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I got scared when i saw this list

then i realised it wasn't 6 squads of terminators

now it's much less interesting

meh, next!

I forgot all about the orbital bombardment.

G

Okay so here are some of the general tactics for the list as it stands now for objective based missions. First Space Marines with mech do well in general for these missions as they are hard to move off objectives, moreso when they have some armor screening them. I know and it's been brought up that three tanks, two of which are rhinos are not that hard to take down. Therefore depending on which type army you face off against you will have to decide how you deploy. Obviously assault armies that have low high-ex gun count are easier to deal with during the initial deployment.

I believe that objective based games can have two to five objectives placed. For Take and Control I would consider keeping back the two rhinos and possibly even the LRC to defend the home objective. There is the option to deep strike Marneus and friends close to the away objective, drop the orbital bombardment and count on their armor for one turn of shooting to engage the following turn. This tactic obviously would depend on what you are up against. If you deep strike Marneus and super friends it is going to have to be dealt with by the enemy which draw their immediate attention away from the rest of the army.

In a game of three objectives you have to hold two and contest at least one for the draw. The Space Marines can put four scoring units on the table according to how I play... two tactical squads and the two scout combat squads. The scouts in the speeder are taken simply to hold or contest an objective late on the game - they are not intended for an assault role primarily. In close combat they would be nothing more than a speed bump against most other units... but they are there as a shock squad if absolutely necessary. The other scout squad is intended for harassing fire and to start off the game holding an objective. Telion does have some nice special rules that make the unit better overall in a shooting role.

Four to five objectives could be tough. You have to spread out your forces to hold more than two objectives and now you are relying on two five man scout squads to get the up done. You are going to have to take it to the opponent in these types of situations and pound them in close combat.

The two tactical squads are solid choices and each packs three meltas apiece... two of which can be fired on the move. Twenty Marines in power armor plus two special characters plus six assault Marines may not sound like much but there is a synergy.

Packing Marneus and super friends in the LRC and getting off the charge means you have the option to assault three units simultaneously as Marneus, Darnath and the assault terminators can each disembark from a separate hatch. It might not sound that great but if the two special characters can hold off a unit each for one turn their is a hood chance the following turn they will be joined by the assault squad.

In kill point missions you are going to have to keep a low profile to engage the enemy so that you can reach assault. This is a tough one as well as the 4 to 5 objectives.

So obviously the Achilles heel of this army is that a shooty opponent will try to blast your tanks out from underneath you before you can get dug in. In objective based games you place to I objectives such that you reach one or two on your first move. The same can be done for two out of three objectives depending on who places first. The five railgun Tau army is a big worry but really how often are we going to see that? Most armies don't pack as much AT as they used with one exception being the Oblit spam, which while it sounds bad at first can be managed even in a kill point mission.

So what are the top lists out there that you will see most often - while nob bikers are the red hot snizzle now I think ork hordes and Oblit spam are the two most popular. I think most SM armies are not a problem especially drop pods. The pods will have to land within assault range to fire meltas the turn they arrive and thses types of power armor units are not going to be able to stand up against the über unit in close combat.

I have played small elite mech armies before such as DeathGuard and SW... Yes there those matchups when your tanks get capped early on but now that we are playing a lot of objective based missions it does not have to cripple you. Honestly there is not much that will want to tangle with Marneus and super friends and I would and have used that psychology to my advantage.

So like I agreed it's too early to say this is a power build but I wouldn't throw it out of contention yet. There was a time when people laughed at speed freaks, feral orks and dark eldar in general.

Drop podding anything will most surely go after your rhinos, not the LRC.

Id say its not a powerbuild because an avarge Jo cudnt pick it up and do well. You sound like you will do this list justice tho IMO which is what counts, really. '

Dont forget your tank commander.. he might end up running around contesting obj's too ya know!

I'll just explain why a list like this doesn't worry me for my two main tourney armies I run right now.

