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Got my copy this morning and i will do a review tonight (UK time). looks very pretty though and the rules for the Krieg engineers rock.
Also got a new catalogue add-on which includes the Red Scorpian's venerable dread and the Ultramarines one (both £24 without weapons but with back-banners), Khorne World Eaters special character Lord Zhufor (£15) whuch looks quite sexy and an OrK flak wagon (£no price yet) and also looks great. The model masterclass vol one is £26 and should be available soon.

More tonight.

Please tell us the revised (I hope) points cost for the Reaver titan. I seriously hope that Forgeworld, who normally overprice stuff, are not going to maintain the farce of a 1250pt pricetag for the titan.

Please also tel us if anything changed from the experimental rules.

In case you didn't know Orlanth, Warrick is a super hero. But super heroes have powers, I hear you cry. This is true Orlanth, and Warrick does have a super power.

What is it?

Why the power of 'Copy/Paste'!!

One only has to look at books like Imperial Armour Apocalypse and IA3 to just feel the radiating power of his Copy/Paste ability.



This is just a longwinded way of saying it's likely he just copy/pasted the text from the PDF into the master file for IA6 and changed very little. I hope I'm wrong, but given Warrick's and FW's track record when it comes to writing rules, I doubt it.


I ordered my copy last week (along with some Nurgle Marine and Terminator bits, three Chaos Dreads and heaps of Mortis pattern arms). I look forward to finishing my Death Guard army and reading IA6 sometime in 2009.

BYE

Crap, still waiting for my copy. I really do hope that those engineers have good rules, They've been collecting dust since February now. Your copy isn't signed by chance now is it?

edit.

Hmmm, I remember getting my Imperial Armour Apocalypse book and finding the massive FAQ on the site later that week. At times even the written work of FW suffers as much as their casting qualities. I like the background of their IA books, but they are typo riddled and sometimes of questionable writ.

well,

I certainly hope that the imperium actually wins this fight...in IA3 and 4 they got thier collective butts kicked...waiting on my copy of IA 6 now...:(

Yeah, aæsp waiting on mine still... And I actually ordered within the first week of it being available for preorder...

Like day three or so. :S

The Imperium will win the fight, of that I am certain. Otherwise they wouldn't include a young commander Culln as a veteran sergeant in the campaign.

He didn't get jobbed in IA:4, so it's entirely possible they all run away like girls in this one as well.

Space marines that actually think and withdraw instead of standing on that convenient hillock and wait for the enemy hordes to approach and swamp them in an unending tide of marine death while their commander raises his weapons in dramatic "yaaaaaargh" moment for one last time? Wow, FW must be breaking GW tradition here.

BrookM wrote:Crap, still waiting for my copy. I really do hope that those engineers have good rules, They've been collecting dust since February now.

Wait, sorry, what are you expecting from FW in an IA? Good rules?

Actually, I collect the books for the background info and the slice of fictional history they present. Once in a while I stumble upon in my opinion great rules. I absolutely love the D99 regimental rules, they got me into Elysians.

But I know how Fw does the rules for their units. Warwick is known for overpricing stuff points-wise just to be on the safe side. Nothing is going to stop you from fielding that cool model. Nothing but the price tag and the point cost.

first 2 easy questions -
yes my book was signed
the reaver is not 1250 - it's 1450!

now to the meat.
there is one squad entry for the red scorpions - i presume there will be more in Vraks part 3
the Hades drill is sweet and delivers the engineers the next turn. they can be equipped with gas grenades - which can be quite rude depending what you roll (i'll let you read the rules in your own book - sorry i don't believe in leaking precise rules from a £40 book!) - and the mole launcher.
As well as the reaver the imperials (& renegades) also get the rules for the Macharius Vulcan (60" str 6 ap 3 heavy stupid), a chaplain dread and a siege dread.

Chaos renegade players get a whole new army list which (strangely) is Khorne-themed (I thought it would be Nurgle as they've released more models for them). It includes Khorne Berserkers and hounds of Xaphan - i think these are chaos warhounds looking from the stats and have an ogryn handler! Now that's cool.
there are also new datafaxes for the dreadclaw, chaos planes, chaos dread and chaos marine standard vehicles.

the odd thing is that a lot of these are not in the army lists, only the scenario lists at the back. Talking of which these include scenarios for Battlefleet Gothic, Apocalypse (spelt Apocalype on one title!) and Aeonautica.

The weird thing about this book is that some of the entries appear to be based on 5th ed rules but the Krieg engineers still have the 'Die Hards' rule (ignore -Ld modifiers for being outnumbered in cc) which is no longer relevant - and cost 5points per squad!

