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I can only assume someone at FW got fed up of their stuff always being called overpriced and worthless crap (135-point Medusas, for example), threw a childish hissy fit and built the Reaver off that. The other possible explanation, that this is the reasoned opinion of a person drawing a salary as a "games designer", is almost too depressing to believe. Pathetic, thoroughly pathetic.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Let's stop and discuss this for a second.

Now, Aga, I don't know you from Adam, so why is it that you 'hate' agreeing with me? What exactly have I ever done to you?

Let's not.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
No, no. Honest question. I didn't pay much attention to the first release of the rules, so I wasn't sure what the problem was.

Well it isnt often used. I am actually suprised you dont have any titans with the volume of Imperial vehicles you have.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I didn't know the Reaver could get a Volcano Cannon.

Mithrax wrote:Actually, as a minor quibble, the Forgeworld Reaver Experimental rules have the volcano as a 7" blast.

Yes you can take a Volcano Cannon. However they did promise to only let a Reaver take a downgraded version, and yes it is 'only' 7" blast. The nice thing about that gun is the awesome range of 180" and the fact that it is Strength D without a game breaking powerful ROF.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Generally speaking, twice the toughness of a Warhound isn't that impressive as the Warhound isn't that impressive to begin with. Super-Heavies are generally overcosted and people fear them more than they should (like people fear the Hellhound). The Baneblade is a good example, a 650 point tank that's worth 450.

Well for a start a Warhound is misused. People think scout titan, or just titan and try to use it agressively. This is a relative term, back in 30K when you could afford gear as big as a Warhound for scouting it was scouting for a titan battlegroup, and with help from another of its own kind. Titans are rarer now and are used differently. This aspect is handled well in the 40K rules. A Warhound is now a precious precious heavy assault unit but with more firepower than survivability, an ambush predator. Now if you try to tank with it in an apocalypse game it will get lascannoned to death. It really needs to lurk in a city or broken hills and annihilate sections of the enemy army in isolation.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Now I have no experience using Titans except for Eldar Revenants, so maybe there are other factors I am not aware of, such as their size or movement abilities (and I haven't really considered the Void Shields). I know that the Revenants are overpowered because of their 4+ save,....

Now Revenants are ... Edit.

Void shields are armour 12, though I do think the armour value should be modified by what is carrying the shield, so Reavers and Warlords with Av13 shields, but enough of wants and wishes. 12 is not high enough to be absorbing similar firepower as you use on the hull. So you can hose down a titan with autocannon before firing lascannon. However if the opponent only takes lascannon to max out firepower they can lose out here.
However something to bring to your attention, four shields is more than twice as good as two, the graph of void shields to effectiveness is not linear. Shields return easily, especially as you roll them on structure points remaining rather than once per downed shield. A Reaver or Warlord is very likely to recover most or all of its shields each turn. So allowing for misses and fails to glance you need to invest a lot of firepower against a void shielded target before you hacve a chance of doing anything. For a Warhound the threshold is not much, six Bs3 autocannon will on average dice clear two shields. But these will likely come back, especially if you fail to take down them all in the previous turn. For a Reaver it gets a lot better. You need twelve autocannon to drop the shields (eighteen for a Warlord), each and every turn you want to take shots at the titan itself. Now when the titan manoeuvers beside buildings or hills and denies a target opportuinity to the whole army the odds start to mount on its side. Now add in the clover template and what it doesnt to heavy weapon teams and Dev squads and you have a serious problem. Now a Warlord is so expensive and so hard to hide (most people buold them way too big) it is too far the other way. Need to fire six fire support squads to clear the shields, short change compared to the 2500pts beast. Reavers are generally a little smaller and a lot cheaper, especially now. Attrition is on their side.

Ultimately the tactics I use for my Imperial battleships works for Imperial titans, if you work out the firepower investment an opponent must use to deal with your void shields and manoeuver, or target selectively to make this increasingly inconvenient the apparently small number of Av12 shields can go a long long way. Frankly its a drain on the opponents firepower statistics and thus if handled well, a drain on the effficiency of their entire army. Never underestimate void shields.

Power fields are a different matter, they are just extra wounds, you hit them they go down. It's a whole different scenario. Orks ignore their shields, like them while they last, but press on the with assault while the going is good. Imperial players must be more cerebral to make best use of their shields.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
but the part that's 'broken' with them is not the fault of the Titan, but more the fault of the concept of Strength D weapons. Unfortunately, they've set the ceiling for Strength D too low. Volcano Cannons should be Strength D, but not Pulsars or Turbo-Laser Destructors.

