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ChaseMacKenzie wrote:By current squadron rules your three LRs will be firing at the same target and Immobilized = Destroyed

*I've got a strong feeling that the squadron commander tank allows you to split the fire of the squad and for that cost could even negate the squadron rule.

*With a commander they might be able to make use of some variant of the orders rules.

*Note this is speculation

I've said it before and will again. To Anybody that hates this codex before actually seeing it. I'll buy your storm troopers, chimeras, &LRBT ....negotiations start at .10 cents on the dollar but the offer is good only before the sneak peek comes out the 21st of march.

Has anybody found out what the cost of a vet squad deepstriking w/meltas is going to be. Don't be surprised if it really close to the storms. I've also noticed that there has been no rumor that you have to buy a whole 10-man squad of the stormies as opposed to the vets. Methinks there may be some devilery afoot.

+1

I still think the new codex sounds very promising. We don"t know how tank squadrons will work, we don't knwo exact rules (hell even points! ) for storm troops and ogryns... Some rumours are good, some bad. I won't even judge when holding the codex: I'll judge when I've played a few battles. For all the cheese that was cried about orcs, they're beatable... Hell, I finished fourth with my IG in a 60-man tournament just this Februay. No judging till you've played the codex folks!

6 man special weapon team with three plasma guns. 45 points for the plasma (hopefully) 30 points for the guys (hopefully) so 75 points. Double tapping and while under the "shoot you bastards" order. They will take out 4 marines on average.
10 stormies with two plasmas so 190 points, double tapping under the "shoot you bastards" order = 9 dead marines, assuming no cover.

Not to mention their own special orders... Almost worth the points at that rate .

focusedfire wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:By current squadron rules your three LRs will be firing at the same target and Immobilized = Destroyed

*I've got a strong feeling that the squadron commander tank allows you to split the fire of the squad and for that cost could even negate the squadron rule.

*With a commander they might be able to make use of some variant of the orders rules.

*Note this is speculation

I would put money on this that you are right. We all know nothing HAS to make sense or be logical, but having a commander upgrade that allows you to make a leadership test to attack a different target doesn't seem far fetched.

I'm thinking that while Lumbering Behemoth is going to get a lot of folks excited about blazing away with a full contingent of sponsons in addition to their turret Ordnance, I think that the most efficient use of LRBTs is going to be the continued use of sponson-free LRBTs. Maybe upgrading the hull HB to a LC if you're low on AT in other parts of the list. But really, with various price increases going on, IG are going to be looking at where to save costs. We often talk about "will a model make its points back" - I think that's a good basic analysis to make. But I think we'll need to take it one step further and say, "will model X make more points back than model Y" (in this case where model X is a LRBT with sponsons and Y is a LRBT without.) I mean, at 20 points for HB sponsons, if you take 6 LRBTs - if you go without sponsons, you're saving enough points to be most of the way to another LRBT.

Considering the fact that I just finished converting up 3 Hellhounds, I'm a little disappointed by the cost increase. But everyone knew the Hellhound was in for a nerf. It was just a matter of how hard they hit it with the nerfbat. I keep seeing conflicting rumors about whether or not the Inferno Cannon gets its 24" range - if it doesn't, then I'll be pretty disappointed. If it keeps the 24" range, then I think it will just be mildly overpriced.

I'm more at a loss over what to do about my Demolisher, though. Full las/plas loadout is going to be expensive. It always was one of the biggest points sinks in an IG army - now, even more so. I've heard some folks contemplating going back to MM sponsons on their Demolishers what with the Lumbering Behemoth rule, but I don't think that really solves the problem. Yes, it's cheaper. But the reason you have las/plas is for some decent ranged fire on the chassis.

Some of the artillery looks pretty good, too, although I haven't done a full think-through of the options yet. I've always loved how the Hydra looks, and at 75 points a pop, they're one of the cheaper models. But depending on what the weapons loadout winds up at - whether it's 2x twin-linked or 4x will really effect my decision. At any rate, I've got 5 Chimeras I was planning to use for troop transport. But with arty looking tempting, I may need to convert up some using my Chimeras.

Korcheski wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:By current squadron rules your three LRs will be firing at the same target and Immobilized = Destroyed

*I've got a strong feeling that the squadron commander tank allows you to split the fire of the squad and for that cost could even negate the squadron rule.

*With a commander they might be able to make use of some variant of the orders rules.

