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I do have to admit this army could have some problems with certain daemon builds.

G

The rule say Marneus can choose to pass or fail any test. I only need it for his pimp unit.

G

in 1750
vulkin
3 tooled out tac squads in dps
16 thunder hammer ss terms

Honestly I dont care how kick ass your 700+ point termy squad is. Kill all your lovely scouts and that one tac squad and you lose buddy.

Any good player can easily see this, so id suggest thinking about how your to keep those guys alive other then a 4+cover save.

Hey, G., its not a power build.
Its troop heavy but it lacks some more punch.

Why couldnt 9 obliterators handle the rhinos n stuff in #1? When you played lash that is.

He deep strikes the princes and Oblits. One squad of Oblite were destroyed on the mishap table.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:He deep strikes the princes and Oblits. One squad of Oblite were destroyed on the mishap table.

G

If the enemy units arrive in pieces scattering badly, then the outcome is rather clear.
G., your army is still not a power build.

Golga wrote:Honestly I dont care how kick ass your 700+ point termy squad is. Kill all your lovely scouts and that one tac squad and you lose buddy.

Any good player can easily see this, so id suggest thinking about how your to keep those guys alive other then a 4+cover save.

But isn't that the problem with every army? The point is still valid of course, but really only because of his relative lack of other targets. The land speeders, and rhinos are extensions of the troop squads, and so damaging them in essence damages the ability of the troop squads.

So mr fly, how do you intend on dealing with this problem?

Wait and see. Hee!

G

Shrike78 wrote:

Golga wrote:Honestly I dont care how kick ass your 700+ point termy squad is. Kill all your lovely scouts and that one tac squad and you lose buddy.

Any good player can easily see this, so id suggest thinking about how your to keep those guys alive other then a 4+cover save.

But isn't that the problem with every army? The point is still valid of course, but really only because of his relative lack of other targets. The land speeders, and rhinos are extensions of the troop squads, and so damaging them in essence damages the ability of the troop squads.

So mr fly, how do you intend on dealing with this problem?

Yes squishy scoring units are a problem with any list, but the DEGREE that that problem pertains to this list what's important here.

6 CC termines + LRC + Chronus + lysander + calgar = 1025 points

That means he only has 825 points remaining to capture objectives should that one squad be neutered, against the entire rest of the opponents army. Consider what sorts of units might be able to take this "monster unit" down for half the points cost, and you see why the list has a problem.

That whole unit strikes at initiative 1, so anything that makes it take an enourmous amount of saves will cause that unit some serious hurt. Imagine pitting it against a giant unit of orcs? They would all strike first, make them take some stupid number of saves, and the entire termy squad would likely fall before they even got to strike. Lysander and Calgar on their own can't take down a unit that size on their own.

What about a unit of bloodletters, with their huge number of attacks and power weapons? What about a guard player that lets you chew up a single unit of guard before dropping a demolisher cannon onto the squad? Calgar and lysander may be strong, but they won't stand up to an entire rapid-firing guard army all by themselves.

Consider things like melta bikers, LC heavy guard armies, pretty much any tau army, eldar heavy weapons, a flyrant, etc that could take out that landraider with no effort. Now all you have is a 700 point unit that moves 6" every turn. Whooptee do, why bother even dealing with this unit when you can just ignore it the whole game? Not to mention that knocking out the rhinos he's using for cover will mean the LRC wastes a turn maneuvering around wreckage or unloaded marine squads.

Yes, a single unit of scouts has a 2+ cover save, but see how that handles close combat, hellhounds, flamers, or whirlwind fire... Everything here will go down easy to shooting or close combat except for that ONE squad, that OP is hoping the enemy will spend their entire game trying to deal with?

This is by no means a power build, it's an "all eggs in one basket" list with a ridiculously powerful unit that can smash anything it comes up against IF it gets a chance to do so. Any general worth his salt just won't. He will find ways to delay the squad, and piecemeal the rest of his army that is sorely undermanned and underprotected.

eh for the 2+ cover save im thinking sterns with the cover save negating round would easily take care of them.

But no solid points all and I do agree with you.

As I said before, imagine that LR immobilising itself in difficult terrain. That one dice roll can cost you the game.

Any army that puts that much reliance on a single unit (or group of units) in order to win is a mega-fail.

This army can get beaten by a single lucky Missle Launcher shot on turn 1.

Weak.

Missile launcher cannot penetrate AV14 unless it has tank hunter, which is pretty rare these days. Sure an immobilization would suck but the odds against that happening are fairly rare... 66% chance to hit * 50% chance to make cover save * 17% chance to glance * 17% chance to roll the immobilization result on the table

G

Like I said, a LUCKY missle launcher shot.

Sure, a single missle would need big luck to immobilise a LR, but we've all seen it happen before. Stranger things have happened.

....and if it happens to this list on turn 1, like I said,

GAME OVER.

Shane get real. Are you saying the army is lacking simply because of one very low probability? If you think you can beat this army bring your best that you have and come down to Tampa. Let's see what you can do in a real game.

G

When your entire game plan can get canned by a single lucky roll?....yes, your army is lacking.

You dont build competetive armies with a single prop that when it gets blown away the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. You're whole game plan depends on a LR carrying a terminator squad....thats a weak game plan, sorry to aggravate you, I jus' calls' 'em how I see's 'em.

Shane you are all talk. Come on down and prove it on the table. Anything else is just your particular version of math hammer. Remember when you said my 13th Company sucked? Turns out it was actually a good army after all. You can talk all you want 24-7 but at the end of the day that is all it is really.

