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Of course, there's nothing wrong with WM/H being a WAAC game.

In fact, I wholeheartedly support PP for pushing their game that way precisely because it drives more differentiation between the various game systems.

And they're doing Armybooks! Awesome!

So who wants to get a pool going on what they'll call them instead of Codexes or Armybooks?

-Grimoires?
-Indexes?
-Arcanas?

Cast your vote now!

ShumaGorath wrote:

At its core I think thats because of the tremendous set creep that was present in that game. The power creep in warmachine makes the power creep in 40k look tiny and insignificant. A player using only the first two or three books can not compete. Period. He will be trashed. The reason for this is because the balancing mechanisms in that game were placed via power creep upgrades to units (IE infantry additions, jack replacements, and caster upgrades). There is a definitive and easily followed power curve. The game really needed a reset.

When you say creep I think you really mean that newer things completely trump older things
and I've never seen that to be the case. Armies I've played against have a mix of
models from across the game, which is what you want. Why release an expansion
when no one will want the models?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Of course, there's nothing wrong with WM/H being a WAAC game.

In fact, I wholeheartedly support PP for pushing their game that way precisely because it drives more differentiation between the various game systems.

I agree, its nice to see a game company that has a clear focus on exactly how their game is designed to be played.

My only problem is many of the people who play that style. I had no problem playing friends in win at any cost type matches with Warmachine, it was actually rather fun and intense, but there's no way in hell I would have played in an event or really anyone else outside my group of friends, too much emotion and e-peen on the line.

This is probably a good time to put a rather large force of basic Cryx on the market.

carmachu wrote:Its VERY soon for Hordes however. Hordes is only what? 2 years old?

Hordes was released in February 2006, so it's been three years.

malfred wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

At its core I think thats because of the tremendous set creep that was present in that game. The power creep in warmachine makes the power creep in 40k look tiny and insignificant. A player using only the first two or three books can not compete. Period. He will be trashed. The reason for this is because the balancing mechanisms in that game were placed via power creep upgrades to units (IE infantry additions, jack replacements, and caster upgrades). There is a definitive and easily followed power curve. The game really needed a reset.

When you say creep I think you really mean that newer things completely trump older things
and I've never seen that to be the case. Armies I've played against have a mix of
models from across the game, which is what you want. Why release an expansion
when no one will want the models?

Because you see so many ironclads and slayers. And gunmages without captains. Because skarre got played after the bomb got erratad and captain free banethralls came out. Honestly, the vast majority of the first book is outdated. Only a few of the jacks are still useable in any fashion, and most of the infantry is brutally underpowered without their neat little addons that got heaped on in the later releases. New things don't completaly trump older things, but they don't have too. Being just a little bit better is enough to ensure that the older jacks will never see a table again.

I agree that the unique warjacks and character units went totally crazy in
Legends, but units without their goodies would mean that the game hadn't changed
or expanded so I don't understand the complaint about that.


Stuff from Prime I still see played:

Haley
Long Gunners
Trenchers
Sorscha
Vlad
Widowmakers
Kreoss
Severius
Choir
Redeemer
Holy Zealots
Knights Exemplar
Deneghra
Skarre
Deathrippers
the other chicken jack (not defiler)
Mechanithralls
Skarlock
Eiryss



Yes, they need their unit attachments and such, but I'd rather they have those
upgrades because they were release in expansions. Now with 2.0 they're included
in the game from the start.

What kind of expansion did you want? One from which people didn't use stuff for their armies?

I will agree w/ Manfred here in the fact that there are still plenty of things from the early books that are used very often. Having said that...of course newer things are going to be as good/better than some older stuff because that is how a gaming company makes money They have to have new stuff to sell us and get people excited about different combos.

Plus some of those expansion units never really see the light of day, outside "friendly" play. I applaud PP for taking the stance they have on there game and the way they push/run there company. They have a fairly solid track record of responding to there forums and being pretty open about what is going on

<thumbs up> I hope they succeed.

I'm kinda happy about this. There are too many exceptions to core rules, too many odd combos and it's daunting for someone who has played the game for a while, I can only imagine what a new player coming in feels like.