*Note this is speculation

I would put money on this that you are right. We all know nothing HAS to make sense or be logical, but having a commander upgrade that allows you to make a leadership test to attack a different target doesn't seem far fetched.

Or it is entirely possible that the command tank confers the ability to ignore shaken/stunned results on the damage table ala Apoc.
Would make the tank squadron a bit more resilient....

Don't know how Leadership Test would work on a vehicle. But it would be easy enought to make a rule just stating that it occurs.

Kinda like how the Tau vehicles can split fire if you take the target lock upgrade. (Always bothered me that the vehicle and crisis suit multi-track and target locks were same name but different purposes. I always end up having to explain it to opponents.)


@ foil- Nice mathhammer there. Effectively shows the point.

@ Third,

Squadrons already ignore stunned results as per the BRB.

New question: Do we know a points cost for a vox upgrade yet?

Edit: Ninja'd

Necros wrote:So, fluff-wise, what's the difference between conscripts and penal guys? Are the conscripts convicted felons that they just gave guns to? Are the penal legion fellas just hive gangers that wanna help out?

Conscript = a person drafted into the military. Usually a common citizen who is required by law (like the USA's draft laws) to serve a mandatory term in the military if called to do so. Conscription and the draft are the same thing. They are usually trained to a minimum level as a soldier and are not professional military types.

Penal trooper = convicted criminals that are either forced to serve as troops or are given the opportunity to serve in lieu of being sent to prison. May or may not have as much training as a conscript. Some members of the French Foreign Legion might be considered "penal" troops, as they joined to hide from some sort of criminal investigation, but the majority wouldn't be any better (and probably much worse) than conscripts in quality. If you've watched the "Dirty Dozen" movies, those would qualify as penal troops, though highly trained ones.

Saldiven wrote:
Penal trooper = .

Good night, everybody!

CommissarKhaine wrote:we don't knwo exact rules (hell even points! ) for storm troops and ogryns...

We know the points costs for STs and Ogryns, 16 and 35, respectively. These are as solid as rumors go, nobody is attempting to contradict them. The only thing we don't know about Ogryns is whether or not the Bonehead will be an automatic upgrade or an additional cost, and whether or not that Bonehead can take wargear of any kind. If the answer to the latter question is "yes, including power weapons", then the unit might actually be fairly priced.

I'm more excited for this codex than I've been about anything else in 40k since I began playing 10 years ago. It all comes down to the troops. I got into Guard because I like the idea of regular guys. I've used tanks, Sentinels, and Stormtroopers more and less over the years, but my interest in the army comes from the troops. This interest has at times been frustrating, because I'll build an army, but the Troops are often boring to play with and largely ineffective if not simply stationary and shooting.

Enter 5th ed Guard codex and associated rumors. Troops get cheaper, get grenades (now I don't have to sigh and say, "no, I didn't actually pay for grenades, they're just there to look cool"), get some extra options (combining into one unit), and get orders. I get more troops, get more powerful troops, and get some cool rules that play off their organizational background.

Sounds like a win for me, sorry for you guys who really just needed better rules for Stormtroopers and Ogryns, but I can't wait.

Secondarily, a thought on combining squads into one platoon unit:

I think this might have more tactical usefulness beyond kill-point missions.
1.) Weight of fire: 2 or 3 squads firing together will force a lot of saves against heavy/special weapon troopers and sergeants. A single squad would probably not ever force that save.

2.) Assault/Objective grabbing (this is assuming that Commissars are priced reasonably and can reliably prevent large squad from running from combat): If the officer and/or Commissar can get a power weapon/fist, and isn't an independent character, we'll be able to have 2 guys with real killing power cushioned by 20 or so other bodies. This isn't going to win against any dedicated assault troops, but it will give you a squad that can absorb some assaults from weakened enemy units and still hold an objective.

3.) Weapon protection: The special and heavy weapons on the squads will have extra bodies between them and the enemy's ill intents.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

CommissarKhaine wrote:we don't knwo exact rules (hell even points! ) for storm troops and ogryns...

We know the points costs for STs and Ogryns, 16 and 35, respectively. These are as solid as rumors go, nobody is attempting to contradict them. The only thing we don't know about Ogryns is whether or not the Bonehead will be an automatic upgrade or an additional cost, and whether or not that Bonehead can take wargear of any kind. If the answer to the latter question is "yes, including power weapons", then the unit might actually be fairly priced.

b

there was a rumor (i think the same one that said they were 35pts) that said the unit costs 115 for a bonehead and 2 ogryn, with additional ogryn at 35pts each. although i'd love to be wrong, i'm guessing the bonehead won't get any weapon upgrades. gw seems to be taking a measured approach to this codex, "giving" us cool things but at the cost of points. ogryns weren't worth taking at 25; with their rumored upgrades they'd be definitely worth taking at 25. at 35pts, it's a judgement call. same thing with the stormtroopers.

