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Well, I think Ork hordes have good chances.
Stelek's army with 7 LRs good as are CSM builds.

Im suprised no one is even talkin about the Jetseer councils of doom. They are the most survivable unit in the game. They mow through orks like a knife through butter. Same with land raiders. I mean 2 full squads backed up by fire prisms and a few troops in bright lance serpents. Maybe add some banshees for the things in combat that the councils cant deal with.

With the psychic hood being nerfed to 24 inchs means that the councils can sit back and wait for the fire prisms and wave serpents to kill the librarian and then move in and wipe everything else out.

It might not be the winning list, but I think it will be top 5 for sure.
It has an answer for everything:
Chaos Builds(ROW) check
Ork Hoard(Seer councils) check
Land Raider Spam(Bright Lance, Fire Prism, Seer Councils) Maybe not fully checked but this list has a chance where most lists just dont.
New Marines(They are overpriced and Doomed squads die just as easy to shuriken catapults as everything else)
Half way checked because Steleks Drop pod Librarian army is just that nasty. They deny me psychic powers, but I ROW them so they basically cancel each other out.

So Jetseer council List has all the tools to take care of all the lists. I think that is more than most of the competative builds out there. Unless you have Psychic defence like Marines or deamon hunters you are pretty much done. And even if you have them this list has a chance.

BTW ORKS are not that good. We had 2 huge hoards in my ardboys tourney and neither made it to the semi's. The horde at 2500 points is just not that hard to shoot to death bit by bit.

40kenthusiast wrote:Haven't we already had this discussion? How did it get over ten replies with no one mentioning orks? I feel like I'm playing an entirely seperate game from everyone sometime. Orks have the best odds at winning the 'Ardboyz tournament, because its the best codex and it scales adequately.

I thought this was laughable.

Then I saw this.

ShumaGorath wrote:Orks all the way. They have the volume of players and the easy beardiness of lists.

Orks get destroyed at 2k points.

I can bring how many vehicles you can't touch? 6? 7?

SWEET.

I can tank shock you off objectives and fry you around mine, and score everything and you get zero kill points?

SWEET.

Please, play some actual games with Orks at 2500 points.

Gee, it's 3 lootas, 6 boyz, 3 stormboyz...and it gets destroyed by land raiders.

Nob Bikers are neat in their own way, then they get tank shocked and run away.

Sad day.

Orks win because you think they are great, the best, blah blah.

They're just another Codex you haven't figured out how to beat yet.

Hope you catch up soon, Marines will be out and when you try to squeeze in your army between 200 weaksauce guys and 50 hardcore guys...you're gonna have serious issues with your rock/paper/scissors theory.

I can bring how many vehicles you can't touch? 6? 7?

You're also one guy playing a list that is quite uncommon in a tournament format that you could easily lose despite never having played the winner. Hell, you could get crushed by a massively antitank tau player for a fourth place finish and let that ork player simply crush EVERYONE GOD DAMN ELSE. Please. You're not some sort of bizzare boss fight of the ard boyz tourny, and you should know that. Sorry about your M Bison marines not getting to be in everyones seventh round but thats not how this works. So you have a good list that does very well against a single popular variant list and pretty well against others. You can still be easily beaten in overall score by an Ork player that simply manages to beat every other army that has not been designed specifically to defeat it.

Hope you catch up soon, Marines will be out and when you try to squeeze in your army between 200 weaksauce guys and 50 hardcore guys...you're gonna have serious issues with your rock/paper/scissors theory.

I play mixforce tyranids. Just for reference. Cause, you kinda sound like you think I'm some sort of slavering Ork fanboi. Seven land raiders? Thats cute. I have a friend in the second round of the tourny running 20+ lascannons, 10+ meltaguns. 2 demolisher canons, and enough small arms firepower to pretty reliably kill a couple of marine squads in a game. Its fun picking our ideally suited opponents and pretending that thats all we are going to fight isn't it?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
I can bring how many vehicles you can't touch? 6? 7?

You're also one guy playing a list that is quite uncommon in a tournament format that you could easily lose despite never having played the winner. Hell, you could get crushed by a massively antitank tau player for a fourth place finish and let that ork player simply crush EVERYONE GOD DAMN ELSE. Please. You're not some sort of bizzare boss fight of the ard boyz tourny, and you should know that. Sorry about your M Bison marines not getting to be in everyones seventh round but thats not how this works. So you have a good list that does very well against a single popular variant list and pretty well against others. You can still be easily beaten in overall score by an Ork player that simply manages to beat every other army that has not been designed specifically to defeat it.

