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H.B.M.C. wrote:There are many levels of conspiracy theory that I'm not willing to believe, and one of them is that FW went out of their way to not include the ArmourCast Reaver weapon options in their Reaver rules.

They probably either didn't know or simply didn't care about the previous Reaver. I don't see anything underhanded happening here.

It could also be designers' one-upmanship. They wanted to go to eleven on the weapons, because by now, the Warhound has already made an appearance on numerous battlefields. There's perhaps not enough "whoah" in being able to field inferno cannons and vulcan mega-bolters in a larger frame, even with the Apocalypse missile launcher. So instead they went big.

Now comes the horrible part of calling them, telling them what they did wrong and wait two months for the replacement part. Welcome to the rest of the world

It might not be that bad. My friend got his missing toe joint for a Chaos Warhound shipped to him in, I think, a week.

H.B.M.C. wrote:There are many levels of conspiracy theory that I'm not willing to believe, and one of them is that FW went out of their way to not include the ArmourCast Reaver weapon options in their Reaver rules.

They probably either didn't know or simply didn't care about the previous Reaver. I don't see anything underhanded happening here.

BYE

Neg.

1. Forgeworld produce the other type of Reaver in epic scale. In fact the Epic scale Reavers they produce cannot be deployed in Apocalypse. So it is no excuse to say they dont know abour Reavers.

2. Every single one of the editions of epic had the armament of the Armorcast Reaver titans. The current edition of Epic uses this, the default configuation of a Reaver is with two plasma blastguns as arm weapons.

3. The only reason to almost completely erase the existing armament options is to deny Armorcast titan owners. They only keep the missile launcher because 'every' decent looking Reaver should, and the close combat weapons because it would be hard to ignore especially as titan ccws are a one size fits all category.

FW sent me a few miscast pieces, one email later, they sent them out, got a new sprue free of charge in 5 days for my red scorpions...good customer service, hope they work it out for ya...

The resending could be avoided if they had better quality control, but that's just wistful thinking I guess. I had two wait for more than a month for a replacement sprue of shotguns to arrive though I guess that it has to do with the kit in question. The guy who orders a Warhound or Dreadnought is more important than the guy who orders Elysians or a Baneblade.

Orlanth wrote:2. Every single one of the editions of epic had the armament of the Armorcast Reaver titans. The current edition of Epic uses this, the default configuation of a Reaver is with two plasma blastguns as arm weapons.

Nup. Don't buy it.

Aga's explanation is 1000 times more plausible. They needed a new release that had the 'Whoa' factor. A more expensive piece of resin that mounts the same guns as the smaller less expensive resin does not fit that bill. A larger piece of resin with a six-barelled gattling Battle Cannon and a triple barelled laser cannon - that has 'whoa' factor to it.

There's no conspiracy theory to make people who own existing Armourcast ones 'have to buy new ones'.

BYE

A lot of people will disagree most likely, but I really like the rules for both the Krieg engineers and the Hades assault drill. Once I get my hands on a Hades and Mole Mortar it'll be a real blast.

Please note: I play for fun.

Too bad, the Nurgle CC claw is really cool.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nup. Don't buy it.

Aga's explanation is 1000 times more plausible. They needed a new release that had the 'Whoa' factor. A more expensive piece of resin that mounts the same guns as the smaller less expensive resin does not fit that bill. A larger piece of resin with a six-barelled gattling Battle Cannon and a triple barelled laser cannon - that has 'whoa' factor to it.

There's no conspiracy theory to make people who own existing Armourcast ones 'have to buy new ones'.

BYE

Sorry you make no logical sense.

Sure they could get the Whoa factor and add new weapons. But while doing so keep the existing canon cannon for the Reaver. EVERY Reaver prior to the Forgeworld kit is now outside the official rules for 40K. Every. Single. One. EVERY Epic Reaver is incompatible with the new Reaver rules at 40K scale. Every. Single. One.

It is no less extreme than if a new rulebook said that Leman Russ had no battlecannon and continued as if they never had. It is similar to having a new odex say marine tacticals have autiocannon, but can nio longer have lascannon, and continue as if they never did. Sure far more poeple would be effected, but the principle is the exactly the same.

Besides speaking to some select GW staff members who know Forgeworld this is how they think. In fact the quote I heard is that some at Forgeworld get "pissed off" when they see Armorcast Warhounds. but that to you is hearsay.

I will leave you with two choices, there is no logic for a third.

