represents a single emotion that, while not necessarily "evil", is taken to the most extreme measures. They may border more on neutral/evil...but good...IMO I just can't see anyway of justifying they are good. The CSM might see it that way (40K is all perception, just like real life). The CSM may think they are fighting for the right thing but their view is warped, they are trying to justify evil actions.

All that said, I don't think the Imperium is "good" either...or any 40K race for that matter. It is all perspective.

Dendarien wrote:

Typeline wrote:

Storm Lord wrote:So why bother with the Transfer to Chaos domination, if as you've just helped point out are as evil as the Imperium, nothing changes, therefore chaos is evil.

Because it wouldn't be the same. Imagining that the Chaos Gods want to be in power to just slaughter everyone is ridiculous. They would have temples and expect worship just like the emperor but they wouldn't want full and utter devotion like he does. They aren't as 'evil' as the Imperium. Their rule would be a lot better, if not as organized, as the Imperium's.

When the emperor was "alive" so to speak he did not demand everyone think of him as a god or worship him. He saw the Great Crusade as a way of uniting all humans in the galaxy, what he did NOT want was to replace the human leaders who opposed him (that he viewed as tyrants) with another figurehead. Basically, he did not want to replace one tyrant with another. This is why the Space Marines do not think of the emperor as a god, but a great warrior and leader of men (as far as I have read).

I agree though that things are much more shades of grey than true black or white. The Imperium has become quite decadent with the absence of the emperor and has resorted to extreme measures to keep the relative balance of things (such as the Inquisition). Basically I think the Imperium is quite misguided and being abused by the higher ups pulling the strings.

As for Chaos...I can't find any reason as to why they are good. Each Chaos god represents a single emotion that, while not necessarily "evil", is taken to the most extreme measures. They may border more on neutral/evil...but good...IMO I just can't see anyway of justifying they are good. The CSM might see it that way (40K is all perception, just like real life). The CSM may think they are fighting for the right thing but their view is warped, they are trying to justify evil actions.

All that said, I don't think the Imperium is "good" either...or any 40K race for that matter. It is all perspective.

But can we really classify something as evil at all if we cannot find a viable example of good? If we are grading the 40k universe on a curve it seems to me that they all get between a C+ and C-. Unless of course you believe in the so called "Greater Good" (go Tau!!!) which once again is subject to prospective.

And how the do we get this deep into phylosophy when it comes too a game??? I mean come on here?!?!?!

1hadhq wrote:

Storm Lord wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The old ones should have been more careful before letting the warp on the Loose.

Now, unruled Chaos runs wild at conquest for Power.
:S

The Old ones aren't to blame, the orks and Eldar are, it's their fault the warp became what it is today. the old ones maintained it and kept it clean. Only the pains of the 'younger races' of the time way back when, that caused the Chaos Gods and enslaver plauges that killed the Old ones and so stopped the warp being kept safe.

The eldar (obsessed by interest ) and krork (obsessed with battlelust) may be guilty of
polluting the Warp . But the old ones coached these races. When a trainee acts, those in
charge should watch careful.So the old ones screwed their work with too complex plans.

Can i just point out here its somewhat hard to keep an eye on people when you're been slaughtered left right and center by necrons and Ctan! The Chaos Gods themselves were made after the bulk of the Old ones race was dead and what few were left had no power to do things about the crisis in the warp! Give the old guys a break!

They need a break,but instead got broken.

Its all the C'tans fault!



IMHO some surviving old one has his fingers in the rise of Tau.
In this cabal thing before heresy for sure one of them was involved.

Aeddon wrote:

Dendarien wrote:

Typeline wrote:

Storm Lord wrote:So why bother with the Transfer to Chaos domination, if as you've just helped point out are as evil as the Imperium, nothing changes, therefore chaos is evil.

Because it wouldn't be the same. Imagining that the Chaos Gods want to be in power to just slaughter everyone is ridiculous. They would have temples and expect worship just like the emperor but they wouldn't want full and utter devotion like he does. They aren't as 'evil' as the Imperium. Their rule would be a lot better, if not as organized, as the Imperium's.

When the emperor was "alive" so to speak he did not demand everyone think of him as a god or worship him. He saw the Great Crusade as a way of uniting all humans in the galaxy, what he did NOT want was to replace the human leaders who opposed him (that he viewed as tyrants) with another figurehead. Basically, he did not want to replace one tyrant with another. This is why the Space Marines do not think of the emperor as a god, but a great warrior and leader of men (as far as I have read).

I agree though that things are much more shades of grey than true black or white. The Imperium has become quite decadent with the absence of the emperor and has resorted to extreme measures to keep the relative balance of things (such as the Inquisition). Basically I think the Imperium is quite misguided and being abused by the higher ups pulling the strings.

As for Chaos...I can't find any reason as to why they are good. Each Chaos god represents a single emotion that, while not necessarily "evil", is taken to the most extreme measures. They may border more on neutral/evil...but good...IMO I just can't see anyway of justifying they are good. The CSM might see it that way (40K is all perception, just like real life). The CSM may think they are fighting for the right thing but their view is warped, they are trying to justify evil actions.

All that said, I don't think the Imperium is "good" either...or any 40K race for that matter. It is all perspective.

But can we really classify something as evil at all if we cannot find a viable example of good? If we are grading the 40k universe on a curve it seems to me that they all get between a C+ and C-. Unless of course you believe in the so called "Greater Good" (go Tau!!!) which once again is subject to prospective.

And how the do we get this deep into phylosophy when it comes too a game??? I mean come on here?!?!?!

Good point. What do we define as good in the 40K universe? That is all subjective to us. What races I think are good may not be which ones you think are good. But, I think we can agree some are worse than others (CSM, Necrons).

yeh, necrons are always evil, no doubt. And it is a fact that some degenerate Old Ones are still alive, just weaker and worse off than the older Old ones who ruled the universe

Hmm... the Blood God... a good guy?

The clue is in the title he's chosen for himself

Aeddon wrote:
But can we really classify something as evil at all if we cannot find a viable example of good?

Reminds of that old 40K quote:
"Only the insane have the strength to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane."

Aeddon wrote:
And how the do we get this deep into phylosophy when it comes too a game??? I mean come oncc here?!?!?!

For a game to tackle these kind of concepts, helps explain why it's been around for so long.

There is no good side in 40k, just the occasional good person.

Chaos does nasty things, screwing over many on a whim. The Imperium is in many ways Nazi Germany times a really big number (exterminatus, anybody). The Tau have been known to use concentration camps, and at the end of DoW Dark Crusade, sterilize all the humans to get rid of them. The Eldar only value them selves, and then there's Biel Tan, Necrons and Dark Eldar should be pretty obvious.

There is no "good" side. Some sides do more good things than others (eldar vs necrons) but still...

What of the Old ones in their time, whilst not an army list, they could be the good guys of the 40k time frame, creating and guiding new races, not exterminating/steralising them, and even fought against pre chaos warp nasties and the Ctan and their servants. Hardly evil/not good is it?

Storm Lord wrote:What of the Old ones in their time, whilst not an army list, they could be the good guys of the 40k time frame, creating and guiding new races, not exterminating/steralising them, and even fought against pre chaos warp nasties and the Ctan and their servants. Hardly evil/not good is it?

Oh isn't it ?

Old ones are creators and chaos is change,not creation.

So chaos is not good but the warp is neutral.