When you say massively anti-tank Tau, do you mean 9 broadsides? I win that fight too. Do you even play?

I don't even know what the Street Fighter reference is for, just to rant wildly? Good job, I guess.

Orks aren't beatable, and when 5 Redeemer/Crusader Marine armies show up at the finals--Orks are done.

Don't think so? At 2500 points? Gotta be kidding me.

Yes, really done. Anyway, you sound really "angry" over nothing. Did I injure your epeen or something by saying Orks aren't the be-all end-all?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
Hope you catch up soon, Marines will be out and when you try to squeeze in your army between 200 weaksauce guys and 50 hardcore guys...you're gonna have serious issues with your rock/paper/scissors theory.

I play mixforce tyranids. Just for reference. Cause, you kinda sound like you think I'm some sort of slavering Ork fanboi. Seven land raiders? Thats cute. I have a friend in the second round of the tourny running 20+ lascannons, 10+ meltaguns. 2 demolisher canons, and enough small arms firepower to pretty reliably kill a couple of marine squads in a game. Its fun picking our ideally suited opponents and pretending that thats all we are going to fight isn't it?

20+ lascannons and 10 meltaguns? How quaint.

Call me when it's 20 dark lances and 20 disintegrators.

i.e. Call when it's an effective army, not junk tossed together and called a good army (fyi, lascannons are BAD in 5th edition...clue your friend in--he got past the noobs in round 1, now it's time for real competition, hate to say).

I can run that land raider list up a tyranid players arse too, and they can do squat. Go ahead, "get me" with your dakkafaxes, your stealers, and your flyrants.

It rolls guard, marines, chaos, orks, necrons...wait, it rolls EVERYONE because NO ONE can kill that many tanks AND actually kill anything else.

Only Dark Eldar can beat the crap out of it AND still beat the crap out of other armies.

Good tournament players are aware of this shift in gameplay.

I'm just trying to enlighten everyone, sorry I offended you.

worsed list ive played is a 5 LR DH army, not enough turns, not enough terrain to hide in
tankbustas killed 2 in CC, deffkoptas with a buzzsaw killed another.
nob bikerz with klaw killed the 4th.
the last one survived and spent the whole game pissing me off with random lascannon shots.
even took a shot at my grots, and despite being TL, missed both times 0_o
i think the kid was just bugged that the grots killed his brother captain XD
(30 shots a turn for 3 turns, had to get some result)

screwed up the quote stelek

and do you mean dakkafexes?


an AC army is easy enough to beat, in objective games its even easier.
just not enough fire power and too many units these days can shoot from one table edge to the other and kill them in a few turns

Dark Eldar?

JD21290 wrote:worsed list ive played is a 5 LR DH army, not enough turns, not enough terrain to hide in
tankbustas killed 2 in CC, deffkoptas with a buzzsaw killed another.
nob bikerz with klaw killed the 4th.

How the hell did a deffkopta kill a landraider with a buzzsaw? They're str3 so on the charge with their buzzsaw they'd be STR7. Rear armor of a LR is 14 so they'd have to roll a 7 to glance.

JD21290 wrote:screwed up the quote stelek

and do you mean dakkafexes?


an AC army is easy enough to beat, in objective games its even easier.
just not enough fire power and too many units these days can shoot from one table edge to the other and kill them in a few turns

If you mean rail rifles, yes.

If you mean anything else, way wrong.

Stelek wrote:
Yes, really done. Anyway, you sound really "angry" over nothing. Did I injure your epeen or something by saying Orks aren't the be-all end-all?


I'm just trying to enlighten everyone, sorry I offended you.

You're not sorry at all. I find you very offensive. You're not trying to enlighten anyone. You're trying to show off by being a know it all and you're very rude on top of it. I find your arrogance irritating not enlightening. So why don't you grow up and have a civil discussion without putting everyone else down who has something to offer. And while you're at it, take a nice dose of humbleness. Because you are not nearly as clever as you think you are.

So, that's two for nerd raging is appropriate?

Anyone else want to explain how Orks blow away multiple Land Raiders?

Still waiting to hear how Orks fare so poorly againt Black Templars yet are still regarded as "the best" by so many.

Perhaps that should be "so few"?

Because like twelve people play black templars. Thats why. You will not win because an ork player will score higher than you and will never even play a black templar army.