I'm glad to see 'Jacks get a buff, it'll be nice to get back to having machines in Warmachine. Hopefully it'll be a good new version and everything will run much more smoothly.

Having triple Slayer Cryx, if the reboot makes them playable, that'd be nice.

Ghaz wrote:Hordes was released in February 2006, so it's been three years.

And by late 2010 when the Hordes book is released it will have beeen four and a half years.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Having triple Slayer Cryx, if the reboot makes them playable, that'd be nice.

I've never gone in for spam myself but the Slayer is the cheapest Cryx Helljack that can perform all the power attacks so is likely to benefit greatly from them being easier to perform.

The removal of the 'disabled' status works as well as I hope then the low armour Slayer will benefit greatly from that too.

MM, I am also excited and will try to get the rules from the beta. Hopefully they will also include updates for rules and statcards for at least the basic prime units.

I have not been playing very long, but I have to say that I love jacks and the things they can do. Thing is, infantry is better then jacks. Infantry should stand a chance against jacks, but they should not trump jacks on all fronts. Heavy infantry (designed for taking on jacks) I have no problem with, but even "light" infantry will cream most jacks if they are not buffed up the whazoo...

I'm just glad they didn't call it Metal Kombat. I'd have to laugh at that.

Hmm. Interesting timing for the announcement. I wonder what that will do for sales of the next Hordes expansion that's due out in a couple of weeks!

I think they did it now because doing it after Metamorphosis releases would have been bad PR. Now, people who dont want to invest the book knowing its shelf life has been truncated by the update, have time to cancel their preorders, etc.

Hopefully they kept their costs down by limiting the print run, then.

I'm getting more excited for this as well. As long as they're serious about feedback, don't overcompensate in the process of retooling the lists (i.e. 'we hit Sorscha and IFP with the nerfhammer but now all your Marauders are Uber!) then I think it will be fine.

Not sure I like the force book idea; I liked having all the rules for all the units in one release in the same book, but as long as the main book and the cards give you what you need, I'll be okay.

What kind of expansion did you want? One from which people didn't use stuff for their armies?

I would prefer expansions that didn't require new purchases every edition to stay at all competitive. It's a CCG format in a custom minis game. 40k at least only releases a new codex once every four years or more (usually a lot more). I don't have to "keep up" with current editions. When heroclix did this I didn't mind, heroclix are a fraction of the cost. When Magic the gathering does this I don't mind, because I can make tons of decks with my new cards, and its still a fraction of the cost.

WARMACHINE balanced its game with its new editions. It balanced its infantry and jacks by coming out with new ones to one up/improve the old ones. It didn't start with a balanced game, and it refused to alter points or stats to reflect the true values of its units. Its too expensive and too competitive for this to be an enjoyable format for many players (myself as an example).

With the restart hopefully they can patch the issues they started with and new expansions will expand options rather than require purchases.

I'm still waiting to see if this is 'rebalance all the existing stuff but the game is essentially the same' or if the game is taking a dramatic change like 2nd to 3rd edition 40k.

I'm excited for the reset as well. As a player who decided I already invested over $500 into cygnar and am not buying new units every time they come out I notice my game play has gone downhill simply becasue I do not update the new models when everyone else is. I can still pull out wins ocassionally, but there are so many new units that trump old ones that I have to use the old power lists to even be competitive. My main complaint is that warjacks are almost a hinderance in most cases infantry eat them alive. They shoudl be the focus of the game and a reset that brings them back in line and balances the creepers out will be beneficial to the overall game play experience.

I doubt it will stop the creep entirley, but for a while things will be where I think they should be and if they fix the OMG infantry units so having a jack is actually useful again the game could regain its place as more than a passing hobby when I need a break from GW games.

Just the mention about takign penalties away from specail manouvers for jacks makes the game more appealing. It was always a bummer to have so many cool otpions that you never wanted to use becasue you would drop to mat 3 or mat 1 on an average combat jack.

Meph

stonefox wrote:

dietrich wrote:PP is just like GW now! The End is Nigh!

