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In all afirness to the Chaos Gods whilst they do have 'nice sides' Nurgle apparently has a wicked sense of humour, from reading the Daemons Codex it feels more like they are evil, just by how it's written and the background it gives. I would find examples but am a bit busy so will do so when I have a bit more time

Surely the real question is:

Is the Imperium even on the good side of neutral?

Depend who you ask. To Human kind yes it is, seeing as it is them and its armies are preventing human deaths from Xeno races. To Tau maybe, if it was willing to negotiate with them.

To Chaos, dark Eldar, Necrons, Nid's and Orks it makes no difference really, the Imperiums their, for a good fight, slaves food etc

To Eldar its more tricky to work out humanities standings. Whilst Humanity exists Chaos grows stronger so the Eldar aren't so happy. But Humanity does fight Chaos alot, and should humanity die out supposidly Chaos would too (Horus Heresy 'Legion') so arguably is good.

But for the whole Good/bad argument the Imperium is meant to be the good guys, notably why it is the Focus of most of GW's attention, and the focal point for the game and fluff

WingWong wrote:Surely the real question is:

Is the Imperium even on the good side of neutral?

the Imperium is the good side

For product and game its always the race of the customer thats good. If you buy at terra, its humans,if
you buy extraterrestrial its the aliens running the store.

For fluff it depends on your definition of good. When lazy, a lot of races fit. When strict maybe none is good.



Humanity as race is at the good side ,except of chaos worshippers.
The imperium as organization is to big and varied to count as whole good/evil.

admit to stormlord in his point on outer/inner view.

So the Orks see humans as good?

Cheese Elemental wrote:So the Orks see humans as good?

For sure! They love humans!

Were opponent No 1 not 2 No 1

I don't think the Orks care! As long as they can Hit living beings they couldn't care less about good or evil. they probably don't even have words for it!

Orks have three words: waagh ,gork,mork.

Searched in their dex, doesn't find more.

When the ork emotions created gork and mork in the warp,the ork gods may be chaos beeings?
The whole conquer the galaxy thing is a order from their gods.

Are ork-gods good or evil?

neither, fun loving maniacs who are green and just like a good fight.

I guess a good question to ask would be do the chaos gods have a sentient being or are they truly just mirrors of the emotion in the real world?

edit: just remebered ghost in the shell stand alone complex, with enough data you can create a sentient being without an original. however is the data constantly flowing in? if the imperium changed would the chaos gods too; and the imperium was destroyed (along with the eldar) would the orks/tau make their own chaos god then?

mold for the mold god!
for the greater evil?!

The rumours from 'legion' is that if Humanity was wiped out the chaos gods would fall also. Although until the Eldar fall I don't see Slaanesh going anywhere either.

The problem with Tau is that they barely register in the warp, meaning it is probably harder for them to feed Chaos with emotions. Orks on the other hand do have 2 warp entities made from them, Gork and Mork-and don't feed the 4 major Chaos powers.

Really though to answer the first question you just posed is: we don't really know. Reading the daemon codex I get the imperession they are both. And with the amount of absurd things in the codex I struggle to find an answer to it. So I would say don't think about it. Less the Inquisition come knocking at your door...

who are gork and mork anyway?

wash-away wrote:who are gork and mork anyway?

Two green guys,the orks need them as raw models for their gargants.They have not the insight of the mechanicum so they're
unable to do impressive great looking titans.

Tau motto (illusion to deceive others): For the greater goood
Real motto: for the greater evil
Combined to confuse all: for the greater god (evil god )

1hadhq wrote:

wash-away wrote:who are gork and mork anyway?

Two green guys,the orks need them as raw models for their gargants.They have not the insight of the mechanicum so they're
unable to do impressive great looking titans.

Tau motto (illusion to deceive others): For the greater goood
Real motto: for the greater evil
Combined to confuse all: for the greater god (evil god )

tis more confuzed.

so their ork titans? I thought they where warp entities.

Gork & Mork are the Ork gods. Garagnts are Orky Titans built in the images of their gods.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:Gork & Mork are the Ork gods. Garagnts are Orky Titans built in the images of their gods.

cool,

okay so what this topic was about. chaos are they good or bad?

I think that chaos are bad, their not just imperial because of the eldar. if the imperium where to fade you'd still have eldar that would follow chaos (that one striking scorpion exarch that follows khorn) I think that you'd see eldar turn to chaos as their culture grows. I think that they would get along with the tau, and orks fight eachother and everything else so yeah.

if eldar and the imperium where destroyed then what? do tau have a big enough imprint to effect the warp and create their own god? what are tau?

But taking poor people to be feed to the emporor? does the queen eat human brains for lunch?

You never know about these things!

hmm, old ones make eldar and orks (at that time called krorks), eldar and orks create warp gods. olds ones go nearly extinct. tau mysteriously evolve rapidly with nearly no warp presence. me thinks the old ones had one last shot at a perfect race

Tau the perfect race?

=> Perfect stats: 2/3/3/3/1/2/1/7/4+
non-perfect stats: 4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8/3+

Obvious that Tau are perfect

The way I see chaos, as through the eyes of a philosopher whose name I can't remember nor am inclined to find his name:

Chaos is neither good nor evil; it is the perversion of a purportedly good (or non-aligned) thing.

War might be good (or at least necessary), but taking it to the extreme of beserkers is not.

Passion may be good in some cases, but when you get your kicks from sacrificing innocents it's not.

Disease may strengthen a population by weeding out the weak ones, but a virulent strain can wipe out a planet.

Etc. Etc.

