Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah,
you guys with your moral compasses make me laugh...
we all spend vast quantities of cash on little bits of plastic, while people in this world (and your own home town) are homeless and cold or go hungry...

The rest of you need to grow up, giving this guy the moral high ground... must be nice up there, on your high horse... with a great view of all the morally corupt.
...Idiots.
The dude didn't steal the minis and is having moral regret... he paid his dosh for gaunts and the store handed him gaunts...

Like I said. call the Store if they don't have a issue then it's all good... no harm no foul...

Panic...

gruntboy wrote:Oh come on, moral, disgusting? These are a bit strong for $100 worth of models.

So, if you're willing to do that for $100, where is your cut off point? $101? $1000? More?
Yes. Moral. Disgusting.
Just because you seem to think that it's acceptable to put a price limit on morality doesn't mean the rest of us do. I don't care if it's $1, $100, $1000 or more. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Purposefully taking something you KNOW you should not be receiving IS theft.

gruntboy wrote:You want disgust, just think about how much people charge for small lumps of plastic and metal and intellectual property on fantasy creations. Think how much markup the middlemen put on other people's creations.

Apples. Oranges.
Just because I think GW overprices their models (and I DO), it isn't license to steal from, either, them or a FLGS. Making a profit LEGALLY isn't wrong. Not morally, not ethically. Thee's no deception in what GW does. Their numbers are out there in the public eye. Anyone with a little Google-Fu can estimate what a model costs GW to produce.
Not liking someone's prices doesn't justify breaking the law. Not now. Not ever.

gruntboy wrote:I don't think this is anything to get upset about. Either the satisfaction that you got more than you paid for outweighs the perceived guilt that maybe a middleman got screwed by GW, or maybe GW didn't make quite as much profit, or it does not.

Wow. Remind me not to ever vote for you for elected office. The satisfaction of getting more than you paid for outweighs morality? Man. That's a potentially criminal statement if I ever heard one.
"Well, I'd feel bad about robbing that bank... But I got Ten Grand out of the heist. So, forget guilt! I'm stoked!"
(or would it need to be a higher amount for a bank robbery to be acceptable to you?)

gruntboy wrote:Some of you people need to get your priorities right: sure, have a moral compass, but save it for stuff that really matters. Where is that moral compass when you're fantasizing about games that glorify war?

Morality IS a priority for me. Doing the right thing IS a priority for me. Living my life trying to be the best d*mn example I can be for my children, grandchild, neices and nephews IS a priority for me.
Stealing models from stores or manufacturers is not. No game is so important to me.

How does this game glorify war? I see it as a tactical exercise, representative of fictional and supernatural creatures in fictional situations doing fictional things. There is no glory in it.
It's kind of sad that you think it is.

A wise man once said it best, "What does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?"

two_heads_talking wrote:I ask this simple question. If the rolls were reversed, what would you have the other person do? The golden rule applys, do unto others as you would have them do unto you..

I don't believe in the Golden Rule. I follow the Platinum Rule;

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto your mother."


Eric

Axyl I would have done what you did

The question of morality is a rather tough question.

how do you philosophically define right and wrong? This is the heart of the question I think

1. Definitely not post in a public forum about it
2. Decide from there

Panic wrote:Yeah,
you guys with your moral compasses make me laugh...
we all spend vast quantities of cash on little bits of plastic, while people in this world (and your own home town) are homeless and cold or go hungry...

The rest of you need to grow up, giving this guy the moral high ground... must be nice up there, on your high horse... with a great view of all the morally corupt.
...Idiots.
The dude didn't steal the minis and is having moral regret... he paid his dosh for gaunts and the store handed him gaunts...

Like I said. call the Store if they don't have a issue then it's all good... no harm no foul...

Panic...

How does spending money on a game, rather than using it to feed the hungry, trump theft?
That is a simplistic and inaccurate way of defending an amoral point of view. The tactic is called deflection. "Direct their attention elsewhere."

I don't pretend to be on a high horse. I have my failings and I know it. That does not mean that I won't rail against a society that sees it as acceptable to rob someone of something simply because that person made a mistake. Taking those models is no more acceptable than keeping the extra buck or two that the cashier accidentally gave you in change because he miscounted or the bills were stuck together.

