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H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes, the Heretic report, where they sent in legions of tanks to fight one another against the evil Lord Varlaak. Also the issue where we first saw the Leman Russ Demolisher.
Good report.
BYE
No, not "good report." "BEST report!" That was my all-time FAVORITE batrep evar!
I collected White Dwarf back in the 80's when it was insightful and independent. The transition to trade mag occured between issues 90 and 150 over a stage of time. First other games companies stuff faed out, then White Dwarf became a rules vessel and finally the trade mag igt is today.
I dodnt even see value inn the articles with exception of those to do with modelling and painting and that can be covered by buying the painting guide book.
Bat reps might be fun, but are themselves just blatant one sided adverts for the latest release army. As for the tactics articles I doubt many would hold up on Dakka.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Just wondering why the OP want to promote WD so very much, your not a GW salesperson or something like that wanting to promote sales?
Honestly, the miniature standard is alot higher then it was before and the painting team do a great job. The advertisment stuff is also usually really neat and nice looking(never heard of having to pay for adverts before tho) and it might even be 5 pages worth of reading for each game. The sad thing is how it used to be, with almost the revers, about 5 pages you didnt read very much.
Does that justify the price tho? Think the huge mayority says it doesnt.
The reason it's ''so easy'' to knock WD is because it is an awful magazine. The reason people like H.B.M.C knock it is because it deserves to be knocked. In the past five years alone it has suffered an enormous drop in quality. It's great for, say, a ten year old who is starting out and doesn't know what's what.
But Anti-Mag, I like seeing the new models! Big deal. They're usually in the store by the following weekend, so go and see them in the flesh. Better still, use the GW website.
Battle reports are DULL. I remember when they used to be random and exciting, as if some sort of lottery had been done to decide the two sides. Personal favourite has to be the Eldar civil war of 195. That's right, and Eldar civil war.
I'll do a brief run down of what I think constitutes a good WD (283 in this case) and a crappy one, the recent WD (345).
283 has...
Introduction (standard)
News/new releases (each with an impressive amount of fluff)
Article on ''Runelord Redmane''. In a sense a decent work of fiction that covers a healthy six pages, hints at scenarios and colour schemes.
2 page spread reporting on UK independent stores. Pretty redundant for most of us, but at two pages I don't mind.
Painting Cadians. Decent little two page spread for painting up everyones ubiquitous NFL-in-space warriors. Quick and to the point, but doesn't skimp on detail.
ADVERT
Index Astartes. Really liked this series, before it got ridiculous and started talking about Rhino APC's. Black Templars have personality. Their transports don't. Good four pages.
Followed by another snappy article on how to make your own 13th company models.
Article by Mat Hutson. 2 page spread about his (well painted and converted) 13th company. Describes a battle with (hilariously) more detail than most modern WD's.
ADVERT
JJ's Fanatic news. Either you're in to specialist games or your not. Either way, it's fine because it's two pages.
ADVERT
Golden Demon survival guide (thanks, I'd forgotten last years. Seriously, if you're gonna a Golden Demon, I'd expect you to have more than a years worth of WD's).
Modelling Workshop. Great six page article on modelling LaTD. Jakob Nielsens muties have kept the idea of a LaTD army bubbling in my mind ever since. Beatiful work.
Hint/Slight ADVERT about Beasts of Chaos release.
Two page story about a Beastlord brawl.
Chapter Approved. Four pages from the artist formerly known as Andy Chambers.
Two page spread on painting Death Guard.
ADVERT-ISH contains guide to using the online store. Snore. Six pages too, bad WD.
Heroes and villains of 40k- Nice six page spread of fiction and rules for Creed and Kell.
4 PAGES OF STORES AND INDEPENDENT STOCKISTS. It's a lovely idea, but I don't think shopping for GW in Dubai is relevant for most people.
Gav Thorpe four page spread about fantasy tactics.
Chaos showcase for Battlefleet Gothic. Kudos for Specialist players.
8 following pages of fluff/modelling/rules for BFG.
Modelling Workshop- Lizaedmen spawing pool. Random = good. 4 pages.
Carnosaur masterclass.
ADVERTS
16 page battle report centered around the Eye Of Terror.
ADVERTS
LOTR etc
end.
345 Introduction
New releases/news. Heavy on selling, light on description.
ADVERT for Battle March
AOBR eight page introduction.
ADVERT
12 page scraping-the-barrel LOTR article.