Sure they're the same, if GW did this:
The public will get their first look at the WARMACHINE Mk II rules in April through an open field test, allowing players to become familiar with the changes while providing feedback that will assist Privateer Press in making final adjustments to WARMACHINE Mk II before going to press.

I think GW has done 'teaser' articles discussing new rules in the past... I won't say they listen to the feedback much, though. Then again, I still think GW needs to really do a true full overhaul on 40k instead of the 3rd-5th edition rewrites and patches.

I wonder if they will alter points and stuff? Allows bigger games to be played, and sells more models.

skrulnik wrote:I remember hearing about not phasing out models before, VOID did this also, but completely redesigned the lines when they changed to VOID1.1

I'd also say there's a difference between 'upgrading' models and 'obsoleting' models. Squats, Eldar with lasguns, and simialr have been obsoleted and this is something that really should be avoided. OTOH, I don't know if GW would still be around if they still only sold the original Space Marine plastics. Sure, there's some nostalgia, but the proportions and level of detail wouldn't be competitive today. But you cans till (mostly) use them in the game if you find a sprue.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I wonder if they will alter points and stuff? Allows bigger games to be played, and sells more models.

They're altering points, but no one knows yet what that means.

Balance wrote:

skrulnik wrote:I remember hearing about not phasing out models before, VOID did this also, but completely redesigned the lines when they changed to VOID1.1

I'd also say there's a difference between 'upgrading' models and 'obsoleting' models. Squats, Eldar with lasguns, and simialr have been obsoleted and this is something that really should be avoided. OTOH, I don't know if GW would still be around if they still only sold the original Space Marine plastics. Sure, there's some nostalgia, but the proportions and level of detail wouldn't be competitive today. But you cans till (mostly) use them in the game if you find a sprue.

I probably wouldn't be playing this game if squats were still around. There's an acceptable level of camp, and thats way beyond it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I wonder if they will alter points and stuff? Allows bigger games to be played, and sells more models.

Bigger?....games?....what? There are 1k games, which are huge, at various Tournaments and 750+ isn't pretty common. Can't really get much bigger....they seem to be doing a overhaul on rules(needed) on point values(needed) and clearing up a lot of things. All pluses in my book

Personally I am thrilled by the prospect of a new edition. About a year and a half ago my friends and I stopped playing Warmachine and Hordes altogether for pretty much the same reasons PP acknowledged in their press release. For us it became too concentrated around gimmicks and super combo's. For all the variety in the game there were a very limited number of lists that were considered uber competitive. Considering there are about 10 - 15 of us and many of us have 1 or 2 complete factions up through Superiority, all of us are really hoping these changes are enough to bring us back. I am really hoping that they make Jacks central to the game and infantry plays more of supporting role. Maybe something where Jacks are required to win or infantry is pretty lame on it's own but becomes better when working in concert with a jack. Or maybe casters have a minimum number of jacks they have to take. I don't know, but for me it is the Jacks that separate this game from just being another infantry skirmish game.

PS: I imagine they will be streamlining the combat system to make it faster so bigger games are easier to play.

Vash1313 wrote:Personally I am thrilled by the prospect of a new edition. About a year and a half ago my friends and I stopped playing Warmachine and Hordes altogether for pretty much the same reasons PP acknowledged in their press release. For us it became too concentrated around gimmicks and super combo's. For all the variety in the game there were a very limited number of lists that were considered uber competitive. Considering there are about 10 - 15 of us and many of us have 1 or 2 complete factions up through Superiority, all of us are really hoping these changes are enough to bring us back. I am really hoping that they make Jacks central to the game and infantry plays more of supporting role. Maybe something where Jacks are required to win or infantry is pretty lame on it's own but becomes better when working in concert with a jack. Or maybe casters have a minimum number of jacks they have to take. I don't know, but for me it is the Jacks that separate this game from just being another infantry skirmish game.

PS: I imagine they will be streamlining the combat system to make it faster so bigger games are easier to play.

One of the reasons I don't play much Hordes is the Beast requirement. I picked
factions based on the infantry, and I love the infantry of the things that I play.

For me what separates this game is the background. I never really thought of it
as skirmish.