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Datadep5 wrote:I think that russ's moving and shooting is just wrong. Why could they do it, but my pred has to sit still to fire it's HB sponsons? If they do this I'd like to see some reasoning behind it.

I think that land raiders moving and shooting is just wrong. Why can they do it, but my chaos land raider has to sit still to fire it's lascannon sponsons? Why can vanguard vets assault the turn they deep strike, but my raptors have to sit still? Why is getting charged by a bunch of boy scouts while a few of smoke bombs and firecrackers go off scarier than getting charged by my bloodthirster? I'd like to see some reasoning behind it.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Datadep5 wrote:I think that russ's moving and shooting is just wrong. Why could they do it, but my pred has to sit still to fire it's HB sponsons? If they do this I'd like to see some reasoning behind it.

I think that land raiders moving and shooting is just wrong. Why can they do it, but my chaos land raider has to sit still to fire it's lascannon sponsons? Why can vanguard vets assault the turn they deep strike, but my raptors have to sit still? Why is getting charged by a bunch of boy scouts while a few of smoke bombs and firecrackers go off scarier than getting charged by my bloodthirster? I'd like to see some reasoning behind it.

Because GW wants to sell you a Deamon Army.

Does seem kinda silly that the only way to protect tanks from assaults is to surround them with nice gooey meat shields to keep the enemy from getting upto it. New vehicle upgrade, "meat shield"?

I'm sceptical of these rumors. Some of them have been mentioned before, without detail. We've still yet to see what the writer meant by "more interesting lasguns," the above might be some part of it. Imagine being able to select different pattern lasguns.

I am a little sceptical too as far as these rumours go. Most of these are from old posts. I tend to think or maybe hope, GW is going to go for the dettachments rules system. Similiar to WHFB Empire rules. I think it would make more sense. Those rumours tend not to contradict the current core rules. They just allow for different organization of the Imperial Guard army.

The current codex is just too limiting in my opinion. Half the dictrines while characterful, are fairly useless in game play. A total elimination of the doctrines, as in the SM codex, seems more likely. Adding a Leman Russ as a platoon support unit, instead of 3 tanks in Heavy Support Squadrons, seems to be more balanced. Especially since you need troops to claim objectives and the new rules are more objective based.

Marines get new ammo choices don't they? I think new lasgun options are not too far fetched.

Personally I think the best way to "fix" IG tanks is to allow them to take an upgrade (10, 15, 20 pts per tank?) which allows them to count defensive weapons as S5 and down (call it advanced weapon stabilization systems or something). Yes this does mean that you won't be able to fire your battlecannon AND those sponsons but it does mean that your 3x HB russ, your Conquerers, Chimeras, and Hellhounds could go back to their rightful place as mobile inf. support. I still don't think GW is going to fix our KP problem (because I don't think they see it as a problem) so this little bit of added firepower would help to even the playing field a bit nicely.

The rumor I heard (from a reputable source in a nice dark shirt) said that the Lemun Russ wouldn't be able to move and shoot ALL it's weapons. He said that sponson weapons would count as defensive weapons regardless of whats on them. So that you could move 6" and fire all 3 Heavy Bolters, but not the BC.

The assault 24 lasguns is something I can quasi confirm. He said there was a minor change going in to make guardsmen more effective at the 12-24" range and able to shoot and counter assault better. So that fits exactly with what was hinted at.

Doctrines are apparently gone as well. Instead you can buy upgrades for platoons (the entire platoon) for a set price. This means larger platoons get a DEAL on the doctrines and smaller platoons are paying more per squad. So for, say, 25 points your platoon gains cameoline and you only have 2 squads then that's nice, but you go 5 squads and it's one hell of a deal.

The "doctrines" used as examples were: Light Infantry, Cameoline, Warrior Weapons, Transport Options, Deep Strike, Bionics (6+ invuln) & Sharpshooting. While that might not be all of them, that's what was used as examples during the discussion, so they might not actually be in, but it's a good indicator.

Most importantly the command squads will count as a unit, NOT an independent character with retinue. That, for me, solves all my KP woes. I don't mind being at a disadvantage (cus of the scoring units advantage) but it's nice to see that weakness lowered a bit. Combine with smart doctrine usage and things are looking up.