My first army is an all GK Daemonhunters list w/2 landraiders. It runs 3 10-man gkt's w/no upgrades, 2 standard landraiders, dreadnought, brother-captain w/psycannon, 1x3 GKT w/2 Psycannons, and 1x4 GKT squad w/2 psycannons.

This list would love to run into yours in a standard tourney. I'd nail both rhinos turn one between the landraiders lascannons and i'd whittle away your squads while staying mobile with all my units. Calgar and his super friends would kill one unit all game based on movement which means you'll lose.

Now my other list is Nidzilla which is 6 carnies, 12 warriors, 48 gaunts, and 20 hormagaunts.

This would be a little more difficult but not by much since i'll sacrifice a single big bug for the crusader and the rhinos again will be gone on turn one, or two at the latest. the hormagaunts will smash at least one if not two marine units before dying. Your super friends will again either be completely ignored or swamped w/6 carnies if you decide to keep them close to your other units.

All in all both of my take all comers list would welcome playing this list because even if your the best player i've ever played against it would mean a nice massacre and boost in my points.

Good luck to you at the bigger events. let us know how it goes though with pictures and more details than what you've posted in your latest "battle reports"

I'm confused, in your tactica, you talk about 2 tac squads, but your list only mentions 1... that.. or I'm hallucinating again. You also mention an assault squad that is vacant in the rest of the list.

I knew that the "this is the core" was vague... but I didn't realize how vague.

This list is much stronger with the extra tac and assault squads.

I think when people simply say that haunts will catch the Marines in close combat I have to ask a question... Do you think I would just stick them out there I'm the open. They will be shut up a couple turns then counter charged. The sniper scouts are there as a harassment troop to plink off some wounds and Telion can pick his targets out of a crowd. The carnifexez will have problems with Marneus and super friends. Together the two special charscters can drop one each turn and the assault terminators the same. My army is more mobile than yours and the LRC will mince bugs. Of course I would not be foolish enough to let your MCs charge the big tank.

For the GKTs I like my odds and have meltas to drop your landraiders if they come in close. I have much better armor than the GKTs plus all my attacks insta kill your characters. I believe I also have more scoring unite and can match your mobility. Taking out the LRC with your las is feasible but I wouldn't bet the next paycheck on it if I were you. I have fought GK plenty of times, know all the tricks and don't remember ever losing to them. My meltas are a better bet for tank busting as compared with your lascannons. I am not saying you can't destroy my tanks but there is a lot more to it than.

Can we get your full army list please? Your adding thing sin that I haven't seen before.

Even a link to it will suffice.

Here is the complete list (Marneus has tactical dreadnaught armor):

Marneus Calgar
Captain Lysander
6x assault terminator squad w. thunder hammers & storm shields
Landraider Crusader piloted by Chronus

10x Scouts split into 2 combat squads:
5x Scouts (incl. Telion) w. sniper rifles & heavy bolter (hellfire rounds)
5x Scouts w. combat blades & bolt pistols
Landspeeder Storm

10x tactical Marines w. Melta/melta combi-melta & power fist - rhino
10x tactical Marines w. Melta/melta combi-melta & power fist - rhino

G

Here's my big question: What do Calgar/Lysander/Chronus add to this list that couldn't be filled just as easily or better by another Crusader and 5-8 more assault terminators?

I understand the appeal of a S10 thunder hammer, but Calgar doesn't give you much except 5 more S8 attacks. You could cut some fat and run twice as many terminators with Vulkan for re-rolls and another Crusader. More bodies, more attacks, more options. I'd consider that many Termies to be a legit power list. What's the appeal of Calgar Superfriends that I'm not seeing?

Darnath is 200 points. Calgar is 260 points. The assault terminators are 280 points. I would have to drop both HQ to field another unit of terminators in a transport. So it is not as simple as you make it sound. But certainly if I could get six more assault terminators and another LRC by dropping one of the two HQ I would probably do it. That was my big answer.

G

Yeah but you've got Chronus in there as well. He's what, 70 pts? Total of 530-ish pts between 3 things?

