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Reaver83 wrote:I think they'd have big problems (looking at the way they've done their recent codecies) with doing the other legions. I don't imagine they'd do +1 Heavy/Fast attack, and I don't think they'll say choose guardsmen or demons from the respective books either.

Well for starters the new SM techmarine with his +1 cover save fortify ability would make a good warsmith and Lysander's rules would make for a great Iron Warriors special character. It would be nice if Night Lords could field raptors that were at least as good as vanguard vets. And if they put cultists in the list then Alpha Legion and Word Bearers could, like, take them and stuff.

Ozymandias wrote:
Cause you can make most of those armies with the existing Chaos Codex?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Huh?

Shh, he's powerful.

it will all work out in the end... unfortunately the chaos codex was rewritten when GW was rolling out the nerf bat. G

Green Blow Fly wrote:it will all work out in the end... unfortunately the chaos codex was rewritten when GW was rolling out the nerf bat. G

So this is the friendly version of the 'suck it up Chaos players' argument is it Bloater?

And it won't 'all work out' in the end. As soon as the pendulum reaches one side, the GW dev's just push it back the other way. Their goal isn't to get the pendulum to stop in the middle, it's to make it swing as much as they can.

BYE

No No No This thread is being too nice to GW about what they did. They gutted the old chaos codex and removed the legions. By the way folks, there were 18 original legions, 9 of which followed Horus. Those 9 chaos legions were indeed represented in the old codex. In this new one they are nowhere to be found. This new codex really only represents space marine chapters gone bad, NOT the original 9 traitor legions.

Until GW rectifies this situation and releases rules for Black Legion, Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers and Emperors Children, i will be a Chaos player who is angry and disgruntled.

The imperial space marine players get all the variety in the world, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and the soon to be new Space Marine Codex. The new Space Marine Codex makes me sick! It is what they should have done to the Chaos Codex.

Its like GW released the Chaos Codex and then realized they seriously messed up so have been making up for it with every codex afterwards. Well that doesn't help me out one bit, nor any other chaos player who has been playing 40k since at least 2003. Blah, i'm done.

WarsmithMorgoth wrote:No No No This thread is being too nice to GW about what they did. They gutted the old chaos codex and removed the legions. By the way folks, there were 18 original legions, 9 of which followed Horus. Those 9 chaos legions were indeed represented in the old codex. In this new one they are nowhere to be found. This new codex really only represents space marine chapters gone bad, NOT the original 9 traitor legions.

Until GW rectifies this situation and releases rules for Black Legion, Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers and Emperors Children, i will be a Chaos player who is angry and disgruntled.

The imperial space marine players get all the variety in the world, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and the soon to be new Space Marine Codex. The new Space Marine Codex makes me sick! It is what they should have done to the Chaos Codex.

Its like GW released the Chaos Codex and then realized they seriously messed up so have been making up for it with every codex afterwards. Well that doesn't help me out one bit, nor any other chaos player who has been playing 40k since at least 2003. Blah, i'm done.

Bring on the Chaos 4.5 codex! Now with cultists and mutants! (in plastic!)

Wouldn't that be nice... no, no... it wouldn't. I have enough mutants I don't need any more! Stop making good suggestions Noisey_Marine.

As to the post above yours, I hate the need for special characters and the way that you can only play with the rules for Salamanders or White Scars if you take their special character first, but if it was the difference between having Legions and not having Legions, I'd take the need for special characters over the crap we've got now.

I would feel sorry for all the Emperor's Children players though, having to being Lucius the Eternally Useless to every damned battle.

BYE

now theres something i can agree to, from the last 3 people, space marines do have alot of models, y cant chaos, wats so wrong with em, all they did was go bad, neally kill the emporer adnt make themselves look sweet as, but i guess thats wat GW hates about them, they look so kool.

BDA

BloodDeathAssault wrote:now theres something i can agree to, from the last 3 people, space marines do have alot of models, y cant chaos, wats so wrong with em, all they did was go bad, neally kill the emporer adnt make themselves look sweet as, but i guess thats wat GW hates about them, they look so kool.

BDA

Whats so wrong with them? To be a traitor is not wrong?

The 18 legions are removed from wh 42k. The loyalists get codex smurf/ codex smurf and ..codex smurf.

because da smurfs are da best, every RG/WS/IH/IF and sallie gets "counts as" so you can smurf also the SC of non-smurfs.
additionally the DA/BA/BT don't get the same wargear as the smurfs,because the smurfs are da best.
So the 9 legions have 3-5 codices with different rules for the same wargear.

Now your kool chaos buddies have only 1 dex for renegades.
But thats not hate by GW,thats a result of removing legions and replacing them with warbands.
For a bunch of warbands you only get 1 codex.
If you want 18 legions it has to be wh 30k or 32k not 40k.
When GW divided the 9 loyalists into chapters this got them 1000 of them.
So up to 5 codices for 1000 chapters with 1.000.000 marines.
Since it is to be taken from HH fluff that the legions had possibly not more than 250.000 marines for all legions,
the traitors may be at 100k-150k at start of heresy.Substract the "istvaan accident" and the losses and you have
not more than 50.000 CSM left. Now relate 1.000.000 to 50.000 => (1m:5=200k/ 50k:1= 50k) => result is
200k loyalists per codex vs 50k traitors per codex.
now you call for 2-9 codices? no more than 10k marines per codex? :S

Sorry,fluffwise I would accept 9 CSM-codices.
For the game there might be a chance to separate CSM into cult/undivided/renegade and have 3 codices.