Gav Thorpe ''Raids'' article. Pretty dull. Nice model of an Orc with a piggy though. 6 pages.
ADVERT
Tales Of Four Gamers. How I rejoyced when I heard this was coming back, and how I lamented that which was lost. Nobody's on a budget this time? Misses the point. 9 pages.
Black Reach Scenarios. 8 pages.
20 pages for token AOBR battle report. Marines and Orks, crikey. Almost forgotten them.
Apocalypse predictions for the future. 3 pages.
ADVERT
Standard Bearer. JJ talking about Specialist games again and saying how they'll never go away even though they pretty much have (in the stores anyway). Crap column.
Hobby essentials. One page on how to cut bases for buildings. With the new saw don't you know!
Painting Ultramarines and Orks. Snorefest. Seems to happen every four issues. 6 pages.
'Eavy Metal. At last, a good article! The recent EM articles are superb; very detailed and clear. Top marks. 6 pages, yum.
Two page spread for GD Poland. Only one page of exhibits?
ADVERTS
BLEEDIN' STORE FINDER (Grown to ten pages!)
ADVERTS
ADVERTS
end.
I know, I'm biased. Hey, I have an opinion like you. I've simply picked out what I liked from two issues, separated by however many years. 283 three has so much more to discuss it's ridiculous.
Come on man, you picked and issue that was published when AOBR came out? What did you expect? Big deal. The other issue is from when the Eye Of Terror campaign was in everyone's faces, yet they still managed to fit in loads of neat little articles.
The problem with WD now is that it's bland. The articles are too few and way too limited. 283 showed that half a dozen comprehensive two page articles on a variety of subjects keeps things fresh and people on their toes. Fantasy players had next to nothing in that recent issue, and that's not fair. How hard would it be to stick in three little articles on say, Skaven conversions, Tomb King Bone Giant colour schemes, or painting horses? It would be so easy.
WD lacks drive and inspiration. I know they have a product to sell. That's obvious. But for the thousands of people who had already decided not to buy AOBR, there was hardly anything there. Variation is key. Maybe, had DE had a few more articles here and there, they wouldn't be as forgotten as they are now. An article on making Raiders look brutal, complete with colour schemes from a range of painting standards would really surprise people, and it wouldn't hurt sales. The new 'Eavy Metal articles are great, but that's the only progress. Getting a free Terminator and Ork nob model doesn't excuse this abomination of a WD. You can't polish a turd.
WD has everything there to work with. They're just lazy. If you find recent WD's value for money, I really envy you. If that's the case, and you find contemporary WD's great, then surely you, more than anyone, can appreciate how good WDused to be.
I really should be spending my time more constructively.
Anti-Mag wrote:
ADVERTS
BLEEDIN' STORE FINDER (Grown to ten pages!)
ADVERTS
ADVERTS
end.
That part niggles me. It seems to have expanded a huge amount fairly recently (relative to the overall run of WD) so that it now takes up a substantial part of the overall magazine. I'm sure there were only a couple of pages some years ago, and in these days where everyone has internet access you surely don't need to print the extended store list in every single issue along with pages of adverts.
I just don't see a reason to purchase the magazine what-so-ever.
The articles generally aren't that great, and on average 1/4 to as much as 1/3 of it is useless to me on LOTR product. Their "battle-reports" aren't even really battle-reports - let alone something that contains useful tips or tactics, and I generally can't expect to find any good tidbits on actual rules for new units coming out that I wouldn't get elsewhere. As a matter of fact, by the time the WD issue for a new army comes out, I've already found out most of the rules and rumors for that army online.
Now compare and contrast this to what I picked up last night for $6 - No Quarter, Privateer Press's magazine.
I'm not going to go into the PP vs. GW thing, because I actively play games from both companies - but when I pick up a No Quarter I get:
Useful battle reports.
Tournament winning army lists
A large dosage of Fluff and background material
and most importantly: Rules and Previews for models coming out that I can't get anywhere else.
Even though No Quarter will cover games I don't play, the support there is fairly small (infernal contraption, etc). However most things for the Iron Kingdoms RPG I can read for background material which is related to the games that I play so it's not all bad.
Again, I'm not trying to make this an indictment of GW vs. PP - but when I walk into my FLGS and I hear a new No Quarter is in, I run over to grab it. For WD I can't think of a single reason I'd want to buy one.