Sorry, but three heavy bolters stock is the way to go on the Russ in this Dex. Your question, Death is whats better, 6 russ's with sponsons or 7 with out. The real question is whats better? 12 heavy bolters, or one Russ. I know what I would pick, 36 str 5 shots for the win.

I also love the way the hydra looks, and am excited about it. 75 points is not too bad assuming 4 shots twin linked. Surely it must be. a stock chimera is 55 with a heavy bolter and mult-laser. 20 points for two twin linked auto-cannons is about right.

foil7102 wrote:I also love the way the hydra looks, and am excited about it. 75 points is not too bad assuming 4 shots twin linked. Surely it must be. a stock chimera is 55 with a heavy bolter and mult-laser. 20 points for two twin linked auto-cannons is about right.

It'll be good for light vehicle work, but I was running the numbers for it against Meqs and it's pretty sad, actually - less than 1 (~0.83) Meq if it's 4 shots TL'd and just over 1 (~1.11) Meq if it's 4x Heavy 2. It's still a pretty model and 75 points is a nice price tag. Seems to me that whether you take it or not is really dependent on how many skimmers you see in your metagame. (And if the excitement over Valks is any indication, we may be seeing a lot more of them.)

You know, I've got this plan.

Since my list does not change much (as far as rumors go), besides a 63 pt demo charge, if the new 'dex ends up as terrible as speculated when I have a printed copy in my hands. I'll simply ask each opponent; "Mind if I use the old Codex?" and break out the new one in the event that I am going to a tournie, where it would be required.

And if it doesn't suck, well, rainbows and sunshine for the guard...

My new guard army
6 basic Russ tanks with heavy bolter sponsons = 1020
6 sqauds of grunts = 300
Heavy and specials for the grunts = 150
Command and toys = 380

Sounds solid!

@foil - What are your thoughts on the new artillery?

foil7102 wrote:My new guard army
6 basic Russ tanks with heavy bolter sponsons = 1020
6 sqauds of grunts = 300
Heavy and specials for the grunts = 150
Command and toys = 380

pretty damn similar to mine, now that we've seen the points costs.

If I'm understanding lumbering behemoth correctly, then I think I will like standard leman russes with lascannons too. They can be much more mobile and with a battle cannon and a lascannon they can take on tanks pretty respectably.

If trip-heavy bolters can move and fire all three and the battle cannon I will retract my statement. But lumbering behemoth looks to me lik eit makes the turret weapon defensive, so no moving and firing more than one extra weapon.

Also, i think that 380 points of toys could be used to buy a manticore.

3x basilisks is pretty interesting too in my book. For 375 you get a unit that can hurt all types of vehicles, and does a fantastic job at killing infantry too. It can be deployed behind a squadron of 3 russes when facing shooty armies, and it can screen 3 russes against assaulty armies.


But yeah, your composition is looking to be where the power lies in the guard list. My friend hasn't quite finished gluing together his nob biker units. He better hurry up, he looks to have about 5 more weeks to play it.

As far as the arty goes I think all of it is overpriced by a large margin considering what you get. I don't know the specifics on the griffin. If it ignores cover that its a steal. If not, well I dont think I would take it. Manticores look cool for fun games, and death strikes look nifty for Apoc.

Personally as far as lascannon's go on Russ's I guess I am old scool, tanks kill infantry, infantry kill tanks. The 6 russ's put out 6 pie plates, and 54 heavy bolter shots a turn. (ork meat platters anyone?) That is all you need for hordes or power armor. My guys will be packing mostly lascanons and meltas depending on inliftration, unit placement, costs, ect. With a few auto canons thrown in.

Basic tactics is that the only way to deal with 6 av14 hulls in cover is in hand to hand, or melta range. Infantry is there to screen the tanks and pop armor or transports that get to froggy. If they want to duel at range Great! The only thing that would worry me would be max broadsides, with max hammerheads.