I agree 90% with you, more if you infer anything negative about the quality of GW designers as a byproduct of this complaint. But it's not the ceiling that is too low, the blast is too high. Turbo lasers deserves Strength D, but they should have two shots not two pie plates. Same with pulsars, though pulsars can fire in area effect mode as a very large scatter laser and deserve their 5" blast that should be at far lower strength, maybe as low as S6 or 7. A volcano cannon alone deseves a reusable Strength D blast and that should be no larger than 5" and really ought to only be small blast (but rolling twice on damage). No Jervis, lasers are not area effect weapons. The vortex missile as a one shot should remain as it is.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
If we ignore the triple-barelled thing for a moment, and say it had a Gatling Launcher, Apoc Missile Launcher and Volcano Cannon, would it be such a big deal?

A Reaver is always a big deal, unless you give it two titan ccw's and a carapace inferno cannon. That is to say cannot target anything smaller than a gargantuan creatures with its arms - and can't catch any of those its finds and has a mega flamer with a minimum range longer than its maximum range. Here you can really go to town criticising Forgeworld for blind copy/pasting rules.

You need to house rule the strength D stuff, I would count the turbo laser or laser blaster as shots not blasts. Another way of playing this, more in keeping with the rules is to say that turbo laser or laser blaster shots all hit the same place. They are after all linked lasers. As not much takes Strength D this cuts back on the de facto killing power of the weapon, so if the initial shot misses, it all misses. Apart from that the weaponry is fair. With the loadout you have you will get eleven pie plates that will waste MEq on 2+, the volcano cannon can put the evil eye on any superheavy vehicle on the opposite side of the table, and anything else that is unfortunate enough to be nearby. Remembering your set up picture posted elsewhere of IG vehicles plus eldar; there were so many nice places to put a Strength D 'dustbin lid of doom'. A volcano cannon could well have clipped three of your super heavies in one shot. As deployment areas are tight in apocalypse games and you really have to put your big stuff where you need in future it most players will just have to run the gauntlet of having a volcano cannon pop their best toys in the early turns. Oh and while the infantry die in droves. Yep that is a nice loadout for a titan, st it up at the back near but not in blocking cover ( for target restriction later in the game - see Void shield tactics above) but with a very good initial field of fire to take advantage of the long range. Shadowswords are not an answer unless backed up with massed baslisks to drop the shields first and you get the first turn. Byb the way this will cost almost as much as a titan in itself. Though it will may force the Reaver to shoot the Shadowsword rather than the bunched spearhead of short range super heavies and tooled up units at the front. The only thing a titan really fears from the basck row are some select fliers and deesptriking suicide infantry. Fire dragons especially. You need to surround it with cheap guard, but give yourself room to move the guard to move the titan for when the range closes and you need to start restricting incoming fire. While a princeps woul not hesitate to just walk over the guardswarm if needed to protect the titan the rules dont allow you to trample your own guys.

Orlanth wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
If we ignore the triple-barelled thing for a moment, and say it had a Gatling Launcher, Apoc Missile Launcher and Volcano Cannon, would it be such a big deal?

A Reaver is always a big deal, unless you give it two titan ccw's and a carapace inferno cannon. That is to say cannot target anything smaller than a gargantuan creatures with its arms - and cant catch any of those its finds and has a mega flamer with a minimum range longer thna its maximum range. Here you can really go to town on criticising Forgeworld for blind copy pasting rules.

They noticed that bug in the Warlord rules pretty quickly when Apocalypse came out, it's disappointing that it's still there. As it is, I doubt most people are keen on taking inferno cannons on battle titans, so I'd be surprised if this ever came into play.

I hope GW would FAQ the Apocalypse book for this and similar minor quibbles (do flyers get the 4+ cover save like fast-moving skimmers, can Agile units charge on a turn they forego some or all of their shooting to run). These seldom come into play, mostly in situations like Eldar flyers with holofields, shooting at flyers with a Pylon (Strength D weapons ignore cover saves, after all). The designers saying "you decide how 5E impacts Apocalypse games" in Apoc:R was a major disappointment.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I can only assume someone at FW got fed up of their stuff always being called overpriced and worthless crap (135-point Medusas, for example), threw a childish hissy fit and built the Reaver off that. The other possible explanation, that this is the reasoned opinion of a person drawing a salary as a "games designer", is almost too depressing to believe. Pathetic, thoroughly pathetic.

