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During a chinwag about it, my local Manager pointed out something worth discussing.

SBG, because everything moves and fights individually, had a definite ceiling of when the game becomes incredibly clunky. Now, much debate of where this level lies I'm sure, and I'll be the first to admit that I don't know enough about the SBG to have much of an opinion there, but, wild stab in the dark time, I would imagine once a Mumak gets involved, and the other guy is using mostly infantry, thats about the mark.

And yet it still sells pretty strongly in all markets. Now, look at the prices of the boxed sets. Plastic Models, £15 for 24 assorted models. So, I spend £30, and I have a force ready to rumble in SBG with the addition of a blister or two. So I reckon £60 is realistic price tag for a large enough force to enjoy the game.

£60, in wargaming terms, is not really a lot of money. But with WotR, I'd say an existing player with aforementioned £60 force need only spend around the same to have a decent sized WotR force. (remember people, this is nowhere near accurate enough to be taken as Gospel. Just stabbing the dark for illustrations sake. Feel free to correct me if you know better, or have a stab in a different direction!

So, if half the people already actively playing pick up WotR, thats worth it right there, and as the game grows (going on my experience, there is absolutely no reason, barring idiotic mass snobbery from LotR hateboys) more and more people will be attracted to it.

I'm rather excitied about this one- we've already started playing a bunch of 500pt games- and its dirt cheap to get started at that level- and has been great fun even at such small levels

I'm reeeeaaally curious about how things like the vault warden teams and moria goblin drum will work.

Weeeell.....

The High Elf Glavies give you +1 to hit (making them pretty damned tasty I have to say)

Goblin Drum I'd imagine will increase the F value of Gobbos or perhaps allow them an increased chance of rallying should they become disordered etc. Short? I dunno!

Vault Wardens will possibly just have a really high D value, and perhaps always count as being in defendable obstacles?

Due to the blissful simplicity of it all, it means even a seemingly 'meh' special rule, if applied judiciously will make a massive difference.

Pikes, for example, aren't *that* great against Infantry, seeing as all they do is take away charge bonuses. BUT, against Cavalry? They are losing the 6 bonus attacks for charging. That is pretty bitching really!

Seems like a very solid game. But GW *will* downgrade support at some point to refocus on WH40K/WHFB. It will still exist, much like LoTR is still in the line. But it will not get the same support as the other two lines. Thinking it will replace their Fantasy cash cow is highly optimistic (to put it lightly). About the best I think we can hope for is that some of the better rules ideas (alternating phases, random charges, cav harges) creep into fantasy just like some WM/Hordes and FOW rules crept into 40K (templates hits, going to ground, etc.).

Nah. I just don't see it.

However, WotR is an interesting project for GW. I honestly struggle to think of another, mainstream, commercial wargame where a large portion of the target audience will have a pre-existing force ready to go, with just a simply addition of some movement trays (And to GW's credit, in the rulebook they offer their movement trays as an alternative to making your own, and even describe how to make your own).

Thus, I feel that comparissons are always going to be slightly out of kilter, due to it's (to my knowledge, as ever please feel free to correct me) unique status.

I really don't see support for this dropping. It plays beautifully, even though we were constantly checking up rules etc as we played. Thus, it should be a good seller. Certainly as a player who was largely ambivalent toward LotR, I am putting serious thought not into whether or not I am going to do an army, but which faction I want to go with. Looking at Fallen Kingdoms, as to me they have the most variety (Harad, Easterlings, Khand and Mahud) so I won't need to worry about having to continually swap out different allies to keep things fresh.

But as I keep saying, I am perfectly aware that a fair amount of my enthusiasm at this stage is entirely down to 'ooh! Shiny!'itis.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But as I keep saying, I am perfectly aware that a fair amount of my enthusiasm at this stage is entirely down to 'ooh! Shiny!'itis.

I can see why you would be cautions MDG. To an extent so am I.

I've been overjoyed at the positive reception from almost all who've tried it out though it will be interesting to see whats going on in 6 months.

I actually think that one of the games biggest strengths will also be one of its curses. Namely that all lists are already present in the main book.

Now the advantages of this are obvious.

1) Players wont need to purchase another supplement that may well be obsolete within a year. Meaning player spend their saving on toys!

2) No codex creep, armies have been balances simultaneously meaning no sudden changes for one faction that could upset the balance of the entire game.

3) The game becomes low maintenance. Not need for a design team to constantly update the rules for each new faction to keep things balanced. All WD needs to produce new ideas for scenarios and campaigns. Energy can be focused on new miniatures and hopefully new plastics. GW take note! If you release plastic Kataphrats, Khand and Dunendlings I will throw allot of money your way!