Voodoo Boyz wrote:when I pick up a No Quarter I get:
Useful battle reports.
Tournament winning army lists
A large dosage of Fluff and background material
and most importantly: Rules and Previews for models coming out that I can't get anywhere else.
Yeah,
Rules that you can't get anywhere else!
I Like WD, but I'd be against WD being the only source for certain rules, basically forcing people to buy the mag... or miss out.
(the bloodangle codex was published online so that people who don't want WD could get the rules...)
Want to play the new uber character? you gotta buy WD...what kinda horse gak is that? Is this honestly what PP does?
To be fair, NQ only has to produce content every other month for a game system that
has less history and material to cover. And while I love the rules previews (did you see the
Extoller this past issue?), on some level I'm aware that I won't need the magazine for that
stuff in three months time.
However, PP does preview stuff 3-6 months in advance, which means they've prepared rules
3-6+ months in advance. Sweet!
Question: How do both mags compare to the Rackham mag?
DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++ Get your own Dakka Code!
"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
Panic: It's a rules preview. When the model's released, it comes with the card. If you wait
until the expansion, then you get them all in the book. Voodoo just refers to the fact that you
can't get them anywhere else at the time.
If you read my last post, I also refer to the fact that such previews have a shelf life and
become less useful later on.
DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++ Get your own Dakka Code!
"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
Yeah, my point was more about the fact that Rules previews for PP mini's come out of No Quarter.
It's pretty much the final version of the rules, which is honestly awesome.
With GW, I generally get any real RULES previews and rumors from Warseer, Dakka, or TWF, and those can vary from direct/solid to sketchy at best. This is true even for rules info that is being released via WD - Blood Angels, Warriors of Chaos "get you by", etc.
If GW did playtesting rules for units that are for a codex that is a good couple of months out via White Dwarf, I'd subscribe tomorrow, even at the new prices they charge.
Hell the last WD's I bought were for the BA rules and the WoC rules.
Rules Previews on the PP boards are no better, and are often filled with artificial obfuscation.
"It has the MAT of a Trencher, minus one divided by five and then modified further by the
square root of the current STR at the end of its charge (whose distance is the equivalent
of a small base model's size times 3)."
"That it?"
"Oh yeah, and it has reach."
"Borken!"
I exaggerate. But only a little.
DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++ Get your own Dakka Code!
"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
H.B.M.C. wrote:The only thing of use from recent White Dwarf issues, and they've been doing this since Codex Eldar IIRC, is where they put pictures of every single bit on the new sprues.
Sure, it's more advertising, but at least it is practical advertising, showing me exactly what I'm getting.
I've been generally happy with WD. I'm not much of a gamer or a player, but I like to build, paint, and especially read. I've been getting it since #280, I think.
But this latest price increase from $6 to $7. Thats like a 15% increase. I might have to revaluate now.
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.
OK, so, just as I thought, I'm getting flamed for daring to have an opinion that goes against what a lot of other people think. That's fine. I'm a big boy now, I can take it. As I said before, I'm not looking to change anyone's opinion, merely to state my own. If you don't see any point in the magazine and don't care for it, then don't waste your money on it. I enjoy it and can very happily justify the cost of it, for the enjoyment I get for it. That's my main point in this. The reason that I posted this thread in the first place was that I wanted to express my opinion about something that I enjoy.
Now, to deal with a couple of points individually:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
InyokaMadoda wrote:but my opinion is just as valid as yours!
A commonly held fallacy. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion, but not all opinions are valid. You can have an opinon that's wrong...
BYE
Actually, since my statement was that MY opinion is just as valid as yours, meaning in this matter, I don't believe that it is a commonly held fallacy! I agree that not all opinions are valid, but since my opinion concerns the buying of something that is not illegal or immoral, and that I have not expressed an opinion that is racist, sexist, anti-religious or would really offend any particular group, I feel that any opinions on this matter are just as valid. A petty point, but I wanted to respond, so there!
H.B.M.C. wrote:
mattyboy22 wrote:Realistically, look at some other hobby type magazines out there. A paintball mag is probably 95% ads. How about mainstream magazines? My girlfriend buys one of those ungoldy huge womens mags now and again and they are 99% ads. It's just the way a lot of magazines are now...
Yeah but GW only sells their own stuff. They don't need to advertise in something that some who already knows about the hobby reads. If they want to advertise, they should, y'know, actually advertise. Preaching to the converted doesn't really do them any favours.