I am with you on this. Fiorgeworld did throw a hissy fit, but the fit was mostly about them not liking poeple with armorcast titans. Thus their attempt to punish Armorcast titan owners by making the new Forgeworld titans incompatible with them. It is ironic that the Forgeworld points cost better fits an rmorcast titan (with three minor guns) than its own.

Besides the second more pressing reason to undercost the unit was to drive sales. the Reaver as armed is incredibly cheesy, especially with two laser blasters. 1250pts was a sucker opunch to get THAT GUY to buy one. I always expected a repointing but I thought Vraks would clear up the price and make it 1750pts-1800pts. This figure was also the staff rumour at GW and makes sense as it mirrors the relative price in Epic closely.

On the other issue I am with H.B.M.C.

Agamemnon2 wrote:
I hope GW would FAQ the Apocalypse book for this and similar minor quibbles (do flyers get the 4+ cover save like fast-moving skimmers, can Agile units charge on a turn they forego some or all of their shooting to run). These seldom come into play, mostly in situations like Eldar flyers with holofields, shooting at flyers with a Pylon (Strength D weapons ignore cover saves, after all). The designers saying "you decide how 5E impacts Apocalypse games" in Apoc:R was a major disappointment.

I think that up to a point Forgeworld cannot tread on the toes of the self proclaimed genii in GW studio, and must follow the pattern of rules laid down by their masters. Dont expect Apocalypse rules to be cleared by Forgeworld if it is Jervis who screws up to begin with. There is no pointing that the Emperor has no clothes allowed, reading one article of "Standard Bearer" should tell you that. Pride is a dangerous thing.

Orlanth wrote:I am with you on this. Fiorgeworld did throw a hissy fit, but the fit was mostly about them not liking poeple with armorcast titans. Thus their attempt to punish Armorcast titan owners by making the new Forgeworld titans incompatible with them. It is ironic that the Forgeworld points cost better fits an rmorcast titan (with three minor guns) than its own.

The Titan missile launcher has always been a battle titan weapon, and is pretty much emblematic Reaver carapace armament from what I can recall. Just a nitpick.

It seems self-defeating that FW would want to drive up sales of the Reaver, one of their most complex kits that, according to rumors, takes 16 man-hours to cast per-unit, with each mould being good for only three attempts. Indeed, the nature of resin casting ought to be that you could afford to have product codes that don't sell because, I'm told, each individual initial investment is, by comparison, smaller, while the ongoing costs are larger. On the scale models market there are resin kit companies out there that cater to tiny markets (WW2 experimental vehicles, rare aircraft, vintage or concept cars, etc), with individual kits having potential sales of only in the low hundreds, perhaps even less.

I don't know about FW production or sales figures (obviously), but I estimate them to be higher than this, which explains some of their delivery and casting problems. To strive for even larger sales figures under the current business model does not seem feasible. An IRC friend recently got a Chaos Warhound, numbered somewhere in the 1100s, does anyone happen to know how long that kit has been out there? It'd be interesting to know how many of those are shifted per-month, say.

To give credit where credit is due, I do approve of FW's production values in terms of their books, my 5E book is already falling apart and for all its flaws, IA:A is a very good looking volume. I feel my earlier comments might have come across as being able to be misconstrued as contemptuous of Forge World, but wherein I only wished to express my disappointment of a continual trend of lacking authorial oversight in their rules writing.

As for the aforementioned rules problems with Apocalypse, I concur that if anyone should fix them, it's the GW design staff responsible for them in the first place. It's a long shot, but it never hurts to hope.

Now Revenants are not tough because of the 4+save, that was never particularly unusual especially now in 5th. It is dangerous because its Eldar and expensive and any decent player therefore attaches a Farseer with Fortune to it, oh and Guide too while he is at it. Then it is very nasty indeed.

Farseer's can't Fortune Titans.

Where does it say that? For both Fortune and Guide the rules say 'Nominate one eldar unit within 6" of the Farseer'. A Revenant titan is an Eldar unit.

Now Revenants are not tough because of the 4+save, that was never particularly unusual especially now in 5th. It is dangerous because its Eldar and expensive and any decent player therefore attaches a Farseer with Fortune to it, oh and Guide too while he is at it. Then it is very nasty indeed.

You can't use psychic powers on Titans unless it is a shooting attack with a strength profile. It's in the APOC rulebook.