Lol..another Stelek vs the World thread.

Yes, he's horribly uncivil, put most of what he says is true. I'm sure part of him revels in the chaos he creates, but when you think you're right, you're not going to get anywhere convincing people by pandering to their misguided thoughts. He'll layout his reasoning, smash yours, and be done with it.

Looking at a spammed LR army with flamer troops inside, I think it's a very tough list for just about any army. He mentioned DE being a viable threat, but that won't happen...too few DE players, and too many hordes to worry about for DL spam to be effective in general competition.

Stelek may be correct about orks not being able to handle 6-7 Land Raider Armies....but....

LR armies dont have the sheer killing power of ork armies. SOOOO....

...Orks dont have to worry about meeting LR armies, because orks are Top Teir and All LR armies are not.

You might win all your games with an All LR list, but you wont decimate your opponent as you might with an ork army, one that has lots of killing ability and is well made/run.

Orks have more opportunity to "Win Big" than a LR list will. You might win all your games with a LR list, but if an ork wins all HIS games, he's going to win bigger.

Orks have a much better chance of taking it all. LR lists are gimmicky lists, they wont take the 'Ard Boyz final.

He'stan marines will beat orcs with lots of twin linked flamers and have the twin-linked melta's to kill everyone else's tanks. Null zone librarian thrown in for council. Stir in pot. Enjoy.

Honestly, until we see the missions its all heresay. The missions could screw orcs. The missions could screw 7 land raiders. Who knows.

Beerfart wrote:Stelek may be correct about orks not being able to handle 6-7 Land Raider Armies....but....

LR armies dont have the sheer killing power of ork armies. SOOOO....

...Orks dont have to worry about meeting LR armies, because orks are Top Teir and All LR armies are not.

You might win all your games with an All LR list, but you wont decimate your opponent as you might with an ork army, one that has lots of killing ability and is well made/run.

Orks have more opportunity to "Win Big" than a LR list will. You might win all your games with a LR list, but if an ork wins all HIS games, he's going to win bigger.

Orks have a much better chance of taking it all. LR lists are gimmicky lists, they wont take the 'Ard Boyz final.

Actually, it's 95% of the armies being run that can't handle LR armies.

LR armies do indeed have the killing power of Ork armies.

When you run into 5 Redeemers annihilating your army, don't cry for mommy k?

LR armies, sad to say, are indeed 'top tier'.

Hmmm I tried 5 different Ork players with my LR army. (Among quite a few other armies.)

Only Eldar with resilient units like Wraithguard and Councils lasted against it. Dark Eldar crushed my head in, but most people don't own them and I've seen few DE armies that are built properly or run well.

I tabled all the Ork players willing to play me, along with most of the other armies.

Not sure how an Ork player is going to win bigger, given the scenarios don't really help them "win big"--no more than any other army.

LR lists aren't gimmicky. 180 Orks, now that's gimmicky. Sadly, I don't know if anyone is ever going to get that...

Stelek wrote:Actually, it's 95% of the armies being run that can't handle LR armies.

When you run into 5 Redeemers annihilating your army, don't cry for mommy k?

Hmmm I tried 5 different Ork players with my LR army. (Among quite a few other armies.)

I tabled all the Ork players willing to play me, along with most of the other armies.

Are you able to read? Oh, sorry, I guess your ego got in the way and you didnt read my full post.

I just said that Orks would probably have trouble with that army.

95%? I guess Space marine drop pod lists featuring lots of melta cannot handle it eh? Perhaps RR mech featuring lots of melta? We never see those lists at tournements. Your land raiders wont survive an encounter with armies like that...and there are plenty of them out there....especially after sternguard become commonplace. 6-7 LR's become 6-7 burning wrecks after encountering a drop pod list out of the new Codex (or even light mech). Good luck wasting all of those marines that drop in front of you with combi and regular melta's with your 2 Inquisitor units....not gonna happen.

But you're right, your raiders are safe, Drop pod and mechanised marines do indeed account for only 5% of the armies out there, especially with this really poorly written marine codex.

When someone actually WINS BIG at a tournement with 7 landraiders we'll know I was wrong. Until then I think we'll CONTINUE to see Orks frequently on top of the pile, WINNING TOURNEYS.

Arent you due to keep ruining someones podcast? I think we've had enough bad advice for one night.

Not sure how an Ork player is going to win bigger, given the scenarios don't really help them "win big"--no more than any other army.