If you KNOW there's a problem, then it's wrong to keep it. There is no debating THAT. Wrong is wrong and right is right.
Understanding that it is human nature to want to keep those models is not the same as acceptance. I may understand his basic desires to keep them ("More for me!"). Hell, I have them myself EVERY time I'm in a situation like that. But understanding it does not mean I have to be complicit by not speaking against it (especially when opinions were clearly and openly requested) or accept it without dispute.

He doesn't seem to be having too much regret... at least, he didn't at first. At one point he said he'd probably just keep the models and not say anything. He didn't call them until people with ethics started chiming in, in opposition to those of you who were supporting his initial tendency towards moral bankruptcy.

He paid for gaunts and they handed him gaunts.
He paid for X amount and they handed him Y. He knew it was the wrong amount. Catch that? The WRONG amount. It's called WRONG for a reason.
Turn the tides... Would it be acceptable for that store to get one over on him if he didn't expect it? Maybe pass off BFM or AoBR models for the more expensive ones? If he didn't notice the switch, would it THEN be acceptable? Would YOU want to be in that situation?
If YOU were the one who accidentally gave him too much, would you STILL want him to keep the viewpoint you're espousing?

call the Store if they don't have a issue then it's all good... no harm no foul...

Panic...

I agree.
Call the store. If they don't have a issue then it's all good.


Eric

Kilkrazy wrote:Take them back.

Your honour and conscience is worth more than a few free toy soldiers.

con-sci-ence

Well the issue is resolved. GW messed up the order and they don't care enough to ship back these boxes and send back the cheaper ones. The store doesn't care as I paid for exactly what I ordered and they didn't lose any money. In addition I no longer have the guilt of feeling like I cheated someone.

Thanks for all of your opinions. While at first I did just feel like keeping them as my moral compass doesn't always point true north . In the end I had to do what was right.

Now I have 96 gaunts to glue together....this may take awhile.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Were it GW sending me something via mail order and they'd made that mistake, I'd leave it. But as this is a FLGS and you probably want yuor FLGS to remain your FLGS, I'd go in with the boxes and let them know.

One of four things will happen:

1. He'll take them back.
2. He'll offer you a price to buy the difference, maybe even at a discount for being honest.
3. He'll let you keep them for nothing for being honest.
4. He'll call the cops and you'll go to jail forever. Hope you like men.

BUE

Pretty much what he said. A little honesty goes a long way, and it's a potential way for him to garner a good reputation if he lets you keep them as is.

I agree with Kilkrazy, HBMC, and MagickalMemories.

Well done, Axyl.

yeah,

Well Done Axyl.

To make my point clear.

What I was saying is like this:

If I Find Money, Say £50 on the Floor.

I'll Ask people did you lose some money? how much?
If they say £50 I'll give it back (and hope for a reward?)... IF they say "ummm yeah I think i lost £10"... you know they were trying it on?

What I would not do is walk up to people saying did you lose £50 ?

Morality shouldn't equal Stupidity...

The You should never get anything for nothing people in the thread..... they make me sad...

Panic.

Edit: Lots of edit for spelling... just like most of my posts...

If I thought GW was robbing me everytime I bought their minis, I wouldn't buy from them.

Panic wrote:yeah,

Well Done Axyl.

To make my point clear.

What I was saying is like this:

If I Find Money, Say £50 on the Floor.

I'll Ask people did you lose some money? how much?
If they say £50 I'll give it back (and hope for a reward?)... IF they say "ummm yeah I think i lost £10"... you know they were trying it on?

What I would not do is walk up to people saying did you lose £50 ?

Morality shouldn't equal Stupidity...

The You should never get anything for nothing people in the thread..... they make me sad...

Panic.

Edit: Lots of edit for spelling... just like most of my posts...

Yeah.
That isn't what I got out of it. Thus, my shocked reaction.
This being the case, however, I understand what you mean and agree 100%.

Eric

Axyl wrote:Well the issue is resolved. GW messed up the order and they don't care enough to ship back these boxes and send back the cheaper ones. The store doesn't care as I paid for exactly what I ordered and they didn't lose any money. In addition I no longer have the guilt of feeling like I cheated someone.

Thanks for all of your opinions. While at first I did just feel like keeping them as my moral compass doesn't always point true north . In the end I had to do what was right.

Now I have 96 gaunts to glue together....this may take awhile.

