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Here's another cold hard fact.

Even if we assume that orks ARE broken and mega-easy to win with, people will STILL be bringing them to tournements in the most broken lists they can possibly come up with in order to win, and theres only two things people can do about it...

1) Nothing

2)...and like it.

Its sink or swim, get over your fear of orks and adapt, or resign to losing.

ghostmaker wrote:Orks arent that hard to beat. you just got to out think them hahah. The LR spam can be beating by Drop IG and other things not easy it's a tough list but not unbeatable.

Just my 2 cents

The problem with that is that most drop IG squads are very small, and if I recall the theoretical LR list properly, one or more have Inqs with mystics onboard. You get a landraider with the right weapon loadout nearby to fire at the deepstrikers first, and they may never get a chance to shoot those melta weapons.

without a doubt 7 landraiders is the toughest list out there.
3 crusaders and 4 regular.

Orks struggle with one landraider let alone 7.

good ork players kill 7 Land raiders easily...

you have 180 ork boyz. Ghazgull and a KFF mek. With good positioning all of your boyz get cover saves as well as a nob with a klaw and 2 of your units get rokkits. this means you have 6 rokkit shots per turn that... while not veyr likely to do much... can immobilize a raider for your nobs to pop. not to mention Ghazzie with his str 10 fist attacks. You can get this at 1750 pts.

what do you do with the rest? I think its obvious. Snikrot + 2 burnas in a unit... this will also kill a LR on the charge. 6 attacks with str 4 and 2d6 armor pen has a shot at doing something. that still leaves you with almost 500 pts to play with...

that means you have 6 str 9 pKs on the charge, 1 ghazzie, 2 burnas and 6 rokkits.... doesn't sound like much but if you're thinking this can't stop 7 LRs your dead wrong.

3 LR cruisadiers 4 LRs.
Turn 1: 7 LRs shoot.
16 TL assault cannon shots = 8 dead orks
9 TL HB shots = 4 dead orks
6 TL lascannon shots = 3 dead orks
Total dead 15. Orks still fearless...

Orks go and move up/run.

Turn 2: Cuisaders in range for hurricane bolters.
but you need to move to not get assaulted next turn
you kill off the one mob at 15. gj.

Orks go. they move up and run. if in range they waaaaaagh and assault. your raiders moved 6 inches they need 4's to hit. 5 pks on nobs = 20 attacks @ str 9
10 hits 1 glance 2 pen = 1 dead land raider and one disabled LR.
Ghazzie attacks 6 on the charge 3 hits 1 glance 2 pen 1 dead Raider.
Mind you I am ignoring the fact there is another 500pts left of orks SHOOTING at you.

Turn 3 you try to fight them off as best you can but turn 2 repeats itself and you lose to more raiders AND the stuff inside that comes out during the explosion.

turn 4 half your army is gone, the orks are weaker but they are still winning the attrition war... turn 2 repeats itself.

Seriously orks do NOT struggle with LRs unless they are shooting at them and if you are an ork shooting at a LR you need to get yourself some nobs with klaws. THATS how orks deal with armor.

Not disagreeing that orks can kill 7 land raiders, but they don't get 2D6 penetration with burnas anymore.

frgsinwntr wrote:good ork players kill 7 Land raiders easily...

you have 180 ork boyz. Ghazgull and a KFF mek. With good positioning all of your boyz get cover saves as well as a nob with a klaw and 2 of your units get rokkits. this means you have 6 rokkit shots per turn that... while not veyr likely to do much... can immobilize a raider for your nobs to pop. not to mention Ghazzie with his str 10 fist attacks. You can get this at 1750 pts.

what do you do with the rest? I think its obvious. Snikrot + 2 burnas in a unit... this will also kill a LR on the charge. 6 attacks with str 4 and 2d6 armor pen has a shot at doing something. that still leaves you with almost 500 pts to play with...

that means you have 6 str 9 pKs on the charge, 1 ghazzie, 2 burnas and 6 rokkits.... doesn't sound like much but if you're thinking this can't stop 7 LRs your dead wrong.

3 LR cruisadiers 4 LRs.
Turn 1: 7 LRs shoot.
16 TL assault cannon shots = 8 dead orks
9 TL HB shots = 4 dead orks
6 TL lascannon shots = 3 dead orks
Total dead 15. Orks still fearless...

Orks go and move up/run.

Turn 2: Cuisaders in range for hurricane bolters.
but you need to move to not get assaulted next turn
you kill off the one mob at 15. gj.