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/ has the IG Retailer Brief posted. Appears the official wording for Lumbering Behemoth is just turret weapon in addition to what you can normally fire. So no triple Heavy Bolters for the Russes unless you plan to keep them still.

warboss wrote:there was a rumor (i think the same one that said they were 35pts) that said the unit costs 115 for a bonehead and 2 ogryn, with additional ogryn at 35pts each. although i'd love to be wrong, i'm guessing the bonehead won't get any weapon upgrades. gw seems to be taking a measured approach to this codex, "giving" us cool things but at the cost of points. ogryns weren't worth taking at 25; with their rumored upgrades they'd be definitely worth taking at 25. at 35pts, it's a judgement call. same thing with the stormtroopers.

Exactly, its all about how you use them. This sort of thing I think is a symptom of the cost being relatively balanced. We just have to wait and see what the complete package on all of these are.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

foil7102 wrote:I also love the way the hydra looks, and am excited about it. 75 points is not too bad assuming 4 shots twin linked. Surely it must be. a stock chimera is 55 with a heavy bolter and mult-laser. 20 points for two twin linked auto-cannons is about right.

It'll be good for light vehicle work, but I was running the numbers for it against Meqs and it's pretty sad, actually - less than 1 (~0.83) Meq if it's 4 shots TL'd and just over 1 (~1.11) Meq if it's 4x Heavy 2. It's still a pretty model and 75 points is a nice price tag. Seems to me that whether you take it or not is really dependent on how many skimmers you see in your metagame. (And if the excitement over Valks is any indication, we may be seeing a lot more of them.)

Rumor at Warseer is that the Hydra is 2x Twin-linked Hydra Autocannons. This seems to be a fairly consistent report on the rules. So I think anyones dreams of 4 autocannons are out.

I think I'll do up mine in more of a Chimerax looking way, with the gun mounted where the Chimera turret normally goes, instead of at the rear. *Contemplation*

foil7102 wrote:As far as the arty goes I think all of it is overpriced by a large margin considering what you get. I don't know the specifics on the griffin. If it ignores cover that its a steal. If not, well I dont think I would take it. Manticores look cool for fun games, and death strikes look nifty for Apoc.

The rumor I've been hearing is that the colossus is an upgraded griffon mortar and that is how you gain the whole ignore cover thing.

My general feeling is that GW expects you to only take one of the special artillery pieces or leman russ variants and fill in the other two squadron places with basic vehicles. That they've included the option of taking more but have priced to dissuade you from doing so. It will take some trying out new units to see if they're worth while... if not in a couple months we'll only see Infantry horde armies.

I'm excited about the codex. I've put my guard on hold till the book comes out and when it does that will be probably one of two projects for my entire summer break. I've wondered how much of the criticism has been from non-guard players? Oh well if so. I know i will be greatly pleased.

warboss wrote:there was a rumor (i think the same one that said they were 35pts) that said the unit costs 115 for a bonehead and 2 ogryn, with additional ogryn at 35pts each. although i'd love to be wrong, i'm guessing the bonehead won't get any weapon upgrades. gw seems to be taking a measured approach to this codex, "giving" us cool things but at the cost of points. ogryns weren't worth taking at 25; with their rumored upgrades they'd be definitely worth taking at 25. at 35pts, it's a judgement call. same thing with the stormtroopers.

I'd be okay with the first part. It'd mean that the cost of a five-Ogryn squad with a Bonehead would go from 135 to 175 points. Realistically, as I used to field 6-8 Ogryns under the old list, I'd likely use 5-6 under the new one, possibly with a Commissar or some other Leadership-booster (like putting an Enginseer in there for the Ld8 and servo-arm hits)

aka_mythos wrote:I think I'll do up mine in more of a Chimerax looking way, with the gun mounted where the Chimera turret normally goes, instead of at the rear. *Contemplation*

I was never a big fan of the Chimerax/Chimedon look - hell, I'm not a fan of the turret-forward look of the existing Chimera - I'd rather mount it toward the back. But I know there are a lot of folks like you who were fans, so I can see more of those being converted in the near future.

aka_mythos wrote:My general feeling is that GW expects you to only take one of the special artillery pieces or leman russ variants and fill in the other two squadron places with basic vehicles. That they've included the option of taking more but have priced to dissuade you from doing so. It will take some trying out new units to see if they're worth while... if not in a couple months we'll only see Infantry horde armies.

That's an interesting take. Depending on what the "Squadron Leader" gets you for 50 points it could make this (expensive), but even more useful if a BS increase is in order. I mean - where do you want your BS4? On a bog-standard LRBT? Or on the specialized Russ that you want to make sure hits its target?