I'm also really disappointed that there is no errata for converting the 1st book to the new rules (including the die-hards rule above and the rule for Arkos the Faithless, a chaos marine captain - as i only have the current chaos marine book i don't know what things like 'spikey bits' does or costs so he is unusable to me)

Overall there is more background and has about 20 more pages (208). the scenarios are too big to tempt me - can't afford that much resin! The pictures, as ever, are beautifully rendered.
to sum up - I like it but they could have done better 3 out of 5.

Right, here's hoping that I get mine tomorrow or my UPS delivery upgrade has been wasted.

So what do the rules for the mole launcher look like? (No specific numbers necessary - just the general description of how it works.)

looking forward to the next one.

This book is Khorne, the next book is Nurgle. They are probably releasing the Nugle minis because they are getting onto the next thing, which seems to be Orks. After that maybe Dark Eldar and Necrons are going to get some cool stuff.

I hope I get my copy soon, although I'm not realistically expecting it until almost 2009 even though I pre-ordered it the day it came out.

Sadly, I don't expect to get any use out of the book with respect to units or lists, it looks like my expectations of FW not bothering to update or adjust the IG list hold true (do we really need Die Hards still, really?) although I still look forward to the fluff and Apoc stuff, so long as its better than IA Apoc was (glad I didn't buy that PoS)

IA Apocalypse is nothing more than a quick cash in and it would have been a good product, if only they had taken the time to proof read it a few times. I've got one of the first copies and it is a typo ridden mess that needed a massive FAQ to correct everything miss-worded, left out or needlessly put in due to copy-pasta.

bubber wrote:The weird thing about this book is that some of the entries appear to be based on 5th ed rules but the Krieg engineers still have the 'Die Hards' rule (ignore -Ld modifiers for being outnumbered in cc) which is no longer relevant - and cost 5points per squad!

What did I just say? Copy/Paste is Warrick's fav thing in the whole world.

BrookM wrote:IA Apocalypse is nothing more than a quick cash in and it would have been a good product, if only they had taken the time to proof read it a few times.

Don't you mean proof-read it at all. I downloaded IA Apoc because, after seeing a friend's copy, I didn't want to waste the money. There are things in that book that Microsoft Word would pick up first time around by itself, without help from a human. Ditto goes for IA3, a book that I love, but it's so terribly written and full of so many obvious mistakes that it's laughable it made it to the printers. FW can hardly be rushed writing 1 book a year.

BYE

BrookM wrote:At times even the written work of FW suffers as much as their casting qualities. I like the background of their IA books, but they are typo riddled and sometimes of questionable writ.

I've personally not had any trouble with FW casting, although I've only bought a handful of things off of them. One or two of the things of the Cadian accessory pack needed a touch-up with Green Stuff, but I was more than happy with the quality of the models themselves to do that. Heh, one of my housemates has had more trouble with the GW plastic kits he's bought - a Chimera hull which the plastic hadn't gone into the mould properly, and then the same problem with a Hammerhead rail gun. Although in the latter case he'd got a Sky Ray sprue in the kit too, so it's not all bad.

The books do seem somewhat full of typos, though.

Don't buy anything thin from them. It'll either be shaped like a banana and/or be snaptastic.

Death By Monkeys wrote:So what do the rules for the mole launcher look like? (No specific numbers necessary - just the general description of how it works.)

you place a marker anywhere on the battle field. then measure. if within 12-24" then the blast happens in your next shooting phase; if within 12" it happens in the current phase; if over 24" the shot is lost. it's a medium strength blast with a mediocre AP. could be used to block off a means of advance, esp now the partial rule is gone.

now i've done further reading, another blip has been found. in the 40K non-apoc scenario, it mentions that all imperials on the field are hit with a chemical blast on a 4+ and is resolved exactly as a normal chemical blast. however i can't find what a normal chemical blast is! unless it's like the Krieg engineer's gas grenades....
this scenario is also virtually all made up from plague marines - go figure!?!

also missed to mention - you can field beastman squads and a mutant rabble (just like a workers rabble from the first book).

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrookM wrote:IA Apocalypse is nothing more than a quick cash in and it would have been a good product, if only they had taken the time to proof read it a few times.

Don't you mean proof-read it at all. I downloaded IA Apoc because, after seeing a friend's copy, I didn't want to waste the money. There are things in that book that Microsoft Word would pick up first time around by itself, without help from a human. Ditto goes for IA3, a book that I love, but it's so terribly written and full of so many obvious mistakes that it's laughable it made it to the printers. FW can hardly be rushed writing 1 book a year.

When it comes to anything other than sculpting models, Forge World is absolutely hopeless. The text on each and every IA book has more obvious errors than any other gaming product I've ever had the displeasure to read, including small-press stuff. I can only assume it's all a part of the same haphazard and careless attitude Games Workshop as a whole embodies so perfectly.