The Commissar wrote:Personally I think the best way to "fix" IG tanks is to allow them to take an upgrade (10, 15, 20 pts per tank?) which allows them to count defensive weapons as S5 and down (call it advanced weapon stabilization systems or something). Yes this does mean that you won't be able to fire your battlecannon AND those sponsons but it does mean that your 3x HB russ, your Conquerers, Chimeras, and Hellhounds could go back to their rightful place as mobile inf. support. I still don't think GW is going to fix our KP problem (because I don't think they see it as a problem) so this little bit of added firepower would help to even the playing field a bit nicely.

This would probably not be too out of line considering Tau have something like this right? This forum is full of rumors from GW store employees. I dont' believe store personnel are kept up to date on what the design department is doing. Especially months in advance of a release.

Now that my sheer excitement has worn off, and I have truly thought about it critically, I think the russ squads will be true, but I think the OP or whoever heard the rumor about shooting everything misinterpreted it. I can see being able to move and shoot the battle cannon OR all hull weapons. That really isnt that broken.

Also, I play AC first and foremost, and for those of you that have not and are going purely on stats, it isnt uber competitive even now to have all that armor. I think that the squadron rules will really balance it, plus the fact that you DO have so many points in them, and in this list they wont be scoring and you wont have an HQ tank.

Armor 14 is good, but when you have a lot of vehicles on the board, movement is tough, and you basically have to make a wall (and be clever to try and never show 12 to anyone who matters) thus you are really susceptible to anything that doesnt deploy in their zone. Not only that but having to be within 6 of each other makes it even tougher.

Also, and the real key for me is that the leman russ will be a new kit. Almost all new kits are good in the new rulebooks. Look at the new WFB chaos, where the best lists use nothing but the new models. Look at marines with...okay I dont need to explain that one. GW will want to sell a lot, and if this rule is true it will add a lot to that.

So in short, I think the squads, and being able to have nine is a very believable rule, but I think the firing rule is either misheard or just...really good. I dont think that will stay as it is written here though.

EDIT: Also the armor values will not change. I can tell you that with confidence and would bet a lot on it. I just dont see that happening.

aka_mythos wrote:Does seem kinda silly that the only way to protect tanks from assaults is to surround them with nice gooey meat shields to keep the enemy from getting upto it. New vehicle upgrade, "meat shield"?

You mean just like in real life?!? Combined Tank/Infantry formations are pretty much standard fare on the modern battlefield. Tanks are too vulnerable to flank/rear shots to operate without foot troops securing the rear.

The Green Git wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Does seem kinda silly that the only way to protect tanks from assaults is to surround them with nice gooey meat shields to keep the enemy from getting upto it. New vehicle upgrade, "meat shield"?

You mean just like in real life?!? Combined Tank/Infantry formations are pretty much standard fare on the modern battlefield. Tanks are too vulnerable to flank/rear shots to operate without foot troops securing the rear.

The problem is once you get into CC, your opponent is considered to always be hitting you in the rear. The enemy can charge the front or side of the tank. Having a squad of ten Imperial Guard at the rear of the tank does nothing for you. That is not like in real life. And in real life your opponent doesn't have a powerklaw or a monstrous creature to cut through your armor "like butta".

The Green Git wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Does seem kinda silly that the only way to protect tanks from assaults is to surround them with nice gooey meat shields to keep the enemy from getting upto it. New vehicle upgrade, "meat shield"?

You mean just like in real life?!? Combined Tank/Infantry formations are pretty much standard fare on the modern battlefield. Tanks are too vulnerable to flank/rear shots to operate without foot troops securing the rear.

Nobody appreciates your "facts" and "logic". Just because reality works that way doesn't mean we have to agree with it. I reject your reality and substitute my own. Reality has a clear bias towards things working like they will not like they should, sir. SIR.

It's probably why the new guard codex is rumored to have mixed platoons. Lemun Russ and Sentinels as options in the squads after at least 2 guard squads. So 2 squads and a Lemun russ... good times.

"Also, and the real key for me is that the leman russ will be a new kit. Almost all new kits are good in the new rulebooks. Look at the new WFB chaos, where the best lists use nothing but the new models. Look at marines with...okay I dont need to explain that one. GW will want to sell a lot, and if this rule is true it will add a lot to that. "

AC aside. Most guard players have three Leman Russ at most. Allowing you to take them as a support option for platoons and as Heavy choice would still generate sales. Although they would sell a lot more of those squadron boxes if this rumor is true. And that may be the goal. I do agree that the rule allowing you to shoot all weapons is likely untrue. Unless you are playing an armored company this makes them pretty powerful.