The 40K Reaver is 100% incompatible with prior Reaver fluff, including all Epic variants since 1st edition and by happenstance Armorcast 40K Reavers because:

1. Incompetence
2. To put the thumb on Armorcast Reavers

Mind you to be this incompetent about the games own fluff Forgeworld must really have to have no real care about the 40K universe its background or its history. with Forgeworld I dont buy that for a second. Also they would have to forget that they themselves produce the Epic reaver titans, and yes they are all incompatible between scales also.

You realize you guys are playing Apoc right? Make up your own rules for the damn thing, you are playing in a B.F.G.!!

Or just count your Armorcast Titan as having the FW armament. Voila, problem solved.

Geez.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Orlanth wrote:2. Every single one of the editions of epic had the armament of the Armorcast Reaver titans. The current edition of Epic uses this, the default configuation of a Reaver is with two plasma blastguns as arm weapons.

Laser blasters, actually (Epic rulebook chapter 5, pg. 103), but don't let a fact check get on the way.

Ozymandias wrote:You realize you guys are playing Apoc right? Make up your own rules for the damn thing, you are playing in a B.F.G.!!

Or just count your Armorcast Titan as having the FW armament. Voila, problem solved.

He's not looking for a solution. Providing one wouldn't take games-designer levels of intelligence. He's looking for a soapbox to shout abuse at Forge World from.

Even if FW had intentionally set out to cut out Armorcast titans from their ruleset, so what? They have a right to do with the rules whatever the heck they want, including overturning 20 years of prior examples if they really want. For all we know, they only wrote rules to the armaments they intend to produce in resin.

The rest of the Armorcast catalogue isn't games-legal either. Their Baneblades and Shadowswords have differing weapons fits from the GW/FW versions. Should we care that the Epicast Stompa isn't compatible with Apocalypse stompa datasheets next? Of course not.

Could we now, please, for the love of Nuffle, Mork and apple pie, return to discussing something else about this book, or should we just continue this fruitless tug of war further? Neither side is likely to change their mind. Orlanth will refuse to give FW any benefit of doubt, and I for my part will refuse to consider them nefarious agents of Satan, so to what end is this endless bickering, really?

On an unrelated note, yes, the Hades really looks to be great fun.

Hey Orlanth, so much for your "Every. Single. One." Statement..... This is an Epic Reaver, with weapons compatible with the new 40K scale one. In fact the exact same weapons as the 40K one.

Not that I disagree on the fact of FW being calculating bastards. Of course they are, have you seen their prices? Without any other eveidence, just looking at their prices shows that much....

Anyways, on to the good stuff. This is straight from FW´s Epic Titans, has been there for ages.

(Found Here)
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/QUATERMASTERS_STORE_EPIC_40_000_TITANS_24.html

LUCIUS PATTERN REAVER TITAN 1

(Product Code SG-EPC-E-001) Titans are the supreme fighting machines of the Imperium. They are giants with skins of adamantium, protected by fields of almost impenetrable energy. The Reaver Class is a light Battle Titan, faster than the Warlord but less heavily armed or armoured. This variant is produced on the Lucius forge world and is armed with a Volcano Cannon, Gatling Blaster and Rocket Launcher. Master Model by Brian Fawcett.

Ouch. Hoisted by his own petard, nicely done!

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Laser blasters, actually (Epic rulebook chapter 5, pg. 103), but don't let a fact check get on the way.

When was that from. The Epic Armageddon Eldar expansion book remaining unsold in the GW showed plasma blastguns as default. I smell switcheroo.

Someone should fix that horrid typo in the title of this thread. *tries to keep monocle from popping from glaring eye*

Anyhow, I've read through the "story" part and I've found it most enjoying, especially as the writing was much better than the previous instalments and hark! No typos. It would seem that good old Lindsey has done her job good and proper. Anyway, the ebb and flow of both sides fighting and losing is nicely penned down and thankfully the Red Scorpions do not steal the limelight from the men of Krieg. I also liked the entire chapter devoted to the Krieg engineers and the big wink to WWI mining and sapping. People expecting a lot shouldn't be too surprised as while stuff does happen, it isn't that moist inducing or awing. All it does is end on a half-hearted cliffhanger that won't be answered until next year.

Art-wise: I'm a sucker for the technical drawings and the character art. The character art is as always done by Karl Koppinski and while most of the art is taken from the poster it is still marvellous to look at. Included are: Rogue Psyker, Death Rider of Krieg, Commissar, Death Korps officer and Ensign, Death Korps Engineer, Red Scorpions sergeant and a Vraksian Renegade Enforcer.