Orks go. they move up and run. if in range they waaaaaagh and assault. your raiders moved 6 inches they need 4's to hit. 5 pks on nobs = 20 attacks @ str 9
10 hits 1 glance 2 pen = 1 dead land raider and one disabled LR.
Ghazzie attacks 6 on the charge 3 hits 1 glance 2 pen 1 dead Raider.
Mind you I am ignoring the fact there is another 500pts left of orks SHOOTING at you.

Turn 3 you try to fight them off as best you can but turn 2 repeats itself and you lose to more raiders AND the stuff inside that comes out during the explosion.

turn 4 half your army is gone, the orks are weaker but they are still winning the attrition war... turn 2 repeats itself.

Seriously orks do NOT struggle with LRs unless they are shooting at them and if you are an ork shooting at a LR you need to get yourself some nobs with klaws. THATS how orks deal with armor.

Dont forget that inside each land raider is a squad with 2 flamers. That is a lot of dead orcs. Also he could just run regular land raiders at you and let you try and kill them while the crusaders decimate squads left and right. Plus you can move a land raider crusader 12 inches and still fire the hurricanne bolters and the assualt cannon, so you need 6's to hit it in combat. Orcs could get owned by 7 land raiders more often then not. Play and find out.

Question, do you think the Redeemers are even better than the Crusaders?

EmperorsGrandson wrote:

Dont forget that inside each land raider is a squad with 2 flamers. That is a lot of dead orcs. Also he could just run regular land raiders at you and let you try and kill them while the crusaders decimate squads left and right. Plus you can move a land raider crusader 12 inches and still fire the hurricanne bolters and the assualt cannon, so you need 6's to hit it in combat. Orcs could get owned by 7 land raiders more often then not. Play and find out.

You'd be nuts to get out... but no I didn't know that they could move 12 and still fire them. that makes the math a little different.. but then like I said you have the other 500pts in the ork army shooting

Hey... has anyone calculated the points total for 7 raiders?

Unless I am very wrong, which happens very often, you simply don't have enough points to make the things in the raiders worth anything.

Shrike78 wrote:Hey... has anyone calculated the points total for 7 raiders?

Unless I am very wrong, which happens very often, you simply don't have enough points to make the things in the raiders worth anything.

Here's the list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/217981.page

Here's game 1: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218131.page
Here's game 2: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218133.page
Here's game 3: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218134.page

I still say that Armoured company will win the tourney if anyone takes it.

Around 15 front armour 14 tanks that give out 12ish large blast templates, 9 HB shots on each russ. Perhaps make three of those demolisher russes for armour hunting in a pinch. Then another three hellhounds to add insult to injury if you think your Orks are smart for being behind cover. Add a bassy for flavoring.

All in 2500 points...

Yeah...I really don't see anything being as broken as that. Sure you have to table your opponent to win most games, but if they have anything left, you tank shock the hell out of them with three tanks at a time to move them far enough away so they cannot even contest an objective. Tabling an opponent shouldnt really be a huge issue. Perhaps one or two armies will give them a run for their money, but my money is still on AC.

Jesus, I hope I can gather enough russes by this saturday.

Drop Ig would do fine. I'd ask my enemy whats in each landraider and if mystics then I'd go a lil more away from it. And shoot it with Lascannons from my Sent's.

It's all easy to get around with Drop.
Orks arent hard to beat espcially at this high of pts lvl.
I've beaten them with Drop IG.

But I think Raider Rush With BT and or DH will do just fine in hard boyz

I think a well-made marine list would do amazingly well. And I don't just mean 30 sternguard spam with pedro.

Here's what I think a good marine army would have:

One of the special characters. Pick one, any, they've all got something to offer. Probably Vulkan.

Librarian or Chaplain, depending on preference. Probably Librarian for utility and support.

Thunder Hammer terminators. These things can kill anything in assault fairly easily bar monoliths or landraiders, and are incredibly tough. This is where the chaplain would go, if they went with him.

Sternguard - these guys are too cool to pass up. Stick them in a drop pod or a rhino, or combat squad them.

Either more sternguard or a venerable dreadnought - while the dread is often overlooked, it's incredibly useful in many situations. What, those Khorne berserkers have a champion with a power weapon and a lord with daemon weapon? Here, chew on this dread, hope you roll 6's to hit, 6's to glance with your krak grenades and do enough damage for me to care. See also: Bloodletters, any other scary-against-only-infantry unit. Dreads take care of those.

Lots of tactical marines. I mean lots. They're amazing, and can take incredibly good weapon loadouts. Flamer/missle with combat squads for some, maybe with multimeltas instead, and other weapon loadouts depending on preference.

Scouts in their speeder - drop armies aren't very common - but they can be very deadly, and more importantly they're next to useless if they can't manage to get the drops they need. The signal jammer would do well, and doesn't cost much especially at 2500.