The sponsons being defensive makes sense -- everything shooting though not so much.

Allowing Leman squadrons just opens up the heavy slot a bit for other things more then allowing more russes in a list. This has been an oft repeated rumor though, the black shirt might be regurgitating rumors from warseer et al.

Heavygear wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I could see Russ Squadrons. Note that, in regular games of 40k, you won't be able to take more than a couple before you run out of points.

I think you hit the nail on the head. With the points limitations of a tournament style game, this just provides you with the ability to field an armored company from the codex. Roughly 9 russes and a hellhound or two. This isn't anything major, as we have all seen armored companies before.

Except, that won't be a legal army. You'll still need a squishy pair of Troops and an even squishier HQ. So that's going to cost 300 to 500 pts to cover compulsories. Now what GW *should* be doing is pushing tournament game sizes down to 1500 pts, so that those 2 Troops consume a higher proportion of the total points available. So you'd see, at most, 1200 pts available for Russes. Right now, a stripped-down HB Russ weighs in around 150 pts. So that's a maximum of 8 Russes providing fire support for the HQ and Troops. The IG will auto-lose 2/3 (Objectives) missions, because there is no way for them to capture, only contest.

With multiple Russ squadrons, I think you end up with an army that looks cool as it loses most of its games.

Heavygear wrote:With regards to move and shoot, who knows.

I think GW will do add an option to make the Russ Lumbering for 25pts or so, but with a top speed restriction. For example, it might cost +25 pts, but you can only move up to d6" and count as BS2.
____

Miggidy Mack wrote:Doctrines are apparently gone as well. Instead you can buy upgrades for platoons (the entire platoon) for a set price. This means larger platoons get a DEAL on the doctrines and smaller platoons are paying more per squad. So for, say, 25 points your platoon gains cameoline and you only have 2 squads then that's nice, but you go 5 squads and it's one hell of a deal.

The "doctrines" used as examples were: Light Infantry, Cameoline, Warrior Weapons, Transport Options, Deep Strike, Bionics (6+ invuln) & Sharpshooting. While that might not be all of them, that's what was used as examples during the discussion, so they might not actually be in, but it's a good indicator.

What you add sounds very reasonable. I can see that happening.

Buying Doctrines per Platoon instead of per squad is brilliant! It's like Icons to Mark CSM units. Perfect!

I'm not happy to see "Sharpshooting", if it's going to be anything like the current incarnation. If it stays, I'd like to see it vastly simplified: "Sharpshooters - if the unit does not move, each model may fire once at BS4"

Also, where's Carapace? Carapace armor is a no-brainer Platoon "Doctrine" upgrade.

Also, and the real key for me is that the leman russ will be a new kit. Almost all new kits are good in the new rulebooks. Look at the new WFB chaos, where the best lists use nothing but the new models. Look at marines with...okay I dont need to explain that one. GW will want to sell a lot, and if this rule is true it will add a lot to that

Yeah, because the thunderfire is amazing.. They sure do power up those new models! :Cough possessed, burnas, tankbustas, deffkoptas, chaos spawn, wraithlords, the entire daemon line, Cough:.

My throat hurts.

aka_mythos wrote:Does seem kinda silly that the only way to protect tanks from assaults is to surround them with nice gooey meat shields to keep the enemy from getting upto it. New vehicle upgrade, "meat shield"?

This is one 40K tactic that almost sounds realistic. It's pretty common to have an infantry escort for tanks an other large vehicles to deal with some of their blind areas, and other limitations.

@Shuma: Daemons did OK in the tournaments... They can't be all suck.

Alpharius wrote:Leman Russ' moving and firing ALL their weapons?

No, probably not.

Doctrines?

No, probably not.

And the last thread seemed like a wish list?

Totally agree.

First of all, the IG have always been billed as a slow and ponderous force, but one which will inevitably swamp the enemy. Leman Russ' nipping around everywhere. and the basic gun become Assault 2 is not that army. In the least.

Also, Valkyries seems a tad expensive. Not sure on exchange rate used by GW right now, but wouldn't that be in the region of £40-£50???