I hate agreeing with you on anything, H.B.M.C., but frankly, I despise Forge World even more. Their miniatures are expensive, and they're still only the only thing worth crap that they produce.

Maybe they could use some volunteer help with editing and rules development. Someone willing to make a big hours commitment (and how many hours do we waste on stuff like this board anyways?) could make a serious difference there, if the FW guys will accept a bit of free help.

I nominate yakface, whose name recognition for rules fixes might help him get into such a position. Yak, whaddaya think?

Agamemnon2 wrote:I hate agreeing with you on anything, H.B.M.C.

Let's stop and discuss this for a second.

Now, Aga, I don't know you from Adam, so why is it that you 'hate' agreeing with me? What exactly have I ever done to you?

BYE

bubber wrote:
the reaver is not 1250 - it's 1450!

Well thanks for the reply. I suppose even Forgeworld realised that the Reaver was grossly underpriced, and nudged it slightly in the right direction. 1450 is still too cheap, but now the points cost is merely 'thoroughly wrong' rather than 'farcical'.

This is assuming the titan rules are indeed copy pasted. Much of the work is already done for the weapons, though the Reaver was supposed to get a 'downgraded' volcano cannon. The one on the datasheet appeared to be full strength to me, though I dont have an Apocalypse book handy to check.

What Imperial titans need are more snesible rules regarding carapace mounts. unless you take the multi launcher (conveniently the gun provided) the minimum range penalty takes up half the range of the weapon. I agree with a minimum range, but it should be shorter, much shorter, as 40K is not supposed to represent 1:1 ground scale.

I didn't really read the Reaver rules when FW released the first version - what was wrong with it exactly? Why was it underpriced? 1250 is a fair cop, and an extra 200 points on top of that is pretty hefty as well.

Heavy 6 Battlecannons aren't that good and a Warhound can get more Strength D weapons.

So what made it so good?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:I didn't really read the Reaver rules when FW released the first version - what was wrong with it exactly? Why was it underpriced? 1250 is a fair cop, and an extra 200 points on top of that is pretty hefty as well.

Heavy 6 Battlecannons aren't that good and a Warhound can get more Strength D weapons.

So what made it so good?

BYE

Off the top of my head, the fact that it mounted Warlord or only (very) slightly downgraded versions of Warlord weapons.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I didn't really read the Reaver rules when FW released the first version - what was wrong with it exactly? Why was it underpriced? 1250 is a fair cop, and an extra 200 points on top of that is pretty hefty as well.

Heavy 6 Battlecannons aren't that good and a Warhound can get more Strength D weapons.

So what made it so good?

BYE

Is this sarcasm H.B.M.C.?

I will answer at face value.

The Reaver has 6 astructure points and four void shields, this is very reasonably survivable. it would be easy and not unfair to say that resilince and staying power is double that of a Warhound, or two thirds that of a Warlord. This should put the price in the 1500pt mark assuming the guns remained in balance. Mobility not being an issue, as thw Warhound is not significantly faster in terms of in-game use.

However the guns are not in balance. Warhounds have two minor titan guns, admittedly not with minimum range penalties. Warlords get two minor titan guns with minimum range panatlies and two major guns. The reaver only misses on on one minor gun and has the full choice of minor titan weaponry with the inclusion ofthe Apocalypse launcher and the vortex missile, neither of which the Warhound can take.

For the major weapons, some are reserved for the Warlord, namely the Quake cannon, Plasma Destructor and Wrecker Ball. The Pllasma Destructior is nasty, but you can live without it. the wrecker ball is just yet another titan close combat weapin, and the rules for those have been messed up beyond belief. The titan ccws have no anti infantry capability, or even anti (normal sized vehicle). Power first are supposed by be able to rake the ground or scoop up tanks. Neither do the titan ccws get any secondary guns. Some editions of epic had short ranged firepower mounted in the knuckles or similar. Probably approximate to four heavy bolters, by my own guess. a booby prize for when you cannot use the weapon in its primary mode.
Now admittedly the denial of the quake cannon is a disadvantage. Quake cannon are very nasty guns, ultra long range, 10" templates, two shots and S10. the Reaver envies this gun. However let us see what they do get. really there are seven reasonable and semi-reasonable options:

Passable choices:
These weapons will do from time to time.

Carapace mounted Turbo Laser Destructors. In case you want to max out your Strength D attacks. Fully optimsed you can have eight strength D 5" pie plates. Double not 50% more than the maxed out destructive yield of a Warhound. I dont recommend this though, it would be boring as hell, and the minmimum range is a problem, I mentioned this only to compare optimised firepower.