Void shields are armour 12, though I do think the armour value should be modified by what is carrying the shield, so Reavers and Warlords with Av13 shields, but enough of wants and wishes. 12 is not high enough to be absorbing similar firepower as you use on the hull. So you can hose down a titan with autocannon before firing lascannon. However if the opponent only takes lascannon to max out firepower they can lose out here.

Void shields are nice, but vs. Str D weapons they don't work. Str D weapons bypass the Void Shields. Once again it's all there in the APOC rulebook.

Capt K

APOC rulebook. The section explaining Titans and Gargantuan creatures.

Capt K

Orlanth wrote:Where does it say that? For both Fortune and Guide the rules say 'Nominate one eldar unit within 6" of the Farseer'. A Revenant titan is an Eldar unit.

CaptKaruthors wrote:
You can't use psychic powers on Titans unless it is a shooting attack with a strength profile. It's in the APOC rulebook.

Yes I will have to be mindful of that next time. The rules was tucked away in a little box as a 'by the way'.

CaptKaruthors wrote:
Void shields are nice, but vs. Str D weapons they don't work. Str D weapons bypass the Void Shields. Once again it's all there in the APOC rulebook.
Capt K

Under the circumstances I am prepared to beleive you enough to look but I had never notice that one either. After a careful reread of the Destroyer weapon rules, the void shield rules and the power field rules from which void shield rules are taken I see nothing that tells me Strength D weapons ignore void shields. Is this tucked away in a little box somewhere?

Sure strength D causes instant penetrating gits, but void shields/power fields negate penetrating hits, one each. You only bypass this in close combat or by getting under its shields (range 12" or less). This second rule should really only apply to infantry held weapons.

Though not an answer in itself because of the amount of butchery of the background material Epic void shields always worke agaisnt big weapons, in fact it was what they were most useful for. You would have to knock down the shields before you turn your big gun on the titan.



While we are discussing this, is there any rule that prevents a Techmarine or Enginseer and servitor retinue from repairing titans. Its a dirty trick I will admit and I am loath to dedicate a Techmarine squad to permenantly follow each titan because its the sort of annoying thing That Guy would do.

Enginseers and Techmarines can repair a Titan's Weapons as they can repair Weapon Destroyed and Immobilized results.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Orlanth wrote:I am with you on this. Fiorgeworld did throw a hissy fit, but the fit was mostly about them not liking poeple with armorcast titans. Thus their attempt to punish Armorcast titan owners by making the new Forgeworld titans incompatible with them. It is ironic that the Forgeworld points cost better fits an rmorcast titan (with three minor guns) than its own.

The Titan missile launcher has always been a battle titan weapon, and is pretty much emblematic Reaver carapace armament from what I can recall. Just a nitpick.

Back to the titan gripes. my posts above indicate that the Reaver 'always' had a titan missile launcher as a carapace mount. Very few Armorcast Reavers I have seen mount anything else, especially now with ther minimum range for carapace weaponry. The difference is with the arm weapons: NONE of the Armorcast arm weapons are now valid except the titan powerfist and the titan chainsword. I really dont think this is accidental.

I have an Armorcast Reaver on the way from the US, I will be scratchbuilding my own arm weapons to go on it.

Well,

Rife with speliing errors, predictable in some places, and once again proving the addage that Imperial Guardsmen are of no use other than bulletstoppers, IA6 was nonetheless an enjoyable read.

My boys the Red Scorpions kicked some major ass, some absolutely GORGEOUS pics of the Reaver titan in action, and lots of really cool fluff. Loved it. I'm a fanboy, what can I say...

And the way they ended IA6 virtually assures them a sale on IA7 when it's offered for pre-order...

the caveman like...

Do you have your copy to hand?

I would be grateful if you compare the listing for the Reaver titan with this document:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/downloads40k.htm

Select the Reaver titan, fourth one down (direct link to .pdf doesnt work)

While the price is the most important thing, it may well not be the only thing to have changed. I am particularly interested if the arm weapons choices have changed at all.

I'd like a page reference for the "Strength D ignores Void shields" part too. I've looked and looked, and I just can't seem to see it.

And if you want sick, try a Reaver with a Vortex Missile, Melta Cannon and Volcano Cannon. For 1450? Yes, please!

Mithrax wrote:I'd like a page reference for the "Strength D ignores Void shields" part too. I've looked and looked, and I just can't seem to see it.

I dont think it is true, unless it was written in a FAQ. even so thast would go against void shield fluff from Epic.

And if you want sick, try a Reaver with a Vortex Missile, Melta Cannon and Volcano Cannon. For 1450? Yes, please!