Bunkum in my opinion. Sheer Bunkum.

BigToof wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Does seem kinda silly that the only way to protect tanks from assaults is to surround them with nice gooey meat shields to keep the enemy from getting upto it. New vehicle upgrade, "meat shield"?

This is one 40K tactic that almost sounds realistic. It's pretty common to have an infantry escort for tanks an other large vehicles to deal with some of their blind areas, and other limitations.

Unsupported armor tends to get slaughtered in close engagements against opponents that possess real anti armor weaponry (more than just IED's and old russian rocket launchers). You need infantry to the flanks of the armor to clear buildings and rooftops, as well as to scout for anti armor explosives and other obstacles. The combined arms assault also uses a lot of air support, but that isn't really represented in the game.

As someone with 3 forgeworld valkyries in the post somewhere and one already on my desk i'd obviously love a plastic valkyrie but I can't see it really. I know the rumours say it's confirmed and all that but I've seen "rumours" that an ork stompa is confirmed 2 days after GDUK seminar attendees were told it's a dream and they hope to produce but wouldn't be any time soon because of the technology available.

I also really hope the valk doesn't end up in the codex, the whole point of apocolypse is for extreme formations, tanks and flyers. GW have said on numerous occasions that they want to keep super heavies and flyers out of "normal games" So if it gets put in the codex it's going to be a flaming skimmer, Does any IG player honestly want a skimmer? It'd be horrendous!

Miggidy Mack wrote:
It's probably why the new guard codex is rumored to have mixed platoons. Lemun Russ and Sentinels as options in the squads after at least 2 guard squads. So 2 squads and a Lemun russ... good times.

This would be cool if they had an option for 'tank riders'... I.E. dangerous transports Although, to be honest, I'm not sure if a Russ is a much faster ride than walking these days.

I do, I would love an IG skimmer. Honestly, I'd pay through the nose for a legal IG skimmer. And if it looks as good as the Valkryie? I just won't buy anything else for a while.

We *all* want more, better IG transport options. I'll be happy to get a Valk.

But if GW is thinking $75 USD, that's going to limit sales. Make it $60, and they'll do great.

winterman wrote:This has been an oft repeated rumor though, the black shirt might be regurgitating rumors from warseer et al.

That is very possible!

JohnHwangDD wrote:You'll still need a squishy pair of Troops and an even squishier HQ. So that's going to cost 300 to 500 pts to cover compulsories.

I always take foot troops in my AC now. You would be surprised how survivable they are with all that 14 running around. I use stormies though, so they have a 4+ and two plasma guns. Their shooting coupled with a TL HB chimera can take care of a lot of threats. However their role coming up will be objective grabbing, and keeping them alive in a chimera isnt too hard, especially if you use your terrain and tanks in clever ways.

Actually, if it is an option keeping your troops in valkyries (or vultures whichever carries troops) might be even more fun.

But yeah if you take them bare on the table they are toast furst turn.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Right now, a stripped-down HB Russ weighs in around 150 pts.

Right now. If the chimera gets a good points drop I expect the Russ too as well. Thats a coin toss though, I wouldn't be too shocked if I opened the codex up and it was the same.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
With multiple Russ squadrons, I think you end up with an army that looks cool as it loses most of its games.

Have you played with or against an AC before? I don't think it's broken but it sure is good. I have a great record with them and the only thing that will be changing in my list if these rumors are true is the russes will be in squads, I will have an armored fist HQ and one more unit in a chimera. Ill be able to take two more hellhounds than I can now though, so I think its a balance. Time will tell though.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Also, and the real key for me is that the leman russ will be a new kit. Almost all new kits are good in the new rulebooks. Look at the new WFB chaos, where the best lists use nothing but the new models. Look at marines with...okay I dont need to explain that one. GW will want to sell a lot, and if this rule is true it will add a lot to that

Yeah, because the thunderfire is amazing.. They sure do power up those new models! :Cough possessed, burnas, tankbustas, deffkoptas, chaos spawn, wraithlords, the entire daemon line, Cough:.

My throat hurts.