Random HQ - 100 pts
LRC - 250
Assault Terms -200 min

So we're already pretty close just by dropping those options for other ones, lose BS5 and ignore stun/shaken but gain twice as many shots with two vehicles, lose 3A S10 and 5A S8 with rerolls but gain 10A at S8 in another squad.

You can drop one scout squad and Land Speeder since you've now got another mobile death fortress to trick out the HQ (Vulkan) or add more termis.

So the base list would look:

Vulkan
6xAssault Termis
7xAssault Termis
2xLRC w/multimelta
Tac squad with rhino
Tac squad with rhino

That's 1640 pts only, you can fill with Scout squads, attack bikes, or more Tacticals.

Do you feel it violates the "spirit" of your list in any way? I mean, they do practically the same thing, just one has another crusader and twice as many hammers carried by more bodies.

Tell me exactly what you would drop from the current list in exchange for another squad of terminators and LRC. It looks like you suggest dropping the scouts, landspeeder Storm, both of the original HQ (or one?), Telion and Chronus. Did I miss anything? I see your core is around 1600 points so I can add back scouts and the storm.

I have seen a lot of Vulkan lists already to be honest and am trying to do something a bit different. Thank you for your input! : )

G

If not Vulkan you could do Shrike or Khan, hell, you could even do a 100 pt captain and take another vanilla Crusader and 5x Assault Terminators! That'd more than double your original number of attacks with 2 more Raiders. Short on troops, but the rolling death raiders would suck up so much fire that most guys focusing on rhinos would end up dead before they got every last marine inside of them.

So I see what you're doing, but taking Lysander and Calgar really seems to me to be 460 points of "fluff/fun list", not optimized assault.

18 assault terminators in 3x raiders... it's so tempting that I might do it myself. If you make the smaller squad transport a Redeemer, then you even have gross anti-horde ability on top of their MC/Lash/Biker crushing power.

Thanks for the idea, I think I'm going to go buy some more plastic.

Lysander and Marneus are expensive but they can kill nob biker squads. The trick is to make the rest of the army synergize with them.

G

@GBF

My point with my GK statement was that your super squad would never see combat and that I would widdle down your low model count (I think my gk list actually outnumbers this list) over the course of 5-6 turns. My LR's would never get close enough to your melta guns because unlike your LR mine are based on range. Oh, and in case you didn't notice any weapon "instant" kills my characters since they only have one wound They are psycannon platforms that plink at range and kill thru attrition then possibly counter attack if it's needed.

As for the nid list what makes you think i'd let you charge my big bugs with your super squad? If you want to get that squad to the big bugs then happily the LRC is in range for me to charge with other big bugs. So congrats you'll kill two big bugs all game with that super squad while I out shoot a marine army with bugs. And how are you gonna widdle down the hormagaunts when they are behind other units and have a cover save?

Let me make my comments easier for you. How would you beat an army that had more mobile fire power than you, can keep the distance open and who will ignore your super squad while taking out the rest of the army since true line of sight means you really can't hide anymore?

Green Blow Fly wrote:Lysander and Marneus are expensive but they can kill nob biker squads. The trick is to make the rest of the army synergize with them.

G

11 Assault Terminators (equivalent in points to Marneus+Lysander) kills Nob Bikers much more easily than those two models with the advantage of far more attacks and wounds (and a better save than Marn). What am I missing with the fixation on Calgar?

Hulksmash wrote:
@GBF

My point with my GK statement was that your super squad would never see combat...
[/i]

Why is that? Are your landraiders faster than my LRC and rhinos? In table quarter deployment I could setup just across from your DZ and force you into a corner. I could setup the objective(s) such that if you sat in your corner you would automatically lose the mission.

...and that I would widdle down your low model count (I think my gk list actually outnumbers this list) over the course of 5-6 turns. My LR's would never get close enough to your melta guns because unlike your LR mine are based on range.
[/confident]

You are that your lascannons can stop my LRC? As I have pointed out above the mission could easily dictate conditions that force you to move onto objectives. You are counting on the best possible conditions for you to win.