Why GW doesn't have lists for all the Traitor Legions (with new models were appropriate... Cultists?) is beyond me.

Really, just some "if you take a commander from X, you get to do Y" would be all it takes.

Same for the Lost and the Damned.

A few new kits, and upgrade sprues, and a whole lot of happy customers. And the bottom line likes it too!

ill tell you one small thing thats wrong with chaos (1hadhq) , unable to deep strike a dreadnought...ok i played a game with one of me mates the other day, he got first turn, place in mind hes an elder player, he finished moving, and then decided to fire a bright lance straight into the front armour of my dreadnought, and the battle we were playing, didnt consist of much terain, but as he did he made it explode, that might just say something about wat GW needs to correct, utherwise a dreadnought is like a big sign saying shoot here, strenth 12 armour, max 13. Get the picture.

BDA

BloodDeathAssault wrote:unable to deep strike a dreadnought. that might just say something about wat GW needs to correct, utherwise a dreadnought is like a big sign saying shoot here, strenth 12 armour, max 13. Get the picture.

BDA

Isn't a chaos dreadnaught "bound in chains" when its not at the battlefield?
I think a insane dread cannot be placed into a droppod without the danger of a "accident " to the droppod while in
transit from attackcruiser/battlebarge to surface and screwin the transport and the passenger.

Can you take a droppod?

The last 3 CSM-dex had no droppod in. :S

If GW gives you the droppod (and maybe a 2d6 scatter without units to prevent that) your dread stands after DS in
the same way as big "bullseye" in the open.

Sadly most dreads get shot too easily

Chaos Dreads can be mounted in a Dreadclaw Assault pod which is a drop pod but it is only available from forgeworld and the rules are not tourney legal. Also in the forgeworld Apocalypse book there are rules for it.

I built 5 from scratch because my gaming group plays big games alot and also in the friendly games they let me take them.

The problem is is that they cost 65 points and dont have any sort of weaponry, but can also take off from the battlefield.

1hadhq wrote:Since it is to be taken from HH fluff that the legions had possibly not more than 250.000 marines for all legions,
the traitors may be at 100k-150k at start of heresy.Substract the "istvaan accident" and the losses and you have
not more than 50.000 CSM left.

Hmm... Interesting argument from fluff.

If we have 18 Legions, each anywhere from 4,000 to 25,000 strong, then we might assume an average of 10,000+ marines per Legion. That gives a total of perhaps 180,000 marines. So I'd agree with a total of 250,000 SM for all Legions at the start of the Heresy, with a nominal 125,000 SM for each side.

At the Istvaan Massacres, the loyalist Legions were tabled, so they probably lost 25,000 SM whereas the traitor Legions probably only lost 10,000. So post-Istvaan, it's probably 115,000 traitors vs 100,000 loyalists.

The Seige of Earth thinned both sides considerably, with the traitors losing more. Probably, both sides less than 40,000 each.

So that would be 40 starting Chapters of 1000 SM each and 9 remaining Legions of less than 5,000 CSM each.


But "today", we have close to the full 1,000 Chapters for 1,000,000 SM total. And CSM probably aren't too far behind - Fabius Bile can create CSM from scratch, and SM turn traitor all the time.

But when we look at the original Legions, and subtract for 10,000 years of losses & daemonic whathot, there might only be 25,000 original Legion CSM still functioning.

With originals being 2.5% of the total CSM force. They're probably forming the Command and Veterans, but that's about all they would have numbers for.


So rules to Fluff means that it is correct for C: CSM to focus on newer traitor forces making up the overwhelming bulk of the CSM. Focusing on the original 9 Legions, the numbers don't support such an approach.

OTOH, focusing on the 4 Ruinous Powers *does* make sense. Each power probably holds sway over 10-25% of the CSM, so yeah, there could be 250,000 Khorne Berzerkers total. But Rubric Marines might be a problem, as there probably were less than 10,000 TSons (assuming some replenishment) when the Rubric was cast, and fewer yet again due to losses.

I agree for some of the chaos marine forces that the veterans and leaders of them would from original legions from 10000 years ago. The original legions would still exist but the magority of their fighting forces would be made up of either new marines using captured geneseed or original geneseed from their original primarch(Whos to say that traitor forces dont have apothecaries even if the rules say they dont) or from newly turned loyalist marines. Another part of a Chaos Legion's forces could be traitor guard and other rebel scum. Hence making Chaos Marine armies that are allied with Imperial guard for apocalypse games make sense fluff-wise.

If you've ever read Storm of Iron or the Dead Sky Black Sun novel by Graham Mcneill, it shows in great detail how a particular chaos legion (The Iron Warriors) are organized. And in fact they have traitor marines who have become Iron Warriors as well as other monsters and slaves and such. The Dead Sky novel also shows that there are many Iron Warrior Grand companies led by various Champions who fight amongst themselves all the time.