Rules: I won't go into the rules as there are other people far better at tearing them apart and criticizing it for whatever ticks them off at the moment. All I will say is that I personally enjoy the rules for the Krieg engineers and the Hades Assault Drill. Other than that a lot of existing vehicles have been given entries for some odd reason and the Renegade Guard list has gotten a slight revamp with the inclusion of World Eaters in the HQ and Elites slots. They also gain the Hounds of Xaphan, a squad of three massive hounds and an Ogryn handler, there a picture of those floating around here somewhere. Worker rabble is being replaced by mutant rabble and the Renegades also gain Bloodgor Beastman attack squads. Renegades can also field the Hell Talon and Hell Blade as heavy support.

Strangely enough Nurgle units and army lists are missing in this instalment, even though they got some exposure in the "story" section of the book.

All in all I like this one and it I rate it as my third most favourite in the six Imperial Armour books released thus far. If I have to give it a stupid rating I'd say out of five silver birdies.

Orlanth wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Laser blasters, actually (Epic rulebook chapter 5, pg. 103), but don't let a fact check get on the way.

When was that from. The Epic Armageddon Eldar expansion book remaining unsold in the GW showed plasma blastguns as default. I smell switcheroo.

A conspiracy no doubt.

Xanthos wrote:Hey Orlanth, so much for your "Every. Single. One." Statement.....
(Found Here)
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/QUATERMASTERS_STORE_EPIC_40_000_TITANS_24.html

LUCIUS PATTERN REAVER TITAN 1

Agamemnon2 wrote:Ouch. Hoisted by his own petard, nicely done!

While you gloat, check the one afterwards.....three missile launchers, which of course it cannot have.

Every single one now becomes all but one. still there is still the exception that proves the rule, and of course its a Forgeworld kit and thereforefits in the new swallow out doctrine I am talking about.

I have Epic going back to Codex Titanicus, none of them match the outfitting for the Forgeworld kit, and have options the current Reaver cannot support. Why is that exactly?





EDIT: I gave your arguement more credit than it deserves, I double checked in case I was wrong and I was not. I checked the 1991 Codex Titanicus the 200 internet expansion to Epic armageddon, my 3rd edition epic rulebooks, I cannot check the Eldar suppluement at hand because I do not own it. I just know where there is one I can look at. all the ones I could check are incompatible. The only part where I was even remotely close two wrong was with the Foreworld reasver 1 posted above. It is coveredc in all the rules as i thought, it just happens to also fit the new forgeworld rules, unlike the other.

To make sure we are clear Reavers can take any weapon Except plasma destructor, wrecker ball and in some editions Quake/macro cannon.

The new Forgeworld kit misses out all the ranged arm weapons that just happen to be available on the old epic and therefore Armorcast titans, but leaves the others intact. Armoracst Reavers could technically mount many weapons, but any that happened to have been cast in the resin kits are not available in the fules now. No mega bolter, no turbo laser, no plasma blastgun (the default armament) and no inferno cannon. Those that have not been cast by Armorcast are still available for the titan, gatling blaster, laser blaster melta cannon and volcano cannon, which while available were not IIRC ever cast for the Reaver and therefore were never copied by Armorcast. Its a straight either or, honest cooincidence perhaps? Yeah right.

Orlanth wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Ouch. Hoisted by his own petard, nicely done!

While you gloat, check the one afterwards.....three missile launchers, which of course it cannot have.

Every single one now becomes all but one. still there is still the exception that proves the rule, and of course its a Forgeworld kit and thereforefits in the new swallow out doctrine I am talking about.

I have Epic going back to Codex Titanicus, none of them match the outfitting for the Forgeworld kit, and have options the current Reaver cannot support. Why is that exactly?

Don't take me for an simpleton. I know perfectly well that there exists only a single model to refute your blanket statement. There's no need to "point that out" for me. As for the rest of it, we're just going around in circles now. No answer we will produce is ever going to satisfy you, it'd just further poison the well of this thread.

Out of curiosity, do you own an Armorcast titan or are you just arguing this thing for principle's sake? Something made me guess the latter, but I'm willing to entertain doubt on the matter.

I made a logical argument and backed it up with facts. I get attacked, I respond with more clear logic.

Frankly I am not attacking you, just stating what I see as a valid case.

If you think you have an answer to satisfy me I would like to hear it. Xanthos found half of one that I had not in all honesty seen, this solitary model titan. Within the new and old rules together.

When did the switch to laser blasters for Reaver standard armament come from? The specialist games website is still on 2005 publications, and I am up to date for there.

It would of course make logical sense for them to retcon Epic now so that only the new titans are valid. This would of course deny the old Epic Reavers that many peole have.