BYE
If they didn't need to advertise to the converted, how would we ever know about new stuff? Would we all just stumble over it in the shops? No. Would we find it on the web? No, because all of the photos that we see are from Games Days around the world, where GW advertises it's products. And as for the 'leaked' stuff, I'm pretty sure that GW Legal know what is out on the web most of the time. As I pointed out earlier, all companies advertise and they all target their consumers...
Polonius wrote:I have to be honest, I really don't see why any number of Dakka celebrities bashing white Dwarf would have any impact on your enjoyment. If you dig it, then knock yourself out!
the people that knock White Dwarf are primarily people that want a hobby magazine, but don't feel like they get what they want.
This has nothing to do with absolute value, that is of course impossible. Tastes vary, and while I wouldn't pay money for tinned sardines, I don't judge the people that do. If you enjoy White Dwarf, then enjoy the heck out of it!
Sure, some of the decrying of White Dwarf can get a little repetitive, but as I've stated numerous times: if you don't like complaint echo chambers, leave them!
I have no intention of leaving DakkaDakka simply because my opinion differs from other people's and I certainly don't want anyone else to stop expressing opinions that differ from mine. I merely want to present a different point of view. And thank you, I will 'enjoy the heck out of it'!
H.B.M.C. wrote:The only thing of use from recent White Dwarf issues, and they've been doing this since Codex Eldar IIRC, is where they put pictures of every single bit on the new sprues.
Sure, it's more advertising, but at least it is practical advertising, showing me exactly what I'm getting.
BYE
I do agree that the pictures of all of the bits on sprues are chuffing useful, and if anyone from WD is actually reading this, can we have more of those please? And how about putting all of the bits from ALL sprues on the website? That would be a truly useful resource!
Kallbrand wrote:Just wondering why the OP want to promote WD so very much, your not a GW salesperson or something like that wanting to promote sales?
Honestly, the miniature standard is alot higher then it was before and the painting team do a great job. The advertisment stuff is also usually really neat and nice looking(never heard of having to pay for adverts before tho) and it might even be 5 pages worth of reading for each game. The sad thing is how it used to be, with almost the revers, about 5 pages you didnt read very much.
Does that justify the price tho? Think the huge mayority says it doesnt.
Ha ha. No. I have absolutely nothing to do with GW or anything like that. I do not work for them, and nor do I want to. I'm a teacher. I like WD and wanted to explain why. It really is that simple.
You've never heard of having to pay for adverts? Have you never bought any other magazine? Almost all magazine are crammed full of adverts! If you're ever bored, pick up a woman's magazine in a doctor's waiting room and try to find the Contents page. If you can find one that isn't after at least 15 adverts, I'll be surprised! Not that I buy women's magazines, I'm just making a point!
Anti-Mag wrote:The reason it's ''so easy'' to knock WD is because it is an awful magazine. The reason people like H.B.M.C knock it is because it deserves to be knocked. In the past five years alone it has suffered an enormous drop in quality. It's great for, say, a ten year old who is starting out and doesn't know what's what.
But Anti-Mag, I like seeing the new models! Big deal. They're usually in the store by the following weekend, so go and see them in the flesh. Better still, use the GW website.
Battle reports are DULL. I remember when they used to be random and exciting, as if some sort of lottery had been done to decide the two sides. Personal favourite has to be the Eldar civil war of 195. That's right, and Eldar civil war.
And seeing a model in a blister pack is the same as seeing an assembled and well-painted model?
I agree that battle reports are dull. I don't really care for them. No matter how 'great' the batreps of yesteryear were, they don't cut the mustard for me. Personal taste.
Howard A Treesong wrote:
Anti-Mag wrote:
ADVERTS
BLEEDIN' STORE FINDER (Grown to ten pages!)
ADVERTS
ADVERTS
end.
That part niggles me. It seems to have expanded a huge amount fairly recently (relative to the overall run of WD) so that it now takes up a substantial part of the overall magazine. I'm sure there were only a couple of pages some years ago, and in these days where everyone has internet access you surely don't need to print the extended store list in every single issue along with pages of adverts.
The end annoys me too. I don't give a flying plop about where all of the stores are. I have the internet and I'm not afraid to use it to find a store.