However this may have a downside.

Having a new shiny supplement round the corner keeps interest in the game. This can be seen in WFB and 40K having no need to release anything new may result in interest falling no matter how good the game may be. Gamers (no offense intended) are a notoriously fickle bunch and are easily distracted by the next big thing! Warmaster for example had no need for any expansions and now is in SG hell despite it being one of GW's best ever rule sets.

I may just be being paranoid though.

I think it's a valid fear. That's why I'm just gonna enjoy in now, and not worry. I wanna play with lots of excellent plastic miniatures.
Actually, this game may be a complete turning point for me- I might actually make an elf army...

Well, there are quite a few bits and bobs in the book which don't yet have models, including the rock hard Storm Giant. Well, Giant of some description, Cave Drakes, various new Infantry and Cavalry, so there are still goodies to come.

Also, interestingly, Warmachine seemed to do okay with all the factions in a book, and then releasing new additions altogether in seperate volumes.

Now, this is pure idle speculation, so please don't treat is a rumour, but seeing as GW have a pretty free reign given to them by the Tolkein Estate, perhaps we will see supplements covering different Ages of Middle Earth? Would be one way to keep fresh things ticking.

I would be all over a Second Age supplement.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Now, this is pure idle speculation, so please don't treat is a rumour, but seeing as GW have a pretty free reign given to them by the Tolkein Estate, perhaps we will see supplements covering different Ages of Middle Earth? Would be one way to keep fresh things ticking.

Those older Elven armies (As seen in the Silmarillion) would be far more powerful than anything see in LotR. Does GW really have free reign with all of the Middle Earth stuff? I thought just the LotR and Hobbit.

Daft thing is, GW must have something planned for it. I mean, this is a Hardback, full colour production. That costs, not to mention the time spent developing the rules set.

Now, beyond the shiny new models which will be coming in, it's unclear how they are going to proceed with this.

Perhaps they will do scenario books, siege rules etc. There is scope for expansion, but what they go for, I dunno!

Seige Rules are an obvious point for expansion, a proper, well thought out campaign book could be brilliant, books for different realms I would also like to see (gaming in Mordor, or the Misty Mountains, or wherever.)

I think there's a good amount of room for expansions and stuff.

Lagduf wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Now, this is pure idle speculation, so please don't treat is a rumour, but seeing as GW have a pretty free reign given to them by the Tolkein Estate, perhaps we will see supplements covering different Ages of Middle Earth? Would be one way to keep fresh things ticking.

Those older Elven armies (As seen in the Silmarillion) would be far more powerful than anything see in LotR. Does GW really have free reign with all of the Middle Earth stuff? I thought just the LotR and Hobbit.

Rumour has it that Christopher Tolkein isn't all that fussed for flogging the Silmarillion rights. But, rights to make models of the stuff described there in, well that might be a different story. Who knows at this stage?

But it would be a pretty decent coup for GW to bag those rights and make the armies available.

The Silmarillion would be a pretty god awful film anyway. I mean, Tolkien never really wrote it for publication, and it truncates.

GW needs to put out Plastic Uruk Hai Crossbowmen.

PRecisely, so just releasing models for things mentioned in it wouldn't detract from the overall work, or it's predecessors.

But it would be one hell of a draw.

And on the subject of timing....when is The Hobbitt expected in cinemas? Is it 2010 or 2011? I think GW have been quite canny in their timing of this. 1 or 2 years bedding in for the game, getting lots of people involved, ready to harnass the wave of increased interest the films will no doubt introduce....

I agree, the silmarillion is pretty well suited as a wargame setting.
There'll only be increased interest if the Hobbit film is any good. I'm very skeptical.

It has pedigree though. LotR MASSIVELY popular. Peter Jackson helming again, Ian McKellen back as Gandalf. Even if the film isn't that great, it will still be a box office smash.

Look at Episode One of Star Wars. Absolutely piss weak (apart from the 3 way Lightsabre fight, which kicked arse) but still took a stupid amount of money both in ticket sales and merchandising.

I like the Hobbit more than LOTR (and wierdly, a wargame of it would be much more suited to a skirmish system than LOTR) so I'll be upset if they make any stupid changes. There was a lot wrong with the Two Towers especially that irritates me whenever I watch the LOTR film trilogy.
But you may be right, there may be a lot of interest either way.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It has pedigree though. LotR MASSIVELY popular. Peter Jackson helming again, Ian McKellen back as Gandalf. Even if the film isn't that great, it will still be a box office smash.