So, kudos to you for doing the right thing.

I hereby reward you with 96 gaunts and... one internet.

Glad to see you did what was right.

Eric

Good for you Axyl. Doing the right thing does broker rewards and sometimes those rewards are far greater than not doing the right thing. In this case a clear conscience and peace of mind and 96 guants > 96 guants.


Oh and I think a MOD should give you a custom forum rank of "Honorable" or something along those lines.

There is a place you can suggest ranking schemes for the forum ranks. You could put "Honorable" as a low rank on the ladder of British lords.

Axyl wrote:Well the issue is resolved. GW messed up the order and they don't care enough to ship back these boxes and send back the cheaper ones. The store doesn't care as I paid for exactly what I ordered and they didn't lose any money.

Called it.

The best of all worlds -- your conscience is clear, you have your extra loot, the shopkeeper is happy, and for the GW haytaz, The Man got it stuck to him a tiny bit.

Result!

Yup, all cleared up and no worries. I'm actually wondering what I am gonna do with all of these extra gaunts that in reality...I just don't need.

One thing about this local shop, which I have stated several times, is that they know absolutely nothing about the game. However, a friend and I have been trying to push them a bit to see if they would be willing to have a table or two built for people in the area that are looking to game (I know they are out there...). I know I could not screw the shop especially when we are trying to build the game up in our area. It is a shame though that they are sitting on a money maker here and they just don't seem to realize it.

Just for a little background information. The shop is actually a small company named admiral toys (visit http://www.admiraltoys.com/ if you really want to know more about them). They specialize mainly in WW2 model tanks and planes, but they must have picked up a Games workshop point of purchase stand at some point and ended up on their store locator on their site. After they were listed on the site they have had several local 40k players come in and ask about gaming, etc. but none of the shop owners really know what 40k was.

Anyway, long story short...I can't screw the small business guys. They need to know that our local gaming community are good people. If I tried to cheat them they may be turned off by our 'kind' and would probably never want to cater to our local community.

Axyl, you win the Internet, sir.

You stopped and put yourself in the other guy's shoes and said, "Hey, I'd really appreciate it if someone treated me with honesty and integrity instead of like a mark," and you showed the other guy the honesty and integrity you wanted to be treated with.

We could use a few more stand-up guys like you out there.

I'm glad you got the extra models, and that your FLGS didn't get hosed, and that GW is aware of their error and can use that information to improve their shipping and services.

Kudos

- Marty Lund

Paint and dip the Gaunts quickly and offer them as a starter for someone else wanting to do 40K. Unless you think that will be too many Nid players.

i completely agree with panic 100% on this whole thing. you guys are looking at this as if a waitress that busts her ass all day gave you WAY more change back then you should have got. THATS worth a morality check. she would have to pay the loss. now compairing GW being idiots and not doing proper checks, to a waitress giving a bigger tip is just insane. I would of called the store like you did, after that, if no one calls back then screw um. you did your part in bringing it to their attention. If they dont feel its important enough to look into then that problem is on them now. sheesh insulting people on this is just crazy

/shrug

He asked for advice. No need to get excited.

Axyl, perhaps you cna paint up some of those gaunts as a sample army used for demos.. Take them in to the store owner and tell him all he needs to do is get some space marines/other army painted up and he can use them in demos.. perhaps he'll let you take care of that too.. who knows, you might have opened a rather large door with the store owner.. you might be the catalyst in bringing in other players..

Of course that could be wishful thinking on my part as I think good deeds should be rewarded ...

You have done your "due diligence" at this point then. If you have already called the shop MUTIPLE times you have already involved your time and theirs and if it drags out too much longer it becomes more trouble than it's worth to deal with.
You should rest at ease that you did more than the average guy (based on the average of responses here) to sort this out and if it is a issue then they will have to do the footwork to contact you from here out.
Enjoy your new army.

Axyl wrote:
One thing about this local shop, which I have stated several times, is that they know absolutely nothing about the game. However, a friend and I have been trying to push them a bit to see if they would be willing to have a table or two built for people in the area that are looking to game (I know they are out there...). I know I could not screw the shop especially when we are trying to build the game up in our area. It is a shame though that they are sitting on a money maker here and they just don't seem to realize it.

I pray that WALMART never learns about this gold mine. Can you imagine trying to play at a place like that?