Well, Orks and LR armies have both the potential to annihilate enemies.

Beer, you talking is like watching a train wreck in slow mo.

Painful, sorrowful, yet incredibly boring.

Stelek wrote:Beer, you talking is like watching a train wreck in slow mo.

Painful, sorrowful, yet incredibly boring.

Agree with the land raider list, because to best that list you have to be taliored to beat it, and the land raider list can beat other stuff too.

Sadly, horde Orks have become a little too mainstream to win it all. Whatever army does it will probably be one similar to Stelek's. A hunk of gorgonzola few people have ever thought of, and very, very few have played against. After 1 or possibly 2 games against horde orks, both players know just what to expect, and the opponent will have some plan for dealing with the army. I'm not saying 7 landraiders is unbeatable, anymore than 180 boyz are unbeatable.

It does take a drastic change in tactics and army list to do so. In the confines of an 'Ard boyz tournament, I don't think even a comparative player will be able to adapt to such a bizarre challenge quickly enough to play at their normal level. Thus, by taking something no one expects you can expect to make your opponent play more poorly than he would be able to against a conventional threat like horde Orks. Whatever wins it will have enough shock value to throw off the other player, as well as the stopping power to down their army.

Of course, you'll also need the luck to avoid the foil to your hyper specialized list.

Yes, he's horribly uncivil, put most of what he says is true. I'm sure part of him revels in the chaos he creates, but when you think you're right, you're not going to get anywhere convincing people by pandering to their misguided thoughts. He'll layout his reasoning, smash yours, and be done with it.

It goes a little more along the lines of shout his reasoning, but not fully cover any one angle of it. Loudly insult anyone with a moderate or conflicting opinion, then laugh and proclaim that he has won the argument.

Basically he argues with all the force and skill of a four year old that really wants that toy on the shelf.

The new marines may fit that category, as they're so new that people may not have all the potential builds mapped out. Lots of potentially powerful builds, little time to wargame and prepare...at least some people will go into the tournament having heard of the landraider spam option.

right, enough debate. Some rules.

Number 1: I R_ W I N
number 2: Acknowledge rule 1

but seriously, my monies on the space marines :S

Stelek wrote:Beer, you talking is like watching a train wreck in slow mo.

Painful, sorrowful, yet incredibly boring.

Yea, and reading your ideas on strategies/tactics is like masturbating with a cheese grater....

Mildly amusing, but mostly painful.

I just got my hands on the new marine codex and sat down to plan out my next project which is white scars. I was playing around with a build for ard boys and i came up with this. It would own a land raider spam list with alot of move 12 and fire 24 inches melta loving. Can even shoot orks up pretty good and then get stuck in combat with str 3 against T 5.
Here it is:

HQ

205
Khan
135
Chaplin on bike
320
Command squad w/ 3 storm shields 2 PF and Champion

TROOPS
265
7 Bikes w/PF and dual flamers
1 attack bike
290
8 Bikes W/PF and dual flamers
1 attack bike
235
5 Bikes W/ Dual melta PF
1 Attack bike w/ Multi Melta
235
5 bikes w/ Dual Melta PF
1 Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta
255
7 Bikes w/ Dual Flamers and PW
1 Attack bike
255
7 Bikes w/ Dual Flamers and PW
1 Attack bike

FAST ATTACK

120
3 Attack Bikes
100
2 attack bikes w/ multi melta
100
2 Attack Bikes W/ Multi melta

Thats 59 Bikes with 13 attack bikes. 6 of them have multi meltas broke into 4 squads. Its like a Marine should be. Able to move 12 rapid fire and assualt 6 with toughness 5. And you can have 2 specials per squad. And I can combat squad stuff too to split up the fun. All that combined with the uber command squad.
They are all T5 w/ FNP and there is 3 3++ and 2 4++ models in the unit. All attacks reroll to hit on charge w/ furious charge and hit and run. This unit can hit you, survive long enough to disingage in your turn and then hit you again. They are just nasty.
Help me pick this list appart and find its weaknesses. I can't seem to see any.

Give it up, you cannot beat the LR spam list....

....whats the point in trying?

You know what will be fun? Going to 'Ard boyz and playing against 50 or so LR spam armies! I mean, nothing can beat them, so why would anyone bring anything else?

I should gather up everyone's Land Raiders at my FLGS to give myself a test game against the LR spam just to see how I do. Stelek thinks I'd be dead, but I dunno, so many long range Gauss, I think I could give em a run for their money at least.