So with the above taken into consideration, It is plausible that the original legions, while not wholly consisting of original chaos marines who are 10,000+ years old, do indeed exist still and operate as the original legions did which then qualifies them as being labeled for example; Iron Warriors.

Just my observations and what my army is based on.

I have 11,000+ points of Iron Warriors and will soon have a traitor guard army painted in the IW scheme to accompany them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:it will all work out in the end... unfortunately the chaos codex was rewritten when GW was rolling out the nerf bat. G

So this is the friendly version of the 'suck it up Chaos players' argument is it Bloater?

And it won't 'all work out' in the end. As soon as the pendulum reaches one side, the GW dev's just push it back the other way. Their goal isn't to get the pendulum to stop in the middle, it's to make it swing as much as they can.

BYE

Okay let's get one thing straight. Pissing on a big fire will not put it out. GW has said they will release a codex for the legions and I have no reason not to believe them. Walking around angry all the time is not the answer. G

Just curious, what color is the sky in Trolle country?

"OTOH, focusing on the 4 Ruinous Powers *does* make sense. Each power probably holds sway over 10-25% of the CSM, so yeah, there could be 250,000 Khorne Berzerkers total. But Rubric Marines might be a problem, as there probably were less than 10,000 TSons (assuming some replenishment) when the Rubric was cast, and fewer yet again due to losses. "

Well as I see it if you were going to run rubric marines I would go the way of the novel "Wolfs Honour" as in they are the extreme elite. They have cultists and daemons and a few high sorcerers to feth with everyone. But they would be the ultimate elite. Seeing as they are as old as the other original marines but don't have any of the failings of flesh. Cut of a head and the body rips you apart...

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So? I can make DA, BA, BT, and SW armies with the existing SM Codex. In fact I can make a better DA army with the SM codex than a TS army with the Chaos one.

I agree on the DA example and frankly have said so several times. It would mean less time between Dark Angel codex updates and more toys for me. Unfortunately that die was set waaaay back in 2nd Ed with the Loyal SM getting 3 codices and Chaos getting one.

I disagree that you can't make a good TS army with the Chaos dex. I know several TS players who are thrilled with the new dex as their army doesn't suck anymore.

And BTW, I plan on using the Dark Angels codex for Death/Raven/Double Wing armies and the SM dex for more normal Marine centric forces.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Alpharius wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:
Cause you can make most of those armies with the existing Chaos Codex?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Huh?

Jester wrote:Shh, he's powerful.

Damn straight!

Ozymandias, KING OF KINGS!

Are you typing that in every time, or do have some sort of hotkey set up?

Ozymandias wrote:
I know several TS players who are thrilled with the new dex as their army doesn't suck anymore.

You seriously know people who think the new TS is better than the old TS? Or am I reading this wrong.

IMO, the new TS are*worse* than the old TS.

The old TS had W2. Ultimately, an army with 2 wounds has a lot going for it.

The new TS have ammo that simply gets opponents to use the plethora of Sv4++ cover saves availble, along with a permanent cover save that they would get anyways.

IOW, totally useless.

Finaly someone is agreeing that the new codex sux for something, and wat is with taking away the W2, i spose though those two wounds are gunna go somewhere in the SM army lists now.

BDA

Ozymandias wrote:I disagree that you can't make a good TS army with the Chaos dex. I know several TS players who are thrilled with the new dex as their army doesn't suck anymore.

In fact, their army doesn't exist anymore!

I'm just going to throw in my two cents here. I haven't honestly played CSM in 5th yet, but I will agree that the new dex is crap. And yes it is crap that loyalist marines do get a way better shake from GW, lets not get that mixed up. the new CSM dex however is centered around renegade marines, so in all fairness they should release a Cult CSM dex. Other than that, they need to give marines a friggin break, I mean seriously, what about DE, Guard and necrons, they need new books so they can be viable in 5th. just food for thought, thats all.

BloodDeathAssault wrote:what is with taking away the W2, i suppose though those two wounds are gunna go somewhere in the SM army lists now.

BDA

:S Its not "transferring the CSM rules to SM".
The options in Codex spase mariens are taken from fluff.
The options in Codex complainy spase mariens are reduced because the ruinous powers were not happy with the efforts of their
spase mariens

C: SM has nothing to do with Csm.Maybe rename it from: C:CSM to C: Renegade(tries to be chaos)SM

The old TS had 2 W's and the ability to take hidden fists with tons of attacks. Now you get a gakky ws4 s4 force weapon.

Im not much of one to complain but sure SM can look really kool, like all other races, but one thing that i hate is when a person that collects SM brags about all the kool stuff they get, now one thing that made me laugh was when i saw an Ultramarine player at a gaming centre braging about how good SM are how how they can beet anything, now the odd braging is kool with me, i do it sometimes ut what mad me laugh is he bragged so much that another player (IG) decided to give him a little battle and test out this so called army of his, bare in mind the armies were 2000 points, so he accepted, they battled it out and, well the SM player got creamed. So try not to boste to much.

BDA