No need to be such a sarcastic jerk about it, but since you listed them.
Possessed - The only one of the list I agree with.
Burnas - Packaged with lootas, arguably the best unit in the Ork arsenal save for the basic boy.
Tankbustas - They aren't possessed bad, Ive seen plenty of folks use them. Ill admit I wouldnt though.
Deffcoptas - That's just silly if we are talking a KoS list.
Spawn - They are good in fantasy, they also desperately needed new models, no matter how good they are.
Wraithlords - I beg your pardon??
The enitre demon line - You obviously don't follow fantasy!
Thunderfire - very good if you spam them.

I want them to bring back Rapier Lasers!

Capt K

GMMStudios wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:You'll still need a squishy pair of Troops and an even squishier HQ. So that's going to cost 300 to 500 pts to cover compulsories.

I always take foot troops in my AC now. You would be surprised how survivable they are with all that 14 running around. I use stormies though, so they have a 4+ and two plasma guns. Their shooting coupled with a TL HB chimera can take care of a lot of threats. However their role coming up will be objective grabbing, and keeping them alive in a chimera isnt too hard, especially if you use your terrain and tanks in clever ways.

Actually, if it is an option keeping your troops in valkyries (or vultures whichever carries troops) might be even more fun.

But yeah if you take them bare on the table they are toast furst turn.

Grenadiers? In Chimeras? You're still spending 300+ pts on Troops & HQ.

GMMStudios wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Right now, a stripped-down HB Russ weighs in around 150 pts.

Right now. If the chimera gets a good points drop I expect the Russ too as well. Thats a coin toss though, I wouldn't be too shocked if I opened the codex up and it was the same.

How much did the Whirlwind drop in the new SM Codex? How about the Pred? I think the Chimera will drop a bunch, but not the Russ.

GMMStudios wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
With multiple Russ squadrons, I think you end up with an army that looks cool as it loses most of its games.

Have you played with or against an AC before?

I normally play a pseudo-AC with 3 Demolishers & 2 Hellhounds (need 3rd). When I play Apoc, I add the Russes & Bassies - I have pie for everyone!

GMMStudios wrote:I don't think it's broken but it sure is good. I have a great record with them and the only thing that will be changing in my list if these rumors are true is the russes will be in squads, I will have an armored fist HQ and one more unit in a chimera. Ill be able to take two more hellhounds than I can now though, so I think its a balance. Time will tell though.

Guard is FUN!

But I'm not sure how much the points cost will change. I'm not banking on much for the Russes, and would actually rather see all of the reduction on Chimeras.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Grenadiers? In Chimeras? You're still spending 300+ pts on Troops & HQ.

Yeah, I know. You're talking as if you want nothing but russes in an army, and that this is a liability but it is not. A couple well equipped squads will be the scalpel in this jackhammer of an army. There are a few things that AC struggles against, such as termies and cover, and foot dudes can be equipped to deal with it. Deathwing doesnt scare me as its a small amount of slow guys that tend to eat pie plates, but a single unit in an army is a tough little but to crack when you have to drop so many plates to get their saves to fail. Plus they draw attention away from the things BCs are good at killing. A unit of stormies with two plasma (or two units) take care of termies just fine.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
How much did the Whirlwind drop in the new SM Codex? How about the Pred? I think the Chimera will drop a bunch, but not the Russ.

It was a little bit wasnt it? Im not saying a 30 point drop but something that will make track guards basically come included for the price we have now. Something like 5-10 points maybe.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

I normally play a pseudo-AC with 3 Demolishers & 2 Hellhounds (need 3rd). When I play Apoc, I add the Russes & Bassies - I have pie for everyone!

Hey, it's not a company unless there are ten (okay nine will do) Russ chassis!

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Guard is FUN!

But I'm not sure how much the points cost will change. I'm not banking on much for the Russes, and would actually rather see all of the reduction on Chimeras.

I'm not either, just throwing out thoughts. The only thing I would actually bet money on is that the armor won't change.

I'm still hoping for some news on Stormtroopers, mainly if Stormtrooper armies (i.e. ST's as Troops) will still be possible. I'm hoping so since they are getting a new kit, but I'm not holding my breath either.

So do we have any official confirmation of the plastic Valkyrie???

I am SOOOOO waiting to get some of those for my various Inquisitorial and IG elements.

Vaktathi wrote:I'm still hoping for some news on Stormtroopers, mainly if Stormtrooper armies (i.e. ST's as Troops) will still be possible.

Yep, when you take the Storm Trooper special character you will be able to take Storm Troopers as troops.

BYE