G

I don't see why everyone is complaining. GBF is talking about designing this list to beat Nob Bikers and Lash Spam, I think that it was in his first post actually.

Of course it's going to be weak against all comers (fancy that, this isn't what it's for, but then again, nowadays Lash Spam and Nob Bikers is all comers.)

That's just me though.

Of course, the best is when people come on and say, "Oh well IF I brought X, Y, and Z, I would so pwn you!"

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that if I always knew what my opponents brought to the table I'd have an advantage too. :S

:edit: @Deadshane- Yeah, well then I put the Land Raider behind cover when you fire your missile launcher. Essentially all that is created is a game of one-upmanship. And then you say, "Oh well then I counter by moving my missile launcher to where you get cover", and then I say "Well I knew you were going to do that so I move it to where you can't get me" ad nauseum. (sp?)

@GBF

@Vladsimpaler

I'm not saying "all I have to do is shoot a missle and I then do this yaddayadda"

I'm saying that a game plan is weak when you can get hamstrung by the immobilisation of a single vehicle in your army....

He's claiming this to be a power list, it isnt.

I think it can beat job bikers and lash spam. It beat lash spam. I will have to see how it does against more conventional armies. I know it can beat anything Shane puts down.

G

I dont know about you but when I attend a tournament Nob bikers and double lash aren't the only armies I see. now how about this...

My deployment on my table edge yay you're a little less than 36" away

Your turn 1
Advnace

My turn 1
Shoot the rhinos

Your turn 2
advance

my turn 2
attack bike kills the land raider orbital bombardment and vindicater your termies

Your Turn 3
advance on foot

my turn 3
vindicater and run away (repeat until dead)

While all this is happening my 2 land raider redeemers and 5 TH SS termies and peedro are killing the rest of your army

Oh did you get tabled did I take no casulties good game.

I think I just heard a toilet flush.

We're hearing something, that's for sure...

yermom it's just not that simple. Now go finish all your batreps and be a good boy.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:yermom it's just not that simple. Now go finish all your batreps and be a good boy.

G

and now you're resorting to petty insults?

you claimed your list is a powerbuild, that nobody else has thought of yet. That's a big boast GBF. Now you're getting upset when people don't agree that it is?

A powerbuild is a powerbuild because it has something in it that almost all other armies can't effectively deal with. A nob biker squad is ridiculously hard to wound, and has tonnes of wounds. Double lash armies cause serious devastation to any army they come up against. Bloodcrusher spam is much like nob bikers. They have no effective way to just deal with them. Can they be beaten? Yes. Is it super difficult for pretty much ANY army to do? Yes.

Now why do you think your build is a powerbuild? Because you have a wicked strong unit? Fair enough, but is it difficult to deal with?

The answer is of course NO. They are not scoring, and they're mounted in a landraider that just has to be destroyed. To stop a nob biker squad you have to kill ALL of the bikers, or enough to neuter the squad. With this unit, all you have to do is knock out the landraider (and in 1850 EVERY army has enough to knock out a SINGLE land raider), and then they can ignore that squad and piecemeal the rest of your army. This is not a powerbuild because it isn't that difficult to deal with, and most armies won't have all that much difficulty with it.

If your threads were labelled "a real SM ANTI-powerbuild," then you wouldn't have stoked so many flames, but you didn't. You claimed that something is a powerbuild that is quite clearly *not* a powerbuild in most people's books.

If you want to prove people wrong, don't insult them on the forums; take this list to a tournament and come out on top. Then we'll all be eating our words, and you'll be right. Until then, YOU are the one playing mathammer here, and with an army that all of the rest of us mathhammer players don't think is any good.

Green Blow Fly wrote:yermom it's just not that simple. Now go finish all your batreps and be a good boy.

G

Yes G it is that simple and what do you have to keep it from being that simple?

There are 2 reasons your army doesn't work

1 you're trying to make it run like nob bikers as far as killyness and nob bikers has 2 units of bikers.

2. You're uber unit isn't scoring nob bikers are.

MAYBE if you get another land raider 5 more termies and make both raiders regular instead of crusaider and then add some multi melta attack bikes then MAYBE it'll be a power build.

Take the advice green blow, yes your army may be good against nob bikers or lash but what about a 3 vindi space marine force? Drop pod sm. A tau fire line with 9 rail guns? That one eldar wave serpent who drops 5 fire dragons and nukes your land raider.

Your army may be fine against 2 specific builds, but other armies can and will tear you a new hole.

I agree the term power build is premature. I will take this to a big event next and see how it does. My apologies to anyone who felt slighted.

G

It would be very tempting to panic when facing an army like this. You have a big nasty terminator squad with two big nasty heroes. You have orbital bombardment, which is really scary and messes with your deployment. You have a land raider, which is always scary, and you have another two transports, one which could potentially mess up your deep strikers, and another which will provide cover for whatever unit is inside it for at least 1 turn, but more likely 2 or even 3 (1 turn if a lot of fire is focused on it or lucky rolls, 2 if the smoke does it's thing, 3 if it is positioned very well, and doesn't attract a whole bunch of fire, or its wreckage is able to provide cover for the marines).

However, dedicated fire would destroy this list. It would be difficult to decide what was the biggest threat, and what would most easily die, but a slightly above average commander wouldn't have too much trouble with this list imho.

Again, this is if they can keep a level head, and effectively prioritize targets, but...