Actually MDK PJ is only producing the Hobbit. The man at the helm is Guillermo del Toro whose works include Pans Labyrinth, Hellboy 1&2 and Blade 2. So no need to worry as he's clearly a man who knows how to create great fantasy films with memorable characters. Apparently Ron Perlman is set to get a role.

As for the Silmarillion I think for the time being GW has enough on its plate with just LotR, I agree the potential for expansion is massive and I hope that GW give the game the long term support I think it will deserve.

I think if keeps releasing new plastics we will defiantly see interest in the game rising. I can even see plastic Dunendlings and Khand (Please GW release these!) making there way into many a Chaos Warrior army.

I know the film licence is currently set to expire in 2011 and currently hasn’t been renewed. I imagine however the reason is not due to any desire on the part of GW to kill the game off. It's more likely that they wish to draw up an entirely new contract which will encompass a licence for the Hobbit.

I realise that having the Tolkien estates licence means they can theoretically carry on with the game even without the new line license. But it would also mean recsulpting the majority of the LotR range and re-releasing the majority of the rulebooks/supplements to remove any imagery related to the films. A monumental task. Given that without the license they would also loose out on the Hobbit imagery (Which will be a HUGE boost) I think GW would be insane to keep the game going without the new line license. Both GW and New Line made a fortune from the last license.

Da Boss wrote:The Silmarillion would be a pretty god awful film anyway. I mean, Tolkien never really wrote it for publication, and it truncates.

Agreed It would be like making a film of the Bible! It isn't a Novel a shouldn't be read as such. I like to think of it as a reference book. Its nice to dip into every now and again but only for a few pages at a time!

Lagduf wrote:GW needs to put out Plastic Uruk Hai Crossbowmen.

I agree with this as crossbowmen are an essential part of an Uruk Hai force in WotR. However the only option for this would be if the entire Uruk Hai sprue was redesigned. Currently it’s a 20 man boxed set. 10 x HW & Shields and 10x Pike. It would make sense as WotR is based around multiples of 8 to redesign the box to be 8 x HW and Shields, 8 x Pike and 8 x Crossbowmen. As the majority of LotR boxed sets are 24 man sets it does seem to be a tad unfair to the poor old Uruk player for them to get short changed with 2 and half companies per box as opposed to 3 compaines for most other factions.

With regard to the Uruk Hai, they are on of the older sets, so they may well be ripe for a resculpt as is, so including Crossbows would not be a.bad idea!

Really looking forward to seeing how things pan out with this game.

Do the Uruk Hai have any bowmen of there own?

Crossbows don't function the same as bows in the game (i don't think you can fire if you've moved) so i can see having both in a force. I mean as an Uruk player you'd probably want bows too, right?

I imagine i'll probably do an allied Isengard + Mordor force as I have the most of those. I think I have a few companies worth of both.

I'd love to do a WotR Pelenor Fields game. Book 'fields game, not movie 'fields.

Uruk Hai Scouts have bows I believe.

If the Silmarillion were expanded, it would make at least four books, if not five. Armies of Balrogs, Dragons and Elves fighting each other? It would make the War of the Ring look like an afterthought.

And yet, as long as the points scale appropriately (Tank Squaring as an example) there is no reason I would not take on an army of Balrogs with Infantry. Clearly, given as they got chinned historically, there is no reason it would not be a fair fight.

I am so fingers crossed about The Silmarillion being picked up to produce different ages. It would after all kick ass!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And yet, as long as the points scale appropriately (Tank Squaring as an example) there is no reason I would not take on an army of Balrogs with Infantry. Clearly, given as they got chinned historically, there is no reason it would not be a fair fight.

I am so fingers crossed about The Silmarillion being picked up to produce different ages. It would after all kick ass!

[OT comment removed by mdoerator.]

Well thank you Malfred. I think we've gathered your not fussed by the game, so you could always avoid mindless trolling and just leave it be.

Or is that too much to ask?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Well thank you Malfred. I think we've gathered your not fussed by the game, so you could always avoid mindless trolling and just leave it be.

Or is that too much to ask?

You misunderstand.

Sorry, but I AM interested in the game. I joke because the Lord of the Rings and game
mechanics in general are funny to me, but that joking isn't an indication that I want to
sink your thread. If you really think I'm trolling, then Report a Mod and I'll get whatever
I deserve, but I assure you that the jokes are made out of my interest in the material
(both the fiction and the game) rather than whatever it is you think it is.

I have followed as many of the threads as I can on these forums that relate to WotR,
and have even asked questions in some of them. I'm sorry that your thread inspired
pokes at Orlando Bloom (rawr) and the idea that you could buy a bridge and give it to
Gandalf as a game mechanic for dealing with a Balrog.