Twelve credits of philosophy has taught me that "good" and "evil" only work in the world of moral absolutes - where black is black and white is white, and a bus full of child is not going to cause a black action to go grey. The devil's in the details; the moment you start to introduce a dilemma to to situation (bus full of school children, for example), your claims to absolute good and absolute go out the window.

Pray tell me, in what philosophy is killing and eating babies not black EVIL concept?

jfrazell wrote:Pray tell me, in what philosophy is killing and eating babies not black EVIL concept?

Damien children, perhaps. Let's say you know that the kid draws from distinguished line of psychopaths and through divination you can determine that he will end worlds.

Or eating children who have already passed on to allow yourself to live while on a desert island.

Or perhaps Tau children. End hunger and the threat of the greater good at the same time! [/joke]

"Twelve credits of philosophy has taught me that "good" and "evil" only work in the world of moral absolutes - where black is black and white is white, and a bus full of child is not going to cause a black action to go grey. The devil's in the details; the moment you start to introduce a dilemma to to situation (bus full of school children, for example), your claims to absolute good and absolute go out the window.

I do wonder, how much more black and white exists than what we've got in 40k? People who are evil live in a big purple hole in the universe, wear funny hats covered in bones and slime, have pointy teeth and, to remove whatever shred of doubt that might remain, run around screaming their hatred of peace and tranquility.

"Good" Chaos? It's an oxymoron. Chaos by its very nature "not good" because it's born of emotion juxtaposed to the selfless generative behavior that creates "goodness": rage, decadent vanity, harmful decay and rot, and unchecked mutation.

Naturally, the most obvious argument against absolute morality is that in the Imperium, the "good" guys are generally amoral people... grim, corrupt, violent, etc. etc. etc. etc. And why are they allowed to prosper? Because generally everybody is working very hard to maintain stability when funny hat-wearing freaky psychotics jump out of their purple space hole to butcher and maim everybody, or convert law abiding citizens to do it for them. It's so hard to battle this enemy that, as long as you're not working *against* the goals of the Imperium, status quo is tolerated. Does this make the Imperium less good? Yeah, it does. But it does not make Chaos "less bad". Even if you try to make the argument that Chaos is cleaning out the corruption of the Imperium, that still doesn't make Chaos somehow "good", it's simply two evils conflicting.

Chaos is evil because it is the perverted antithesis of anything that would be associated with goodness. It's a void in which no goodness can exist.

but chaos itself is just chaos
the gods can think but if you think about it they have no free willthey are emotion which is not inherently good or evil
the gods are emotion so must always act on the emotion that they represent the do not choose to be evil they just exist

The argument that "nothing is inherently good or evil" is a complete cop-out. The chaos gods are manifestations of destructive emotions that actively seek to increase the amount of pain, suffering, death, and misery encountered by others. This is more or less every culture's conception of "evil". The "gods are emotion so must always act on the emotion that they represent; they do not choose to be evil they just exist" as inherently evil entities. Personal choice is unnecessary when talking about absolute morality, that's the whole point of absolute morality. Things are good, or they are evil, and they just "are".

bryantsbears wrote:

jfrazell wrote:Pray tell me, in what philosophy is killing and eating babies not black EVIL concept?

Damien children, perhaps. Let's say you know that the kid draws from distinguished line of psychopaths and through divination you can determine that he will end worlds.

Or eating children who have already passed on to allow yourself to live while on a desert island.

Or perhaps Tau children. End hunger and the threat of the greater good at the same time! [/joke]

Good luck with that. Even Tau children have guns.

And I think that there is no goodness in the 41st Millenium. Besides "The Greater Good" of course.

The Imperium? Bunch of Nazi's ruled by a dead "Emperor".
Eldar? Well, I just plain don't like them, so they can't be good.
Dark Eldar? Speak for themselves, really.
Tyranids? Mindless killing machines.
Necrons? See above.
Tau? Probably the only race that comes close to "good", as they are really just trying to expand their empire right now.
Chaos? The same as the Imperium, pretty much.
Space Marines? Same as the Imperium, killing in the name of a dead guy.

There is no good in the far future. There are only militant factions and militaristic empires bent on destroying every other race/faction/empire. And that's why we love it!

Seamus O'Shank wrote:

Good luck with that. Even Tau children have guns.

And I think that there is no goodness in the 41st Millenium. Besides "The Greater Good" of course.

greater good? maximum evil this is!

The Imperium? Bunch of Nazi's ruled by a dead "Emperor".

Sorry,not dead and not nazi.

Tau? Probably the only race that comes close to "good", as they are really just trying to expand their empire right now.

To expand an empire is good? Tau are good? Little faithful bluegray,you are.

Space Marines? Same as the Imperium, killing in the name of a dead guy.

Sorry, as above,your wrong.

There is no good in the far future. There are only militant factions and militaristic empires bent on destroying every other race/faction/empire. And that's why we love it!

Yes, we do

No race is ultimately evil. just distrustful of those other races that pose a threat to them. They each have slightly different reasons to wage war, be it to avoid extinction or 'bring others to the greater good' (blatent lie there) if you were in the same situations any of they were then I would guess you would do the same things so you didn't have to be under xeno slave labour (Imperial view) or listen to 'false ideals' (Tau view) or face extinction (All eldars wiew)

Your Crazier than i am
Good chaos, look up chaos in a dictionary
noob

SonsOfLoki wrote:Your Crazier than i am
Good chaos, look up chaos in a dictionary
noob

I am not a "Complaining selfish marine" ( CSM ), so I know that chaos cannot be good.
Its always the evil side in any game-universe.