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A is only RAW if you choose to interpret it in a certain way. The same holds for B.

This means we the readers are voting on which interpretation of RAW is our favorite (both being valid).

I like B better - both because it is an easier way to interpret the rules as RAW and because it plays better in the game.

So I'm sitting here reading the rules on taking saving throws. It says...

"Having allocated the wounds, all of the models in the unit that re identical in gaming terms take their saving throws at the same time, in one batch. Casualties can then by chosen by the owning player from..."

"Finally, the player rolls separately for each model that stands out in gaming terms."

Doesn't the pinning rule call for casualties standing out? Let me ask a related question....

Can one unit firing on another unit ever cause more than one leadership test to it? For example:

A space marine squad is firing on a squad of chaos marines.

1. The space marines start by having the attached Tiberius (work with me) cast his 24" bubble of "Everyone runs away."
2. Simultaneously, the unit of space marines inflict 25% casualties to the chaos marines.
3. One of the weapons that caused a casualty was a pinning weapon.
4. The attached champion guy uses his flame templated "pass your leadership or die" skill thing.
5. Lets add in for giggles that one of the marines has a weapon that "Because of its gruesome nature, if it causes a casualty, will shake the morale of its enemies" and makes them take a leadership test.

With all those things happening simultaneously, from one unit in one shooting phase...

I see one pinning test.
How many leadership tests must be taken by the attacked unit?

If the answer is "one" then I understand the pinning rule as you guys are explaining it. One pinning check since all the saves and wounds happen simultaneously.

If the answer is "more than one" then I tentatively suggest that I'm right, since pinning weapons are specifically called out to be given unique treatment, and have each of their wounds inflict a pinning test.

I await knowledge! =)

Dashofpepper wrote:So I'm sitting here reading the rules on taking saving throws. It says...

"Having allocated the wounds, all of the models in the unit that re identical in gaming terms take their saving throws at the same time, in one batch. Casualties can then by chosen by the owning player from..."

"Finally, the player rolls separately for each model that stands out in gaming terms."

Doesn't the pinning rule call for casualties standing out?

You seem to have things backwards. You single different MODELS out when making saving throws, not each WEAPON that is different.

Can one unit firing on another unit ever cause more than one leadership test to it? For example:

A space marine squad is firing on a squad of chaos marines.

1. The space marines start by having the attached Tiberius (work with me) cast his 24" bubble of "Everyone runs away."
2. Simultaneously, the unit of space marines inflict 25% casualties to the chaos marines.
3. One of the weapons that caused a casualty was a pinning weapon.
4. The attached champion guy uses his flame templated "pass your leadership or die" skill thing.
5. Lets add in for giggles that one of the marines has a weapon that "Because of its gruesome nature, if it causes a casualty, will shake the morale of its enemies" and makes them take a leadership test.

With all those things happening simultaneously, from one unit in one shooting phase...

I see one pinning test.
How many leadership tests must be taken by the attacked unit?

If the answer is "one" then I understand the pinning rule as you guys are explaining it. One pinning check since all the saves and wounds happen simultaneously.

If the answer is "more than one" then I tentatively suggest that I'm right, since pinning weapons are specifically called out to be given unique treatment, and have each of their wounds inflict a pinning test.

I await knowledge! =)

First off, the 25% casualty morale check happens at the end of the shooting phase. For the rest of those things, Tiberius doesn't have 'everyone run away' anymore. I'm not sure what the flame weapon that calls on units to "pass a leadership test or die" thing is. I'm also, not sure why you're throwing in a fictitious example either.

But yes, if a unit has abilities that force a unit to take a Leadership test upon suffering a wound, etc, IMHO they would have to take multiple Leadership;morale tests, although I did run a poll before about similar situations:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/216362.page


and you can see that it came out with a pretty big split. It seems many people think that units should only be falling back once per phase, for example.

Yes, I know you single different models out when making saving throws.

The pinning rule singles different weapons out when taking casualties. I was trying to draw a parallel example. =p

Just to weigh in my opinion, a number of people seem to be voting for Option B on the basis that all shooting is resolved simultaneously, but I don't personally see simultaneous resolution as being at odds with immediate pinning test.