As for my collection. I have had titans in the past a Epic scale, but traded them away for a 40K marine army some years back.
I have no Reaver, but I have one on its way, yes it is an Armorcast. It guns will go on the Warhound and I will scratchbuild others. Personally I will not lose out, I am walig into the trade knowing that I have work to do on the kit. I might counts as for a while, but I want a Volcano cannon on my Reaver, and welcome its inclusion, just not the expulsion of other options.

I will not lose out by the current ruling on reavers, the Missile launcher is still there, and I will have two other guns. My concern is the affrontery of Forgeworld. And the quote I had on their attitude to Armorcast kits is from a very good source.

Their attitude should be that anyone willing to buy a 40K scale titan is a customer well and truly into the hobby. The attitude is close to if you are currently buying from us, you get THE FINGER. Most companies accept enthusiasts with old models of whatever they have sold because an old customer is likely a future customer. GW have had a hostile approach to not-current customers for a very long time, and only on rare occassion step the other way. To be fair two examples do come to mind, the deliberate inclusion of old school Glade Guard (spear and shield) as Eternal Guard. Also old school Razorbacks are now permitted alongside the current plastic kits in the new Marine codex. These are rare execeptions, bad customer support is more normal than good. However in the case of the Armorcast licenced products it is a little more personal than that. IG Griffons were forgotten in IG rule changes, from what I heard Armorcast titans were very much remembered when these rules were written.

Orlanth,

this is not a dig at you, but I would not be surprised to see GW (Of which FW is wholly-owned subsidiary of) to one day require that all customers get kicked squarely in the nutsack with every purchase of 10$ or more. They would still make money.

I dont buy the FW reaver conspiracy thing, but I'm pretty sure that SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, brought it up during development, and the FW masters probably said "screw THOSE guys" lets do new weapons, and make em look extra blasty!!!111

Honestly...it's GW..the company is being run by Manatees pushing "idea balls" into vacuum tubes for codex and rules design, then slaps a big ole price tag on it and sendt it out the door...and I still buy it, cause my wife lets me play with plastic army men on saturdays

Orlanth wrote:If you think you have an answer to satisfy me I would like to hear it. Xanthos found half of one that I had not in all honesty seen, this solitary model titan. Within the new and old rules together.

When did the switch to laser blasters for Reaver standard armament come from? The specialist games website is still on 2005 publications, and I am up to date for there.

I'm in the wrong there, actually. I checked the PDF on the SG site again, and the standard Mars-pattern armament is two Turbo Laser Destructors, not Laster Blasters. I blame the incredibly convoluted weapons nomenclature of the 40k universe (I still can't remember which is bigger, an inferno gun or an inferno cannon). I didn't mean to imply that the current EA rules had battle titan weapons for the arms, I just managed to trip over the names.

As for what explanation I could offer to the situation as-is, would be the following sequence of events.

1. The plan to build a Reaver is proposed
2. They do preliminary work on it, wanting to go bigger and badder than the Warhound. The size of the finished model is decided upon.
3. They try the Warhound weapons on it (since they've already pretty much locked down what each of those look like), and decide it looks weedy, doesn't really give a new WHOAH experience. They need weapons for it the players haven't seen yet, precedence be damned, FW is all about making models that look cool, not living up to GW fluff.
4. They decide to give the arms Warlord weapons instead. The stats for those are already up in Apocalypse, plus it makes the Reaver look 100% new instead of just a bigger frame for the same guns
5. Someone writes the rules, with an eye out to the model, probably being finalized at this point. There's maybe some talk about making additional arm weapon options, so might as well stat those out as well. Again, they probably figure new things like a volcano cannon and a mega-powerfist sell better than Scout Titan weapons, so those get included, and Warhound weapons get discarded.

That's probably more optimist than anything that's ever taken place, of course. The truth, for what it's worth (absolutely nothing), is more likely to lie somewhere between such extremes. Maybe they gave us the big guns because they know making a Warlord model is impossible and they wanted to have the next best thing, turning the Reaver into Warlord-Lite

This might actually be the silliest argument I've ever seen on Dakka.

We need Triggerbaby to come in here, make fun of everyone and kill the thread. C'mon Triggerbaby, I believe in you!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Like I said, I'd prefer to talk about the rest of the book. I.e. I hear the Mole Launcher isn't worth spit.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

I'm in the wrong there, actually. I checked the PDF on the SG site again, and the standard Mars-pattern armament is two Turbo Laser Destructors, not Laster Blasters.