Folks, this has got to be the longest post I've ever made and after everybody's arguments either for or against, I still return to my original point: I like the magazine. No-one will change my mind. I like it. If that makes you think I'm a simpleton, that's your prerogative. If you hate the magazine and feel you can get all the info you need from the web, your FLGS and your friends, then great. I'm pleased for you and wish you all the best with your hobby. I am not seeking to change your mind and bear you no ill feeling. This whole thread was meant simply as a vehicle for to express my not so commonly held beliefs.
Feel free to post your opinion. You should NOT be subject to personal attacks, but people
can and will disagree with each other on a forum.
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"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
malfred wrote:Feel free to post your opinion. You should NOT be subject to personal attacks, but people
can and will disagree with each other on a forum.
Exactly. Hence the whole point of my post in the first place. I disagree with most people and feel comfortable expressing this point.
I treat my WD like a skin rag. I shamefully view it in private, hide it under the mattress
and deny its existence in public.
I'd look at it more, but getting the pages to open again...
DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++ Get your own Dakka Code!
"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
InyokaMadoda wrote:OK, so, just as I thought, I'm getting flamed for daring to have an opinion that goes against what a lot of other people think.
I didn't really see any flaming here. Maybe you take people disagreeing with you as flaming. If so, see a dermatologist about getting some thicker skin.
InyokaMadoda wrote:Actually, since my statement was that MY opinion is just as valid as yours, meaning in this matter, I don't believe that it is a commonly held fallacy!
Oh it is. People often confused "Everyone is entitled to their opinion" with "Everyone's opinion is valid". Two very different concepts. But you're right, it was a petty point to bring it up. I only brought it up because I hate people saying it as much as I hate it when people say "I don't play to win, I only play to have fun", which is stupid as everyone plays to win. But, moving on...
InyokaMadoda wrote:If they didn't need to advertise to the converted, how would we ever know about new stuff? Would we all just stumble over it in the shops? No. Would we find it on the web? No, because all of the photos that we see are from Games Days around the world, where GW advertises it's products. And as for the 'leaked' stuff, I'm pretty sure that GW Legal know what is out on the web most of the time. As I pointed out earlier, all companies advertise and they all target their consumers...
You're being intentionally obtuse here. I'm sure of it. And that's not a flame. That's an observation.
There's nothing wrong with a 'New Releases' section of White Dwarf. They've been doing that for as long as I've been buying the magazine. The problem comes when the whole issue just becomes about pimping those new releases, plus full page adverts for products we already know about.
InyokaMadoda wrote:I do agree that the pictures of all of the bits on sprues are chuffing useful, and if anyone from WD is actually reading this, can we have more of those please? And how about putting all of the bits from ALL sprues on the website? That would be a truly useful resource!
It sure would help the plastic reseller business!
InyokaMadoda wrote:No matter how 'great' the batreps of yesteryear were, they don't cut the mustard for me. Personal taste.
...
The end annoys me too. I don't give a flying plop about where all of the stores are. I have the internet and I'm not afraid to use it to find a store.
You seem to have gripes with WD that are common to other posts here?
H.B.M.C. wrote:
You seem to have gripes with WD that are common to other posts here?
So are you defending it or agreeing with us?
BYE
HBMC, I'm going to choose not to reply to most of your points. Not because I am being obtuse. Not because I have lost an argument. Not because I disagree or agree with what you've written, but merely for the reason that it is late, I am tired, and I don't feel like getting into a 'you said' style of argument.
What I will say though is that, yes, I agree with many of the points that people are making about WD. There are bits that I don't like and just skip straight past. Shock horror. However, my fundamental point has never changed. I enjoy the magazine and happily spend money on it. Sometimes arguments really can be that simple.
Great, but then that's an opinion which you hold - one which you are perfectly entitled to have - but not an argument.
An argument would imply that you're attempting to prove something or convince someone of something. If you're attempting to prove or convince us that you like WD, then congratulations, job well done. We all agree that you like WD and we would be hard pressed to prove otherwise. Fantastic.
So good. You like WD. We all agree you do. No argument necessary.
Group hug for all.
BYE
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/11/07 01:42:39
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"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
I apologise. I guess I'm just trouble understanding what you were trying to get at when you posted.
You wanted to defend WD... but you seem to share a lot of the same opinions that we have of it. Then you say you just wanted to see that you liked it which is fine, but why?
I really like the changes made to Necromunda when they did Underhive even though most people hate the House Weapon Lists. I'm not going to start a thread about it though.
Your #1 Fan 