All that means to me is that, while you may roll in an order all the shots are happening at the same time, so anything which happens immediately following a shot would happen once all saving throws have been resolved.

I'm quite dubious about the results of the poll at the moment, with people indicating they both voted for and against A while under the impression it meant 1 test per wound, not per weapon. Then again, that's probably just me not wanting to accept I'm on the losing side of this argument.

Personally I play RAW unless it seems rediculous to both me and my regular opponents, and we rarely disagree. In this case it seems so straight forward to us that we honestly find it hard to believe people see the rules as saying anything other than A, but that's always the trouble with perspective and opinions.

I agree with your assessment. I realize that this is a HOW DO YOU PLAY IT? poll, but the majority of responses seem to be taking completely unrelated variables (simultaneous shooting, wound resolution) out of context when creating the basis of their argument for/against.

Perhaps they really feel that order of events is relevant to the situation somehow... I personally don't.

Person at GW (edit he's the manager if you wondering) i asked read the rule

"If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test. This is a normal Leadership test. . .As long as the tests are passed, a unit may be called upon to take multiple Pinning tests in a single turn, but if a unit has already gone to ground, no further Pinning tests are taken."

... and he said "that you take a pinning test per wound" ...

now me, I'm just getting confused. This is sooo far away from both RAW and RAI.

With all respect to the GW store manager, his input is completely beyond the scope of the rule. It's clearly stated to be per *weapon*, not wound, with some playing it per *unit*.

... he's a nice guy, he's normaly bang on for rules ... but it's not like i can turn round and go "No you've got it wrong it per weapon." ... he'd just tell me i was wrong ... but i thought that it'd be worth adding his veiw to the thread

Dashofpepper wrote:I voted for B, but the more I think about it, the more A sounds correct.

When a unit (say Crisis suits) has multiple weapons with varying stats, you roll to hit and wound with those weapons separately. The text for pinning weapons specifically notes that each weapon's actions needs to be individually accounted for. As such, you would need to roll each weapon separately to track its actions, the wounds that arise from it, and the pinning tests that come from it.

If I have a team of 3 snipers and it causes 2 wounds to a team of crisis suits that are equipped differently...you put one wound on the team leader, and a second wound on a drone. You roll the drone's save and fail. Rules as written here; you would then take a pinning test. Then you roll to save against the team leader, and fail that save as well. You take another pinning test.

1. The rule *specifically* calls out every weapon causing a pinning test.

2. It says, "As long as the tests are passed..." referring to a unit taking multiple pinning tests in a turn.

3. When you assign wounds to a unit, you're not actually just rolling a mass of dice; that's just a convenience taken when you have enough identical troopers to absorb the casualties. However, the wounds are being allocated per model,and since the weapon causing those wounds in this case is individually being called out in the rules, I would think that rather than rolling a mass of saves, this is a case where you need to allocate and roll separately.

Actually, you are mistaken. When a unit fires, all to hit rolls are to be made at the same time, the same goes with to wound rolls, and armor saves. Each step is done with all rolls of that step happening at the same time. So in your example, you roll the drone's save and the leader's save at the same time, not separately. People just break them down into separate rolls because it makes it much clearer what you're doing and you don't have to provide a color chart to your opponent to keep track of what all the different colored dice mean. I specifically chose B as the correct way because of the fact that all wounds happen at the same time. If wounds from one unit's shooting happened separately, then A would be correct, but that's not how the game works.

RAW is option (A)
and it doesn't slow the game down that much since all you need to roll of the the LD checks is paired sets of dice
(ie red pair, green pair etc.)
Then you can roll X Ld checks on the same squad at once.
anyhow, one wound from a carbine should have less of a chance to pin than six
and option (A) reflects this

As is often the case, it's as much in what is NOT said as in what IS said.

second paragraph, "If a unit ... suffers any unsaved wounds..." so if it takes any wounds it makes the pinning test, be it one or three or ten. Note that it doesn't say for EACH unsaved wound, just that if the unit takes wounds from a pinning weapon, they take the test. It doesn't actually say ANYWHERE that the unit takes a test for each wound suffered.

paragraph 4, "... a unit may be called upon to take multiple pinning tests in a single turn..." In a single turn, NOT from a single unit. They have created an entire paragraph to tell you that you may have to take multiple tests in a turn (as compared to the Ld test for taking 25% casualties, for which you take one per phase). However, nowhere in that paragraph does it say that you may be required to take multiple tests from a single unit, and that's the place it would be.