Flachzange wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Bottom line?
Some of you people absolutely disgust me.

A MORAL person doesn't just keep the frigging models. He approaches the store owner with HONESTY AND INTEGRITY. If the owner turns around and lowers his moral standards, SO BE IT. That doesn't mean you should lower yours before he gets the chance to lower his.

If it was HIS mistake, he should get the UNOPENED models back, so he can return them for credit or resale. If it was GW's fault, GW should get the chance to tell you to keep them (what they'd PROBABLY do), or ask the FLGS to ship 'em back.

You people telling him to keep the dang models should re-examine your moral compasses.

Eric

word.
Nuff said.

I've got another word for you.

5 terminators- $50.00
Nuff said.

GW mail trolls are tools. HOWEVER-You should tell your shop that they got hosed, explain what you wrote here, and go ahead and get your concious washed clean.
GW will easily drill it to you on the 5 gaunts you wanted in the first place, anyway, but being a normal person of character, you need to make it a point to keep your FLGS in buisness, and making sure they don't get screwed by GW is part of the deal to good working( and playing) relationships in your area.


Its not a question of people being disgusting, its a question of personal integrity and values. GW has none. everyone already knows that, but that doesn't mean we play by that rulebook.
Of course some might think it funny that you got a "sweet" deal, but that shop's going to take it in the 4th point of contact somehow to make up the difference. Who knows, they might even STOP mail orders from customers altogether.

Let them at least know about it, if for any other reason then to clear your own head.

MagickalMemories wrote:

gruntboy wrote:Oh come on, moral, disgusting? These are a bit strong for $100 worth of models.

So, if you're willing to do that for $100, where is your cut off point? $101? $1000? More?
Yes. Moral. Disgusting.
Just because you seem to think that it's acceptable to put a price limit on morality doesn't mean the rest of us do. I don't care if it's $1, $100, $1000 or more. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Purposefully taking something you KNOW you should not be receiving IS theft.

gruntboy wrote:You want disgust, just think about how much people charge for small lumps of plastic and metal and intellectual property on fantasy creations. Think how much markup the middlemen put on other people's creations.

Apples. Oranges.
Just because I think GW overprices their models (and I DO), it isn't license to steal from, either, them or a FLGS. Making a profit LEGALLY isn't wrong. Not morally, not ethically. Thee's no deception in what GW does. Their numbers are out there in the public eye. Anyone with a little Google-Fu can estimate what a model costs GW to produce.
Not liking someone's prices doesn't justify breaking the law. Not now. Not ever.

gruntboy wrote:I don't think this is anything to get upset about. Either the satisfaction that you got more than you paid for outweighs the perceived guilt that maybe a middleman got screwed by GW, or maybe GW didn't make quite as much profit, or it does not.

Wow. Remind me not to ever vote for you for elected office. The satisfaction of getting more than you paid for outweighs morality? Man. That's a potentially criminal statement if I ever heard one.
"Well, I'd feel bad about robbing that bank... But I got Ten Grand out of the heist. So, forget guilt! I'm stoked!"
(or would it need to be a higher amount for a bank robbery to be acceptable to you?)

gruntboy wrote:Some of you people need to get your priorities right: sure, have a moral compass, but save it for stuff that really matters. Where is that moral compass when you're fantasizing about games that glorify war?

Morality IS a priority for me. Doing the right thing IS a priority for me. Living my life trying to be the best d*mn example I can be for my children, grandchild, neices and nephews IS a priority for me.
Stealing models from stores or manufacturers is not. No game is so important to me.

How does this game glorify war? I see it as a tactical exercise, representative of fictional and supernatural creatures in fictional situations doing fictional things. There is no glory in it.
It's kind of sad that you think it is.

A wise man once said it best, "What does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?"

two_heads_talking wrote:I ask this simple question. If the rolls were reversed, what would you have the other person do? The golden rule applys, do unto others as you would have them do unto you..

I don't believe in the Golden Rule. I follow the Platinum Rule;

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto your mother."


Eric

You really can't be serious.

LMAO!!!!

Dakka--
Home of Morals and Models?

The original poster told the shop about the mistake. They are OK, he is OK, even GW are OK apparently. Everybody wins.

This thread has run its natural course, so I'm locking it.

Mod out.