As for the nid list what makes you think i'd let you charge my big bugs with your super squad? If you want to get that squad to the big bugs then happily the LRC is in range for me to charge with other big bugs. So congrats you'll kill two big bugs all game with that super squad while I out shoot a marine army with bugs. And how are you gonna widdle down the hormagaunts when they are behind other units and have a cover save?

I would love for you to charge me with your big bugs. Do you really think that your big bugs could run from my LRC all game?

It sounds like your game plan is to simply run away. I don't see that as a viable tactic in objective based missions.

G

sourclams wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Lysander and Marneus are expensive but they can kill nob biker squads. The trick is to make the rest of the army synergize with them.

G

11 Assault Terminators (equivalent in points to Marneus+Lysander) kills Nob Bikers much more easily than those two models with the advantage of far more attacks and wounds (and a better save than Marn). What am I missing with the fixation on Calgar?

I will ponder.



G

The synergy with Calgar & Lysander just isn't there IMO.

If the LRC's main goal is to get the Assault Terminator Squad & friends to the battlefront why pay 70 points for Chronos when you would be getting moveability for only 15 points with extra armor.

If you drop Calgar & Chronos then there are around 300 points to play with.

Why would you drop Calgar over Lysander?

G

I'd take Lysander over Calgar, if that were the only choice available to me, on the basis of greater survivability (3+ invuln) and usefulness of S10 Ap1 attacks against vehicles and AV14.

You missed the point and failed to answer the question. One type of 3 deployments helps you if you get the roll and choose to set up first. Wow, so your response to my strategy of fire and movement as well as unit isolation is based upon a 16% chance. And your telling me my strategy is based on ideal conditions?

I'll stop arguing with you now since you don't actually answer the questions I pose.

Oh, and i'd take lysander over calgar and drop both the other SC's to get more stuff, either speeders, attack bikes, or podding Ironclads.

Ironclads are very vulnerable to meltas the following shooting phase after they arrive via drop pods. I don't follow how you can ding my army and then says Ironclad... visions of attack bikes and landspeeders zooming up to couch you immediately come to mind. Any fast army can run circles around them.

I believe Lysander's hammer grants +1 against armor. Probably Vulkan and Lysander are the best combination... but again I want to do something different and do well.

G

I still don't know why you're not runnin 2 units of assault termies in 2 raiders and kantor for his + 1 A bubble. after this 20 scouts and 2 marine squds in rhinos woould work out nicely if you like put 2 combat squads of the scout squads in storms and use the other half as snipers. Then use mullti melat attack bikes to round out the list.

I would at least cosider it.

When I build an army the theme is very important. I would rather have the two best HQ rather than a lot of other stuff. It's supposed to be an extremely elite army.

G

Not that I am considering trying out this list, but I am interested in finding out how it does at a tournament.
GBF said he would be taking it in a week or so, so I would not pass judgement until then. I can understand the concern about "all the eggs in one basket" but those type armies tend to scare some players. Look at the monkey.........

GBF, please keep us updated on your tourney.

Rick

They were one of several options I put out there for you. If you read the post they were one of at least 3 quick options that came to mind.

Also you decide where the pod drops so odds are good you'll be smart enought to avoid landing next to a melta gun (though judging by the post quality to this point i do question this). And by the way if you used one, not saying you have to or that it's the best choice, it would increase the life span of your rhinos and LRC because it would be an immediate threat. And since your so worried about nob bikers it'd be great against them. It's a sacrificial unit that you use to keep the enemy off balance.

You just need to think before you....type i guess.

Good luck man, if i'm in florida next hurricane season i'll look you up and smash you up.

Could you tell us what your theme is? What are you trying to accomplish with your list?

I totally understand the elite part, if it works for you then go for it. Don't get me wrong, I like Calgar. However, in an assault based army I'd go with a number of other combinations before Lysander & Calgar.

With Lysander, 6 Assault Terminators, and as Terminator Chaplin you'd have one hard hitting, rerolling squad.

My personal favorite is Lysander with some grey knight terminators- Rerolling storm bolters and strength 6 power weapons hitting on inititive 4.