The answer is very clearly, and by RAW, option B, which is that the unit takes a single pinning test from each applicable unit.

"If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon"...

This is the only time that the rules reference what conditions may inflict a pinning test (i.e., the weapon). There is absolutely no reference to attacking units, or to number of wounds beyond "any".

What causes a pinning test? An unsaved wound from a pinning weapon. Everything beyond that point in the rules simply tells you what happens to the victim unit.

It's fine if you play it as per option B, but please do not try to claim the RAW unless they actually say what you are claiming they do.

I had a good discussion at my FLGS about this, and here's what we ended up with:

1. All saves are rolled at once (RAW). You don't roll one save, see if it causes a test, then roll another save....although we roll the dice in stages, it is only to simulate the real-time combat happening on the board. If a unit of Tau snipers fires on a unit of Space marines and causes 3 wounds and 2 casualties, those two sniper shots didn't come at separate times, causing two unique pinning tests, they happened simultaneously.

2. As a corollary, it is not possible to force multiple leadership tests on a single unit from a single unit's actions. Nor can you cause a unit to take multiple leadership tests (25% casualties) in a turn. As such, there's not even a precedent for arguing in favor of being able to cause multiple leadership tests from pinning from a single unit.

3. This isn't to say that multiple units of snipers don't cause multiple pinning tests, because they do: If three units of snipers each cause a a wound, then three pinning tests are taken, because they are separate units firing. However, a squad of 12 firewarriors with 12 pulse carbines can't cause 12 wounds, inflict 12 casualties, and then inflict 12 pinning tests.

I'm Tau, I'd love it if this were true!

For distinction, look at Ordnance weapons. A single large blast template pinning weapon causes 6 wounds, of which you fail 3. Those three wounds are taken and rolled for simultaneously. If they're taken on a complex unit, your closest realism is to have different colored dice and roll them at the same time. Those three failed wounds cause 1 pinning test.

With a unit of snipers or any other unit where multiple pinning weapons are being fired by one unit into another unit....those saves are *still* taken simultaneously, and can only inflict a single test from that single event.

Am I just crazy here? I don't read a single thing into the rule about when wounds occur. The only thing that matters is how many weapons caused unsaved wounds.

Why are you so concerned with the rules for simultaneous shooting? I don't see anything to warrant their involvement. The question isn't when wounds are dealt, it's how many weapons were used to inflict those wounds.

Could somebody explain this point of view to me?

asking for further clarification: under option (B)
would unit under fire from a squadron of 3 Leman Russ tanks
that receives a wound from two different Battle Cannons (in the same unit) need to take only one pinning check?

Belphegor wrote:asking for further clarification: under option (B)
would unit under fire from a squadron of 3 Leman Russ tanks
that receives a wound from two different Battle Cannons (in the same unit) need to take only one pinning check?

russes dont run in squadrons so this doesnt matter. it would be 2 tests though since they are 3 different tanks.

usernamesareannoying wrote:

Belphegor wrote:asking for further clarification: under option (B)
would unit under fire from a squadron of 3 Leman Russ tanks
that receives a wound from two different Battle Cannons (in the same unit) need to take only one pinning check?

russes dont run in squadrons so this doesnt matter. it would be 2 tests though since they are 3 different tanks.

so a battlecannon is a pinning weapon?

1hadhq wrote:

usernamesareannoying wrote:

Belphegor wrote:asking for further clarification: under option (B)
would unit under fire from a squadron of 3 Leman Russ tanks
that receives a wound from two different Battle Cannons (in the same unit) need to take only one pinning check?

russes dont run in squadrons so this doesnt matter. it would be 2 tests though since they are 3 different tanks.

so a battlecannon is a pinning weapon?

god, that one went right past me.