Landraiders - they're just amazing in 5th. A Crusader carrying terminators or the redeemer carrying sternguard or something.


While sternguard are good, and Pedro obviously makes them even more useful, we all know that combined arms lists work much better than "I spam this and kill you hurr". provided they're run correctly. With marines, you have a plethora of GOOD units that are SOLID by themselves, that are now ALSO working in unison, and that's a recipe for death.

Even the LR spam army is a combined arms list - mystics, flamer units, etc. are all necessary. 7 LR by themselves aren't that great.

" we all know that combined arms lists work much better than "I spam this and kill you hurr". provided they're run correctly."
-Spellbound.

That's nonthink, a convenient myth. I don't know how it propogates in the face of the results, year after year. Unit spamming always wins. You take the best unit or combo, in the greatest numbers possible, and win.

What, those Khorne berserkers have a champion with a power weapon and a lord with daemon weapon? Here, chew on this dread, hope you roll 6's to hit, 6's to glance with your krak grenades and do enough damage for me to care.

The krak grenades are inconsequential when you consider the skull champion with 4 S9 attacks on the charge. I agree with the individual unit assessments, except for tac squads.

That's nonthink, a convenient myth. I don't know how it propogates in the face of the results, year after year.

Uh, flying circus was a dominant tournament fixture since the Eldar codex was released right up until the end of 4th edition. And the last 'Ard Boyz Tournament was won by Monolith /Destroyer spam. Iron Warriors used to dominate via Obliterator spam. How does unit spam not work again?

Wait, I think we are agreeing here. I'm trying to scoff at the "balanced army" theory. I think spam is the way to go. I need to edit my post.

Indeed, spam is the way to go in larger battles.

40kenthusiast wrote:Wait, I think we are agreeing here. I'm trying to scoff at the "balanced army" theory. I think spam is the way to go. I need to edit my post.

Sorry, I may have misread. I thought you were trying to say that spamming units being effective is a widely held, but false, belief (I have seen arguments about this elsewhere, so maybe I jumped the gun). Yeah, spam is and has always been successful.

No. I stand by my statement. Combined arms works more effectively than spam, it just has to be done right, and it very rarely is. One might call Stelek's list "landraider spam", but it employs combined arms as well. Without the units with flamers inside the landraiders it wouldn't nearly do as well against orks as it does, and without the mystics it could be vulnerable to any deepstriking army.

I believe a good unit in large numbers does well - but they have to be supported by other units that make up for their shortcomings or else they'll be dealt with easily.


And a skull champion with 4 S9 attacks on the charge still doesn't have good odds of killing a venerable dreadnought. Besides, I specifically mentioned power weapon, as I see those about 2/3 of the time. Obviously if something has the ability to deal with vehicles easily it won't do as well. It's the uber slaughter infantry units that it just laughs at, and saves you a lot of trouble.

anything with a space marine in it will win, but not chaos space marine they bad for peoples health.

No one said eldar? Tsk tsk. Come on .... who else randomly creates gods for humans to worship?

Maybe if it were a beauty pagent or a figure skating competition.

I still think BA and Chaos

Darrian13 wrote:Strong statement frgsinwntr. Is this just bravado on your part or are you willing to make a wager? Are you so sure that one of your 3 friends will win?

They advance to the next round

Sorry for the double post! but I may be full of Bravado but I am 99% of the time right!

Deadshane1 wrote:Yea, kinda funny how there's all this talk about how Horde orks cannot fight multiple LR's, LR's are becomming increasingly commonplace, and yet a Horde Ork player dominates the Chicago GT by scoring top battle points out of EVERYONE there.

Apparently Orks dont have as much trouble with them as everyone thought. Either that or its clear that Orks, obviously ARE a top teir army that dont have to worry about LR spam....which isnt.

To be fair, Shane, there weren't any LR-spam armies at Chicago (and LR spam at 1750 is a lot harder to do than at 2500). I took a 5-LR army to the Ard Boyz semis, and did less than optimally (i.e. I didn't place). It does take a certain level of skill to run, simply because to win a tournament, you need the massacres. That's tough to do with a LR-spam army that has few scoring units. Getting the win is relatively easy with LR spam, but getting the massacre takes a great deal of timing.

The more I think about it the more I'm inclined to say that Stelek will win it. Cheers!

Yeah, Wuestenfux is right, it's gotta be Stelek. He is simply, unbeatable.

So unbeatable that he didn't even go...

He said multiple times that he wasn't able to go to the Semi-finals. Although it sure is hard to beat someone that isn't there.

I know he did not attend the second round of the Ard Boy. He was too busy playing in an RTT at a store called Hasturs on Saturday.