Well I was in the wrong too. I remember the picture clearly enough to remember it was an old Epic Reaver (ie Armorcast compatible and currently disavowed), but still got the wrong guns.
At least you also are man enough to come back and say so.
I have got it wrong on this very thread more than once anyway. Fortuned and Guided Revenants, no wonder they were winning, nuff said.

Agamemnon2 wrote:
As for what explanation I could offer to the situation as-is, would be the following sequence of events.

1. The plan to build a Reaver is proposed
2. They do preliminary work on it, wanting to go bigger and badder than the Warhound. The size of the finished model is decided upon.
3. They try the Warhound weapons on it (since they've already pretty much locked down what each of those look like), and decide it looks weedy, doesn't really give a new WHOAH experience. They need weapons for it the players haven't seen yet, precedence be damned, FW is all about making models that look cool, not living up to GW fluff.
4. They decide to give the arms Warlord weapons instead. The stats for those are already up in Apocalypse, plus it makes the Reaver look 100% new instead of just a bigger frame for the same guns
5. Someone writes the rules, with an eye out to the model, probably being finalized at this point. There's maybe some talk about making additional arm weapon options, so might as well stat those out as well. Again, they probably figure new things like a volcano cannon and a mega-powerfist sell better than Scout Titan weapons, so those get included, and Warhound weapons get discarded.

That's probably more optimist than anything that's ever taken place, of course. The truth, for what it's worth (absolutely nothing), is more likely to lie somewhere between such extremes. Maybe they gave us the big guns because they know making a Warlord model is impossible and they wanted to have the next best thing, turning the Reaver into Warlord-Lite

I buy your story that the Reaver was due an upgunning, it could always have those guns and its armament is still legal for old epic. In this way the current Forgeworld loadout is not apocryphal for Epic, and I was misleading on how I represented this earlier in the thread. My complaint is entirely on exclusions not on what you can now take. I am looking forward to my scratchbuilt volcano cannon and laser/gatling blaster (dont know which yet).

I do have a problem with some of the new guns, the strength D multi shot weapons, but that mistake is not Forgeworlds fault, but Jervises. The laser blaster needs fixing, not taking off the titan. Also the rules for carapace weapons are poorly conceived. Big guns like volcano cannon deserve as minimum range penalty, while a mega bolter or inferno cannon needs to be able to shoot infantry attacking the titan. I would have prefered one major and two minor weapons, upgraded to two major weapons and one minor weapon for a point cost upgrade, with the weapons fitting anywhere, within reason. Also close combat weapons should be minor titasn weapons, they are only worth swapping out the lighter guns. But again that is just wishing.




Not being a direct dig at you, but you should (re)read this thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/190647.page

We both posted there, and at this point neither of us had seen the Datafax so we were going only on our preconceptions or external sources. I was already suspicious that Forgeworld would hose Armorcast titans if a Reaver of their own was to be made, and strongly suspected that it might be ommitted permenantly. I mention this because my objections to the new datasheet is not out of angry reaction, I already 'knew' beforehand that this would not end up well for Armorcast titan owners. My sources in GW were good.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Like I said, I'd prefer to talk about the rest of the book. I.e. I hear the Mole Launcher isn't worth spit.

Well it's a cheap weapon that has a short range. Personally I like the rules attached to the weapon, but then again I play for fun.

BrookM wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Like I said, I'd prefer to talk about the rest of the book. I.e. I hear the Mole Launcher isn't worth spit.

Well it's a cheap weapon that has a short range. Personally I like the rules attached to the weapon, but then again I play for fun.

Very well, end of Reaver Titan armament discussion agreed.

Does the mole launcher ignore cover saves, or have extra effect against the cover itself. It seems like a weapon made for siege warfare.

BrookM wrote:...but then again I play for fun.

I'd like you show me someone who doesn't play for fun.

BYE

Orlanth wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:
Not being a direct dig at you, but you should (re)read this thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/190647.page

We both posted there, and at this point neither of us had seen the Datafax so we were going only on our preconceptions or external sources. I was already suspicious that Forgeworld would hose Armorcast titans if a Reaver of their own was to be made, and strongly suspected that it might be ommitted permenantly. I mention this because my objections to the new datasheet is not out of angry reaction, I already 'knew' beforehand that this would not end up well for Armorcast titan owners. My sources in GW were good.

Hm, that was a fun trip down memory lane. Looks like a lot of people were doubting we'd even get a Reaver of any sort. Looks like I was snarky back then, too: "After all, they are called Forge World, not Wraithbone Lathe or Mek's Garage. "

Wow, conspiracy? Are FW the guys behind the Enron conspiracy?

No, but seriously, if you are not happy with it, don't go with it.