Battle and Demolisher cannons, no.

Earthshaker cannons, yes.

This question may become [more] relevant in the next IG codex where supposedly vehicle squadrons abound.

sorry, lets say Basilisk squadron (earthshaker cannons) instead.
(or Heavy Mortar, in the case of the possible Griffon)
I just tossed out the first ordnance weapon I thought of, and I apologize for my indiscretion.

The upcoming guard codex is one the reasons I brought this up.

just trying to preempt the issue
the rules for a vehicle squadron that causes pinning should be clear, regardless if there is an example of one or not.

sourclams wrote:Am I just crazy here? I don't read a single thing into the rule about when wounds occur. The only thing that matters is how many weapons caused unsaved wounds.

Why are you so concerned with the rules for simultaneous shooting? I don't see anything to warrant their involvement. The question isn't when wounds are dealt, it's how many weapons were used to inflict those wounds.

Could somebody explain this point of view to me?

The deal is, since it's hard to prove a RAI argument because of a pretty clear RAW statement, we are now forced to find examples of other RAW statements that make the pinning sentence inconsistent with other rules (such as rolling all wounds simultaneously). If we can find it conflicting with other rules, it adds more to our argument.

It's not like this is a close poll either, almost twice the votes have gone to option B. From this, I conclude that the majority of people are siding with a RAI approach. You can't tell me for one second, sourclams, that you would like to face an entire Tau pinning army (carbines and all) while playing a RAW approach...

to synchronicity
It's not all that bad. since for that pinning your losing rapid fire and dropping your range.
I'd say it would make carbine squads a viable choice, as opposed to what they are currently.

Well as mentioned before.. Eldar Ranger and Pathfinder Armies dealing out hefty ammounts of Rending and / or AP 1 Sniper Rounds as well.

But if these are the accecpted rules, there is no point holding on to an old edition midset when things have changed.

I voted B, but its hard to keep myself believeing I didnt do it just because its framiler and how its been from a previous edition, and using that to tell myself it must still be intended that way.

Here you go.

The rules set out a condition: if x then y. If x has been satisfied, then y occurs.

In order to satisfy x, at least one wound must be suffered from at least one pinning weapon.

Once x is satisfied, we go to y. This means we take a pinning test.

At no point does it say that we might need to do y more than once in a single unit's shooting. By taking a single pinning test after suffering a pinning wound, we have satisfied the rule.

Hence option B can just as easily be justified as RAW as option A.

The only reason there is an option A is 'from a pinning weapon'. Without this it becomes a single test per firing unit...

... with it there it sounds like multiple test are wanted

As it stands i lean towards it being multiple test (but house rules and what not we don't, do it) ... If i was going to bet on the out come of this I'd say that its a typo and it should be weapon/s (pinning weapons and you could argue that one pinning weapon wouldn't pin)

FYI... John Spencer from ask the rules boys agrees with option B.

Hello,
If the 10 snipers are all in one unit then you would take 1 test. If they are in multiple units, you should take one test per unit that caused a casualty.

Thanks!
John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist
custserv@games-workshop.com
Or visit us online at:
www.games-workshop.com

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Q) a unit of 10 snipers shoot a unit of guard and the guard take 4 wounds. Should I make 4 pinning checks or 1?

Although option A would make my mortar crews happy, B is how I've played it so far.

B clearly if a unit can only take on Morale check a phase then it follows that a unit can only take one pinning test in a shooting phase as it is a leadership based test.

Having read the original thread that caused this poll i must say that the mortars/pulse carbines/sniper rifles/whatever ALL hit at the same time on the suffering unit, with casualties being caused AT THE SAME TIME. So the survivors count their dead once and proceed with the battle (or running away). One Ld check per attacking UNIT in my games....

99MDeery wrote:B clearly if a unit can only take on Morale check a phase then it follows that a unit can only take one pinning test in a shooting phase as it is a leadership based test.

This is not correct. Units would take at least one pinning test per pinning attacking unit whether you play it A or B.