Carapace mounted Vortex Missile. I don't recommend the Vortex missile at all, none of the Imperial titans can afford to miss out on a gun. However a Vortex missile and two volcano cannon will allow your titan to launch a very long range 'alpha strike' on enemy titans or other capital units. This could with a modicum of luck pay back the points value of the titan in a single turn blowing up opposing super heavy or gargantuan gcreatures.

Arm mounted Titan Close combat Weapon. the best way to kill a super heavy with a single weapon on a single turn. Pity that means you have to walk up to it (and run the gauntlet of meltaguns or whatever else the enemy can throw at you). its an attack your enemy can see a mile off and will normally avoid. a titan ccw is an area denial weapon with a short area and limited target parameters. Fun though, but not worth losing a big gun for.

Good options:

Now we are talking about the weapons you should arm your titan with. indidentally the current Forgeowlrd kit is armed with three of the four weapons listed here.

Arm mounted Gatling Blaster: Of the four this is the one you can more easily do without. A heavy 6 battlecannon is very nice, especially as it would cost a lot more to buy six minimum Russ than it would to pay for half the titan. However it lacks the extra of the other choices.

Carapace mounted Apocalypse launcher. A slightly weaker version of the Gatling blaster with one less pie plate. Sounds inferior but it isnt. Because the missile launcher has a very long range and counts as a minor titan weapon, it does have a minimum range penalty, but the carapace mount forces that anyway, so you lose nothing. Also you use the clover template, which has better results than normal scatter, let alone being easier to handle. With this weapon option you have no reason to mount your carapace with anything else. Most Armorcast and all Forgeworld Reavers agree. Ideally with this gun you can also forgo the Gatling Blaster and take more intense guns for the arms.

Arm mounted laser blaster. A turbo laser derstructor with three shots. There isnt much more to say here. always take at least one.

Arm mounted volcano cannon. You forfeit the three shot salvo of the laser blaster but trade that for very long rangfe and a 10" blast. Frankly I think this is worth it.



Now let us look at the three recommended options:

Two laser blasters and apocalypse launcher (minimaxed Forgeworld titan)
laser blaster, gatling blaster and apocalypse launcher (balanced Forgeworld titan)
or
Volcano cannon, laser blaster and Apocalypse launcher (role-optimised titan)

The first two are the Reaver titans as currecntly sold, and are thus not onmly near optimised but most relevant to the Forgeworld price. The Volcano cannon variant is IMHO marginally better but should not effect unit value.

Do these three options mark 'double or more that firepower of a Warhound? I would have to answer with a resounding yes, even if you maxed out a warhound with two turbo lasers. The third optiion, my favourite, offers four Strength D shots, as many as a Warhound could possibly have, but still has an additional five S7 pie platres for anti infantry roles. Furtherrmore two of the three weapons have extraordinary long reach and the total footprint of the weapons fired exheeds that of a Warhound with two plasma blastguns on double fire 7" blast mode. the bonus range is very very important, not only for sniping super heavies before they have a chance to fire themselves, but also to clear away enemy heavy weaponsd infantyry, which are the real threat to a super heavy. While as Warhound will have difficulty clearing out its engagmetn range of enemy lascannon the Reaver will have no problesm, even if the gatling blaster is left off the titan.

Bello f Lost Souls estimated 1500pts for a reaver titan, with three minor titan guns. This price matcvhes the Epic Reavers in comparison to Warlords and Warhounds. Forgeworld broke the background of the titan by allowing heavy titan guns to be used on Reaver arm mounts. This is worth an extra 100pts per gun minimum.

I would estimate the true value of a Reaver at 1600pts-1850pts on the outside ends of an acceptable price, and 1750pts being my estimate of its true value.

Orlanth wrote:Is this sarcasm H.B.M.C.?

No, no. Honest question. I didn't pay much attention to the first release of the rules, so I wasn't sure what the problem was.

I didn't know the Reaver could get a Volcano Cannon.

Generally speaking, twice the toughness of a Warhound isn't that impressive as the Warhound isn't that impressive to begin with. Super-Heavies are generally overcosted and people fear them more than they should (like people fear the Hellhound). The Baneblade is a good example, a 650 point tank that's worth 450.

Now I have no experience using Titans except for Eldar Revenants, so maybe there are other factors I am not aware of, such as their size or movement abilities (and I haven't really considered the Void Shields). I know that the Revenants are overpowered because of their 4+ save, but the part that's 'broken' with them is not the fault of the Titan, but more the fault of the concept of Strength D weapons. Unfortunately, they've set the ceiling for Strength D too low. Volcano Cannons should be Strength D, but not Pulsars or Turbo-Laser Destructors.

If we ignore the triple-barelled thing for a moment, and say it had a Gatling Launcher, Apoc Missile Launcher and Volcano Cannon, would it be such a big deal?

BYE

Actually, as a minor quibble, the Forgeworld Reaver Experimental rules have the volcano as a 7" blast.