Orlanth wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Orlanth wrote:I am with you on this. Fiorgeworld did throw a hissy fit, but the fit was mostly about them not liking poeple with armorcast titans. Thus their attempt to punish Armorcast titan owners by making the new Forgeworld titans incompatible with them. It is ironic that the Forgeworld points cost better fits an rmorcast titan (with three minor guns) than its own.

The Titan missile launcher has always been a battle titan weapon, and is pretty much emblematic Reaver carapace armament from what I can recall. Just a nitpick.

Back to the titan gripes. my posts above indicate that the Reaver 'always' had a titan missile launcher as a carapace mount. Very few Armorcast Reavers I have seen mount anything else, especially now with ther minimum range for carapace weaponry. The difference is with the arm weapons: NONE of the Armorcast arm weapons are now valid except the titan powerfist and the titan chainsword. I really dont think this is accidental.

The Reaver carapace missile launcher is something of a given, yes. I wonder what the original rules for Reaver weapons were, because I don't remember ever seeing even an Epic one with anything other than either that missile pod or a giant banner/shrine in that carapace slot.

The current Adeptus Mechanicus Titan Legions armylist, too, gives Reavers access to both Scout Titan and Battle Titan weaponry (unless I'm missing something, their formatting's gone worse since the 2.0).

I have two signed copies, how much is the signature of Warwick Kinrade worth?

FIVE DOLLAH!

Hey Orlanth, the entry that you posted is 100% spot on accurate, with the exception of the points cost. 1450 in the book. If I only had $1,000USD to spend on a model.... --sigh--

I heard militia squads were dropped to 40 points. Any truth to that? And maybe a sign of things to come?

Page 204, appendix of IA6, Seige of vraks pt 2,

DESTROYER
Also know as titan killers, weapons with this special rule on thier profile deliver an immense amount of damage to thier target. If a weapon has a "D" in it's profile instead of a Strenght value, it is a DESTROYER. If a DESTROYER weapons hits a target, including partial hits from a template, there is no need to roll for penetration, it automatically scores a penetrating hit.

This hit can still be downgraded to a glancing hit by rules that have that effect ( smoke, fast skimmers, etc) with the exception of cover which cannot obscure the vehicle as the destroyer weapon just blasts it's way right thru.

In addition, when rolling to determine the damage result, add+1 to the result

If a destroyer weapon hits a non-vehicle model, there is now roll to wound, it automatically scores a wound. if the target fails its save, ( no cover saves allowed, as above, but invulnerable saves DO apply) the weapon always inflicts instant death, reguardless of the targets toughness if the target is immune to instant death, the target takes a single wound instead, as normal


--there ya go folks...I would still say that void shields work, as they ABSORB damage caused by glancing or penetrating hits...

Raxor,

Militia COMMAND squad is 40pts, Militia squad is 60pts. :(

Thats precisely how I read it.

CapNCaveman! wrote:Hey Orlanth, the entry that you posted is 100% spot on accurate, with the exception of the points cost. 1450 in the book. If I only had $1,000USD to spend on a model.... --sigh--

Ok, that is what I needed to hear, no Armorcast arm weapons confirmed. It looks like a major scratchbuild conversion job on my Reaver when it arrives.

Or you could just keep it as is, for a hefty discount in points. I know I'd be okay with taking 200-250 points off the top if both arms were mounting Scout Titan weapons.

I wish they'd gone for the more traditional chassis+weapons mode of pricing, because that way we'd just need to set points costs for the lighter guns.

Yep, they said, Hey guys, if you're man enough, here's a 1450 pt model, that costs $1,000.00 USD. IF you take it, pick any 3 weapons you like...

my guys at my FLGS just SCREAM when I bring out "Scipio" my FW wolf class Lucious pattern scout titan...got him tricked out with Plasma blastgun, and turbo laser arm. works every time...

There are many levels of conspiracy theory that I'm not willing to believe, and one of them is that FW went out of their way to not include the ArmourCast Reaver weapon options in their Reaver rules.

They probably either didn't know or simply didn't care about the previous Reaver. I don't see anything underhanded happening here.

BYE

In a weird turnaround, my Forge World Order, made only 6 days ago, arrived this morning. I suppose that makes up for spending £40 on express shipping last time and it taking 2 months to arrive.

So now I have IA6. And lots of Chaos Dreads and Death Guard and Mortis Dread arms. I am happy.

BYE

And it appears that the Nurgle Dread DCCW is missing. Oh well... I didn't expect them to get everything right.

BYE